steve walsh reffing

happyhappy

steve walsh from new zealand is ref next saturday for the welsh game, will it make any difference?? he likes to be the centre of attention all the time, i hope he doesn't blow the game to a standstill. any opinions??

Snickers Man

RTE said that although Walsh was originally due to take it, the ref will now be Wayne Barnes.

Hope so. Walsh is a lunatic.

Wayne Barnes is reffing.

Steve Walsh is no longer a referee,he arrived drunk at a reffing seminar last month and it was the last straw.His contract was terminated.

Padjoe

So whats Wayne Barnes like?

Peter B

Padjoe wrote: »

So whats Wayne Barnes like?

New Zealanders know him well. They blame the last world cup on his reffing during NZ vs France.

Stealdo

Barnes should be fine, will be strict at the breakdown, but possibly second to Rolland in standing. Walsh would have been a disaster liable to do anything to be noticed.

chupacabra

Ive never liked Barnes, his mind seems to wander now and then and he tends to miss some massive calls also with enough crowd pressure he can make some terrible home town desicions, thank god for assistant refs is all i can say.

Fishtits

Anyone know who the assistants are?

(too lazy to search, + seeking opinions)

Stev_o

Peter B wrote: »

New Zealanders know him well. They blame the last world cup on his reffing during NZ vs France.

They should blame themselves for being terrible then they'd go places.

Barnes is a good ref and i like the way he wants the game to be played, quick and wide. Problem is if we go into this match and decide to kill it from the start he'll ping us all day for going of our feet. I hope we don;t get complacent considering all the ref's last weekend didn't care about players sealing off the ball.

Podge_irl

I quite like Barnes and he handled last season's Leinster-Munster game admirably. However, he killed Munster in one or two HEC group games this year, so that could be a problem. I like how he referees the breakdown, but the Ireland backrow might not which could be a worry.

twinytwo

Peter B wrote: »

New Zealanders know him well. They blame the last world cup on his reffing during NZ vs France.

Two words.....freddie michalak:rolleyes:

ALH-06

I'll never forgive Steve Walsh for blowing up too early when G Murphy got that intercept against France in Croker 2 years ago. France knocked on and instead of letting Murphy score off his subsequent intercept, Walsh blew up for a scrum.

He apologised to Murphy straight after, knowing he clearly shouldn't have stopped play. What good is a f**king apology when it costs a nation a Grandslam? Absolute moran, good riddance.

Podge_irl

ALH-06 wrote: »

I'll never forgive Steve Walsh for blowing up too early when G Murphy got that intercept against France in Croker 2 years ago. France knocked on and instead of letting Murphy score off his subsequent intercept, Walsh blew up for a scrum.

He apologised to Murphy straight after, knowing he clearly shouldn't have stopped play. What good is a f**king apology when it costs a nation a Grandslam? Absolute moran, good riddance.

He blew because Ireland were getting no clear advantage, he wasn't to know that Murphy was about to get the ball. It all happened quite quickly and he was already about to blow up when the intercept occured. I don't see how anyone can have valid complaints about, it was unfortuante but it happens.

Darlie

I'd take Barnes over Walsh any day of the week. He can be quite ruthless with attacking teams not staying on their feet at the breakdown, but that may be more of a problem for Wales than us on Saturday. He also seems, despite a number of high profile exceptions, to be less of a home town ref than some of the other leading lights.

Tim Robbins

Darlie wrote: »

I'd take Barnes over Walsh any day of the week. He can be quite ruthless with attacking teams not staying on their feet at the breakdown, but that may be more of a problem for Wales than us on Saturday. He also seems, despite a number of high profile exceptions, to be less of a home town ref than some of the other leading lights.

I think people make a big deal about whose reffing. The laws don't change with different refs. A scrum half doesn't start passing better with a different ref and a winger doesn't run any faster.

The main difference is in the way the ref communicates with players and players at that level should be able to adjust their game very quickly accordingly.

[Jackass]

Steve Walsh? That hollywood wannabe ass clown?

Hope to never see him ref a game again as long as I live. Complete twat who gets too involved and wants the spot light - thinks he's one of the stars of the show when reffing.

