Shoulder Press

Jonny303

I think i asked this before but couldn find any replies.

Shoulder press - dumbells or barbell, how much of a disadvantage am i at doing seated instead of standing. i would think quite substantial

my home gym i cant do standing as ill break the roof:P

now if the weather is good, i can do them outside but not ideal at the best of times. If i did them kneeling would it compensate? although im not sure how hard they would be.

BossArky

Seated shoulder press is stricter. It prevents you gaining that extra bit of cheating momentum when standing & cheating with a push from the knees.

I think the ratio of total dumbbell pressing to barbell pressing is about 80%.

So, build up to pressing two 40kg dumbbells seated overhead. Now, head out onto the front lawn and press 100kg over your head standing with a barbell. It'll impress the neighbours

WolfForager

Stay away from barbells IMO. I tore my trap today doing shoulder press and if i had been using a barbell and not the dumbells i would have broken my neck. But then again the physio told me that my trap was a disaster waiting to happen..

Hanley

WolfForager wrote: »

Stay away from barbells IMO. I tore my trap today doing shoulder press and if i had been using a barbell and not the dumbells i would have broken my neck. But then again the physio told me that my trap was a disaster waiting to happen..

how...?

Jonny303

BossArky wrote: »

Seated shoulder press is stricter. It prevents you gaining that extra bit of cheating momentum when standing & cheating with a push from the knees.

I think the ratio of total dumbbell pressing to barbell pressing is about 80%.

So, build up to pressing two 40kg dumbbells seated overhead. Now, head out onto the front lawn and press 100kg over your head standing with a barbell. It'll impress the neighbours

haha. when u go seated, u have yourself any kind of back support or just go on a flat bench?

slicus ricus

Jonny303 wrote: »

haha. when u go seated, u have yourself any kind of back support or just go on a flat bench?

Best bet is to be seated with with a back support - ideally one thats at a right angle. I would use dumbells, as it is better in terms of isolating both shoulders and traps.

What are you looking to get out of your training? You want to gain size or lift for power? It makes a difference as to what exercises you do.

hanley wrote:

how...?

WolfForager, I would also like to know how so i will know not to do whatever you did!

Jonny303

hmmm, officially im lookinf for power, but its very hard for me to say im training without a care of size, so ideally both, if that makes sense

slicus ricus

Jonny303 wrote: »

hmmm, officially im lookinf for power, but its very hard for me to say im training without a care of size, so ideally both, if that makes sense

It sort of makes sense; perhaps you might define your training goals a bit more specifically, particularly relating to your shoulders to get the most suitable answer to your question.

If you're looking for power, you might be better off doing power cleans or using Olympic bars for standing shoulder press. Perhaps some of the other members might be able to help you out on that one as i'm no expert in powerlifting techniques.

If you want to focus on size i.e. more of a bodybuilding focus, you need to isolate the muscle group, which is why i would have originally suggested seated dumbell shoulder press.

Jonny303

well when its put like that, its most definatly strength im looking for. obviously some size will come with it n i would settle for that, bt my goals would really come down to strength

BossArky

If you want to focus on size ...

Size won't be any good to you when you are trapped down a darkened alleyway by a bunch of scumbags. That is the time when you will wish that you had focused on either strength or cardio.

BossArky

Jonny303 wrote: »

haha. when u go seated, u have yourself any kind of back support or just go on a flat bench?

Seated with a back support at almost a right angle.

podge57

shoulder pressing is like pissing, it can be done seated or standing, but one way is more manly :P

telemachus

BossArky wrote: »

Size won't be any good to you when you are trapped down a darkened alleyway by a bunch of scumbags. That is the time when you will wish that you had focused on either strength or cardio.

You'll be kicking yourself having missed the oppurtunity to clean and jerk a hoodlum above your head and present him to the nearest officer of the law

Jonny303

nice point.

out of curiousity, your muscle itself, when training for size rather than strength, what makes it so.

as in, if your training for size, if you were to take out your lat, i would think it would look more like a lamb chop than a fillet steak. ie quite fatty through, marbled affect

or would it just be more fluid held in the muscle itself

BossArky

telemachus wrote: »

You'll be kicking yourself having missed the oppurtunity to clean and jerk a hoodlum above your head and present him to the nearest officer of the law

See, this is the problem with Starting Strength.

Let me parapharse Mark Rippetoe .... "there is no situation where you could possibly need to push something with your back against a supporting structure" i.e. he prefers the shoulder press to bench press

Obviosuly he has never been set upon by 3 hoodlums in a darkened alleyway.