Hope that's true that he's been kicked out of the game, he's absolutely shocking and a complete twat to boot.

Darlie

Tim Robbins wrote: »

I think people make a big deal about whose reffing. The laws don't change with different refs. A scrum half doesn't start passing better with a different ref and a winger doesn't run any faster.

The main difference is in the way the ref communicates with players and players at that level should be able to adjust their game very quickly accordingly.

Agree with what your trying to say. Of course the laws don't change, but the interpretation most definitely does, particularly between northern and southern hemisphere refs. While the way a ref officiates may not make a scrum half pass faster or a winger run faster, it can definitely influence how quickly the bass is made available to be passed by the scrum half or how much space the winger has when he gets the ball in hand. At the top level, its a game of inches. How a ref interprets the breakdown can result in a difference of yards.

Tim Robbins

Darlie wrote: »

How a ref interprets the breakdown can result in a difference of yards.

I'd like to see some statistical analysis that supported this. Because I don't believe it.

At lower levels, you might have a ref who isn't very fit and gets to breakdown too slow, so I can understand why you'd get big differences.

But I don't think it's a case that say Rolland gives the tackler 0.5 seconds to rollaway, Owens 0.6 etc etc.

I would imagine they ping when:
1. They tell the tackler to roll away and he doesn't.
2. The tackler is preventing the ball coming back.
3. The tackler is just blatantly not making any effort to roll back.

Most refs ref the breakdown, following a system known as TAB.

1. Tackler must roll away - that's the first thing they look for.
2. The Arriving players must come through the get - that's the second thing they look for.
3. The Ball carrier must release. - that's the third thing they look for.

If it was a case that Southern Hemisphere refs do it the other way around, then I'd say fine, there is without doubt a difference in interpretation.

But I see none. I think it's just something that plays in people's heads.

comments?

Darlie

All good points there Tim. However the main point I was trying to make was in relation to players remaining on their feet at the breakdown. If a defender goes in off his feet, any ref worth his salt will ping. Attackers tend to get away with this more unless its blatant, which quickens the availability of ball for the next phase.
Barnes would be one of the refs more likely to blow for this offence.

sm.org

[Jackass] wrote: »

Steve Walsh? That hollywood wannabe ass clown?

Hope to never see him ref a game again as long as I live. Complete twat who gets too involved and wants the spot light - thinks he's one of the stars of the show when reffing.

Hope that's true that he's been kicked out of the game, he's absolutely shocking and a complete twat to boot.

Couldn't agree more. That fiasco with Shane Horgan on the last Lions tour should have been the end of him.

Fair play to Shaggy , personally I would have found it hard not to deck him.

jdivision

Barnes is poor but Steve Walsh is terrible

Tim Robbins

Darlie wrote: »

All good points there Tim. However the main point I was trying to make was in relation to players remaining on their feet at the breakdown. If a defender goes in off his feet, any ref worth his salt will ping.

It depends. If he goes off his feet and it has material effect he will ping, if not he won't unless the player has been acting foolishly or dangerously, he won't.

Sometimes a player can fall and fans will go mad claiming he went off his feet but a ref should only really ping if it has materiality.

There's a huge amount of offense that don't get punished in Rugby and sometimes as a fan you can be screaming "not releasing", but a ref won't ping for this unless it has materiality.

Tim Robbins

jdivision wrote: »

Barnes is poor...

Without sounding ageist, I think the main thing going against Barnes is his age. I think there's a better communication between players and refs if the ref is slightly older than the players.

Barnes is young enough to still be playing rugby.

suppafly

[Jackass] wrote: »

Steve Walsh? That hollywood wannabe ass clown?

Hope to never see him ref a game again as long as I live. Complete twat who gets too involved and wants the spot light - thinks he's one of the stars of the show when reffing.

Hope that's true that he's been kicked out of the game, he's absolutely shocking and a complete twat to boot.

totaly agree. Really hope its true also. Biggest nobhead of a ref ever.

jdivision

Tim Robbins wrote: »

Without sounding ageist, I think the main thing going against Barnes is his age. I think there's a better communication between players and refs if the ref is slightly older than the players.

Barnes is young enough to still be playing rugby.

Nah, I hate his interpretation of the breakdown

Tim Robbins

jdivision wrote: »

Nah, I hate his interpretation of the breakdown

Could you be more specific?

Stev_o

Tim Robbins wrote: »

Without sounding ageist, I think the main thing going against Barnes is his age. I think there's a better communication between players and refs if the ref is slightly older than the players.

Barnes is young enough to still be playing rugby.

Dunno about that Tim i think he is a very good communicator and is probably only one of the few ref's who will explain to players what they'v done wrong and the quickly explain the situation. Alot of ref's ( Im looking at you Nigel Owens) will do the "Go away now" approach which leads to one team being confused on what they are being penalised for.

Here's a good example of Barnes taking control :

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BekwRb9778E

Serenity Now!

Tim Robbins wrote: »

Could you be more specific?

very doubtful

Tim Robbins

Stev_o wrote: »

Dunno about that Tim i think he is a very good communicator and is probably only one of the few ref's who will explain to players what they'v done wrong and the quickly explain the situation. Alot of ref's ( Im looking at you Nigel Owens) will do the "Go away now" approach which leads to one team being confused on what they are being penalised for.

Here's a good example of Barnes taking control :

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BekwRb9778E

I can't see the clip at work but will check at home later. The counter argument to what you just said is that players know what they've done wrong i.e they are not under 14s and by asking the ref or engaging the ref they are just slowing the game down.

The only objective factors with the quality of reffing are:
1. Fitness - all international refs are way fitter than J2 - J4 refs.
2. Their knowledge of the law - all international refs would know the law book inside out.
3. General management - to remain calm, clear and firm in communication etc.

In all these factors internationals refs are all about the same.
One of the biggest differentiators imo is their voice. Some refs just have very annoying voices or habbits (Spreadbury for example) others such as Paul Honis had a great passion and drive for their game. To the game itself this factor should be inconsequential but to the spectator listening to someone annoying for 80 mins can grate on your head.

I know this sounds all a bit stupid, but if there were categorical differences between refs, they're be something categorically wrong with the game itself.

Your thoughts...

Darlie

Fair points again Tim. However, that would beg the question as to why do all professional teams run video analysis of referees?

curts82

Darlie wrote: »

Fair points again Tim. However, that would beg the question as to why do all professional teams run video analysis of referees?

I saw one recently, video analysis of Nigel owens, and what it showed was unreal!! I personally don' think Barnes is a good ref, his reffing of the ruck is poor!

Tim Robbins

Darlie wrote: »

Fair points again Tim. However, that would beg the question as to why do all professional teams run video analysis of referees?

That's a very good question.

IMO There'd be two things they be looking for:

1.
Communication:

Welsh refs stick their hand up before the lineout is thrown in, whereas Irish refs only stick it up after the catcher has caught the lineout and returned to the ground.

Personally, I prefer the way the Welsh refs do it.

2.
Subtle differences between refs.

And here's where you're probably right. I remember Ireland V France in the WC, Hayse was boring in the entire match and White didn't pick up. It came out clearly in the Video camera which was a sophisticated overhead shot, and I'm sure White noticed himseld after the game. But I am wondering did the Irish team do their homework on White before?

It's a valid point. I'm not involved at a high enough level of the game to give a more intelligent answer, but it would be very interesting if a video analyst could shed some light on it.

I'd just be a bit skeptical of fans with limited techinical knowledge thinking there's a massive difference between interpretation of the breakdown and there's no such thing as ref assesors etc.

Tim Robbins

curts82 wrote: »

I saw one recently, video analysis of Nigel owens, and what it showed was unreal!!

Where was this video analysis? Who did it?

nick_nz

Wayne Barnes. Hmmm, wouldn’t say he cost us that quarter against the French, but he is an idiot. Barnes likes to stamp his authority on any game he referees. Expect a load of penalties in this one.....

curts82

I cant really say to tell ya the truth! But is unreal the way it was done! It showed him in 3 different matches and thae same thing for his first pen in 3 matches!!