Pick up hoodlum A (with back against wall). Rotate to 90 degrees. Bench press towards hoodlum B&C, knocking both over. Run (fast).

slicus ricus

BossArky wrote: »

Size won't be any good to you when you are trapped down a darkened alleyway by a bunch of scumbags. That is the time when you will wish that you had focused on either strength or cardio.

As tempted as i am to do contrary, i will answer this in as pleasant a manner possible. I personally train to add musclemass so therefore i consider my focus to be on gaining size. In order to do so, i do a lot of exercises that primarily isolate the muscle group i am focusing on on a given day. As i progress with this type of training, i lift heavier and get stronger! Just because I don't focus on strength as my primary goal does not mean strength will not come as a by-product! Also, due to the diet required to gain musclemass, I need to do reasonable amounts of cardio to stay lean - again, my focus of my training is not on cardio but i still do it!

BossArky wrote: »

Seated with a back support at almost a right angle.

You do realise that seated press with back support at/almost at a right angle is aimed at isolating the deltoids and traps, and is thus primarily a bodybuilding exercise primarily used to gain size? You are aware that having back support at right angle is to prevent using other muscle groups to aid the lift? Let me spell it out - It's a pure size oriented exercise!! Apparently useless against scumbags using your logic! I find it quite amusing that you dissmiss a way of training then endorse an exercise used primarily for that type of training!!

Hanley

Bossarky, I wouldn't even bother.

slicus ricus

Hanley wrote: »

Bossarky, I wouldn't even bother.

I'm actually curious as to why you would say that? Fair enough, my response was smart-a$s in nature at parts but it was a reply to what i felt was a smart-a$s comment relating to something I posted. Granted, i don't want to continue posting in that manner so i wont.

I genuinly believe what I posted to be true regarding seated dumbell presses with the seat at a right angle being a muscle group isolation exercise. I'd be interested to hear why you might disagree?

BossArky

slicus ricus wrote: »

As tempted as i am to do contrary, i will answer this in as pleasant a manner possible. I personally train to add musclemass so therefore i consider my focus to be on gaining size. In order to do so, i do a lot of exercises that primarily isolate the muscle group i am focusing on on a given day. As i progress with this type of training, i lift heavier and get stronger! Just because I don't focus on strength as my primary goal does not mean strength will not come as a by-product! Also, due to the diet required to gain musclemass, I need to do reasonable amounts of cardio to stay lean - again, my focus of my training is not on cardio but i still do it!

You do realise that seated press with back support at/almost at a right angle is aimed at isolating the deltoids and traps, and is thus primarily a bodybuilding exercise primarily used to gain size? You are aware that having back support at right angle is to prevent using other muscle groups to aid the lift? Let me spell it out - It's a pure size oriented exercise!! Apparently useless against scumbags using your logic!

I guess you are taking a shot at me here. Do you think I am frowing upon people training for size rather than a bit of strength or cardio?

If yes --> I'm not. I don't care what other peoples goals are. They are interesting to hear about, but not my particular concern.

Yes, I realise that seated shoulder press is an isolation exercise. Did I say otherwise?

I predominatly perform a standing military barbell press when looking to increase strength not size.

slicus ricus wrote: »

I find it quite amusing that you dissmiss a way of training then endorse an exercise used primarily for that type of training!!

eh, ok I'm lost. Check my log and let me know if I am contradicting myself.

The OP asked a question about dumbbell vs barbell.

Hanley

slicus ricus wrote: »

I'm actually curious as to why you would say that? Fair enough, my response was smart-a$s in nature at parts but it was a reply to what i felt was a smart-a$s comment relating to something I posted. Granted, i don't want to continue posting in that manner so i wont.

I genuinly believe what I posted to be true regarding seated dumbell presses with the seat at a right angle being a muscle group isolation exercise. I'd be interested to hear why you might disagree?

What muscle are you isolating with seated shoulder presses?

slicus ricus

BossArky wrote: »

I guess you are taking a shot at me here. Do you think I am frowing upon people training for size rather than a bit of strength or cardio?

If yes --> I'm not. I don't care what other peoples goals are. They are interesting to hear about, but not my particular concern.

Fair enough, i thought you were mocking size oriented goals with the scumbags down an alleyway comment. Thanks for clearing it up and explaining that you weren't. No hard feelings mate.

BossArky wrote: »

Yes, I realise that seated shoulder press is an isolation exercise. Did I say otherwise?

I predominatly perform a standing military barbell press when looking to increase strength not size.

As stated previously, i (incorrectly) presumed you were against size oriented training and was consequently wondering why you endorsed the isolation exercise of seated shoulder press to the OP rather than a more compound type exercise given my aformentioned presumption.

BossArky

slicus ricus wrote: »

Fair enough, i thought you were mocking size oriented goals with the scumbags down an alleyway comment. Thanks for clearing it up and explaining that you weren't. No hard feelings mate.

As stated previously, i (incorrectly) presumed you were against size oriented training and was consequently wondering why you endorsed the isolation exercise of seated shoulder press to the OP rather than a more compound type exercise given my aformentioned presumption.

No worries

cardio,shoot me

this reminds me of my first day posting here got my a$$ owned by hanley and bobbyoleary

Jonny303

so, as to try and make a bit of sense of things.

for my training which goal is strength, standing military press is really what i want.

i had suspected this the whole time, so its really just a case of going into the front garden and letting rip.

on days tho that i cant, ive always done seated with an oly bar, im picking up that with the circumstances, and what im training for, this is probably my best option....correct

slicus ricus

Hanley wrote: »

What muscle are you isolating with seated shoulder presses?

If you read my posts, you will see that i said it was a muscle group isolation exercise. It isolates anterior and medial deltoids, as well as hitting the traps. Use of the 90 degree angle seat minimises use of lats and other muscles one would use in doing a standing barbell press. Also, use of dumbbells rather than barbell ensures left and right groups are isolated equally.

Hanley

slicus ricus wrote: »

[......] isolation exercise[....] isolates anterior and medial deltoids, as well as hitting the traps. [....] use of lats...in doing a standing barbell press

Oooook....

You can't ISOLATE multiple muscles at the same time. By it's very nature, isolation is exclusive. In addition, with dumbbell presses, your triceps are being hit to extend your arm. So now it would seem we have an "isolation" exercise which hits multiple muscle groups. In my book, that's a compound exercise. I take it you would not agree?

I don't think I've ever felt my lats working doing standing presses. Core, sure. But lats no. Besides, if you are using your lats, does it mean your shoulders are working less? And if they're not working less, then why is it a bad thing??

Hanley

Jonny303 wrote: »

so, as to try and make a bit of sense of things.

for my training which goal is strength, standing military press is really what i want.

i had suspected this the whole time, so its really just a case of going into the front garden and letting rip.

on days tho that i cant, ive always done seated with an oly bar, im picking up that with the circumstances, and what im training for, this is probably my best option....correct

Man it doesn't matter.... all things being equal, if you get stronger seated, it sohuld carryover to standing, tho not to the same extent that if you got stronger standing your seated would improve.

The limiting factor for most people when it comes to standing press strength is their core and supporting strength.

The simple solution is just to do both. I don't see why it has to be "either/or".

slicus ricus

Hanley wrote: »

You can't ISOLATE multiple muscles at the same time. By it's very nature, isolation is exclusive. In addition, with dumbbell presses, your triceps are being hit to extend your arm. So now it would seem we have an "isolation" exercise which hits multiple muscle groups. In my book, that's a compound exercise. I take it you would not agree?

It not hitting multiple muscle groups, it's hitting the one muscle group - deltoids and traps. Its difficult enough to do any deltoid exercise without hitting traps, which is why the majority of people train them on the same day. I'm sure you know this but "trap" is short for trapezius deltoid, and is thus part of the deltoid group. Maybe you disagree with my use of the word isolate but i'd imagine you can understand what i'm getting at.

I accept you point about the triceps but i personally would concentrate as much as possible on using deltoids rather and try to minimise use of triceps to complete the motion. I've never felt any sign of DOMs or even strain on my triceps following a delts/traps session.

Hanley wrote: »

Besides, if you are using your lats, does it mean your shoulders are working less? And if they're not working less, then why is it a bad thing??

Surely it would mean your shoulders are working less if you are using your lats?

Hanley

slicus ricus wrote: »

It not hitting multiple muscle groups, it's hitting the one muscle group - deltoids and traps. Its difficult enough to do any deltoid exercise without hitting traps, which is why the majority of people train them on the same day. I'm sure you know this but "trap" is short for trapezius deltoid, and is thus part of the deltoid group. Maybe you disagree with my use of the word isolate but i'd imagine you can understand what i'm getting at.

I accept you point about the triceps but i personally would concentrate as much as possible on using deltoids rather and try to minimise use of triceps to complete the motion. I've never felt any sign of DOMs or even strain on my triceps following a delts/traps session.

So you admit there are 3 muscle groups being worked;
-delts
-traps
-tris

But you still think it's an isolation exercise?

Surely it would mean your shoulders are working less if you are using your lats?

Why?

Hanley

slicus ricus wrote: »

I'm sure you know this but "trap" is short for trapezius deltoid, and is thus part of the deltoid group.

I must admit I've never heard that....

slicus ricus

Hanley wrote: »

I must admit I've never heard that....

Hmm, perhaps i'm not correct with that statement - i always remember a trainer in a gym i used to go to describing it as so. I'm gonna check that up later. If i'm wrong, forget i ever mentioned such a statement!

Hanley

slicus ricus wrote: »

Hmm, perhaps i'm not correct with that statement - i always remember a trainer in a gym i used to go to describing it as so. I'm gonna check that up later. If i'm wrong, forget i ever mentioned such a statement!

I wiki'd it cos I was a bit thrown myself, and it seems to be called "musculus trapezius"

The deltoid is known as such because of it resembles the greek letter delta (a triangle).

The trapezius is known as such because of it's trapezoidal (sp) shape.

They're two completely different muscles, with different functions, tho the use of them does sometimes overlap. I'd say they trainer was probably a bit off when he said that to ya!

Mikel

Aren't the traps the major muscle worked when you do shrugs?
If that's the direction they contract is it possible to use them to push overhead, wouldn't that be a different direction of contraction?
Maybe they are used to stabilise during the press.

slicus ricus

Hanley wrote: »

I wiki'd it cos I was a bit thrown myself, and it seems to be called "musculus trapezius"

The deltoid is known as such because of it resembles the greek letter delta (a triangle).

The trapezius is known as such because of it's trapezoidal (sp) shape.

They're two completely different muscles, with different functions, tho the use of them does sometimes overlap. I'd say they trainer was probably a bit off when he said that to ya!

Yep, just read the wiki article there, spot on mate. This thread has got me thinking that it would be a good idea to learn about the various muscle groups individually and be more aware of the components of each group. In doing so, it's bound to evoke thinking as to the motions involved in lifts and ensure that no aspect of any muscle group is neglected.

Hanley, as far a the seated shoulder press goes; fair enough, my use of the term isolation was incorrect in the context I applied it. Perhaps this would be a better description - it is a compound exercise which focuses on the deltoid and trapezius muscle groups, while indirectly employing the triceps! We agreed on that?

WolfForager

Hanley wrote: »

how...?

In a nutshell; Physio told me that my trap was too long around the neck (through years of bad posture) and my left shoulder sticks out a bit too much. My lower trap wasn't strong enough to compensate for this and yesterday the strain was just too much for it so it tore. She said it was just a matter of time and that now that i've spotted it i can work on it and make it "stronger than ever". Tbh i even notice now that my left shoulder is skinnier than my right.

blackgold>>

slicus ricus wrote:

It not hitting multiple muscle groups, it's hitting the one muscle group - deltoids and traps. Its difficult enough to do any deltoid exercise without hitting traps, which is why the majority of people train them on the same day. I'm sure you know this but "trap" is short for trapezius deltoid, and is thus part of the deltoid group. Maybe you disagree with my use of the word isolate but i'd imagine you can understand what i'm getting at.

I accept you point about the triceps but i personally would concentrate as much as possible on using deltoids rather and try to minimise use of triceps to complete the motion. I've never felt any sign of DOMs or even strain on my triceps following a delts/traps session

.

hanley wrote:

So you admit there are 3 muscle groups being worked;
-delts
-traps
-tris

But you still think it's an isolation exercise?

slicus ricus wrote:

Surely it would mean your shoulders are working less if you are using your lats?

hanley wrote:

Why?

hanley wrote:

So now it would seem we have an "isolation" exercise which hits multiple muscle groups. In my book, that's a compound exercise. I take it you would not agree?

The movement itself is a compound movement.
The muscle group that is being targeted is the deltoid.
You could say "muscle group isolation exercise", it makes sense in a way.The primary muscle intended for this exercise is the deltoid.Obviously the biceps assist in the movement, but so do other muscles when worked in isolation.
More than one muscle can be involved in an isolation "movement".
Your using the term isolation wrong I suppose. lol