Tim Robbins

curts82 wrote: »

I cant really say to tell ya the truth! But is unreal the way it was done! It showed him in 3 different matches and thae same thing for his first pen in 3 matches!!

So?
Lads, I think there's a bit of mysticism going on here.
All refs make mistakes. All refs also ping for things that players don't see and fans don't fully understand. Even at the lowest levels of reffing you get assesed, usually by an X - Ref from your branch. When you move up the ranks, you are assesed by people from different associations and countries.

It's just improbable that there would be categorical differences between refs.

Erin Go Brath

Am I the only one who finds it a bit disconcerting thats theres a thread specifically dedicated to the referee and the impact that could have on us?

My own opinion is that the referee is not as important as he used to be. The Video ref takes many of the decisions out out of the hands of the referee which has to be a good thing.

Eoin

The video ref can only make decisions about the in-goal area, so it doesn't seem like that many decisions are taken out of the hands of the ref. I do think there are subtle differences in how different ref's interpret the laws, but any professional team should be able to work around them. One minor example is when Quinlan did one of his bloody GAA catches last weekend, and dropped it. I would say that other international ref's would have said it was a knock on.

Tim Robbins

eoin wrote: »

The video ref can only make decisions about the in-goal area, so it doesn't seem like that many decisions are taken out of the hands of the ref. I do think there are subtle differences in how different ref's interpret the laws, but any professional team should be able to work around them. One minor example is when Quinlan did one of his bloody GAA catches last weekend, and dropped it. I would say that other international ref's would have said it was a knock on.

I didn't see it. But it's either a knock on or it isn't. Law is very clear there. There is no interpretation.

Sometimes, a ball go back and then bounce and then go forward. Fans will yell knock on but that's not a knock on.

Eoin

It dropped straight down. If I am remembering it correctly, it was from a kick-off and Quinlan wasn't too far from his line, so the ref must have been a good bit away. I still think that some referees would call it, while some wouldn't. I don't believe that every referee will make exactly the same call in every situation.

curts82

Tim Robbins wrote: »

So?
Lads, I think there's a bit of mysticism going on here.
All refs make mistakes. All refs also ping for things that players don't see and fans don't fully understand. Even at the lowest levels of reffing you get assesed, usually by an X - Ref from your branch. When you move up the ranks, you are assesed by people from different associations and countries.

It's just improbable that there would be categorical differences between refs.

from the way ur talking I'm guessing ur a ref urself!! I can't actually rem ya mans name or wat he called it exactly but his first pen in 3 matches were the same!!! at the lowest levels ur don't really get assessed that much!

RuggieBear

less of the text speak please.

Tim Robbins

at the lowest levels ur don't really get assessed that much!

That's correct. But are we debating refs at the lower levels or higher levels?

Tim Robbins

eoin wrote: »

It dropped straight down. If I am remembering it correctly, it was from a kick-off and Quinlan wasn't too far from his line, so the ref must have been a good bit away. I still think that some referees would call it, while some wouldn't. I don't believe that every referee will make exactly the same call in every situation.

I think if you got statistics of 100 close calls for knock ons, you'd struggle to find correlations bwteen close calls and refs behaving differently to each other.

Stev_o

Well there's alot of subtle differences between ref's and usually you can tell what kind of game it will be by who is reffing. For example White is notorious for being whistle mad and see's everything, he is also known to detest playing advantages and thus you get a very stop start match that lacks flow.


The biggest problem in the international scene though is communication with team's who don't have English as their first language. Nigel Owens is one of the worst culprits of not caring about the language barrier (most ref's get a few lines in French eg hands away, ruck etc) but Owens thinks that if he shouts as loud as possible with his Welsh accent the French will understand exactly what's going on.

Stev_o

If anyone is watching the Italian match you'll see one of the worst decisions to award a try by a ref. France just on the try line and a player off his feet down in the ruck just picks up the ball and puts it on the try line. Now that is a penalty to Italy for hands in the ruck by no Rollaind thinks that is a try:rolleyes: