My Mother and The Cult!

Mr. Incognito

I couldn't even be arsed going unreg for this. The more people that know the better as far as I'm concerned.

My mother- quite frankly is losing her marbles. For a number of years she has been going to this nut-job Christina Gallagher in Achill island. All well and good except my mother lives in Kerry, works as a primary school teacher and then is up at 4am Saturday morning for the bus and not back down to Kerry unitil 10 pm the next night. They fast all day (so they are more tired and open to manipulation) and say prayers (chanted into submisison). She is then worn out doing her correcting on Sunday.

This charlaton, cheap con-artist was recently forced to hand back money from people she conned and has a string of luxury properties. Linky:

http://www.independent.ie/topics/Christina+Gallagher

My mother gave us all rosary beads for Chrimbo- two guesses where they came from and asked us to donate. I told her flat out- no fricking way.
You cannot talk to her about it as we are attacking the Virgin Mary, the pamphlets my mother bring home reflect a circling the wagons approach- real Cassandra of Troy- "The end is nigh", no-one believes us yada yada yada. people think this cheap two bit fraud is an actual prophet and she is milking them of their life savings and energy. I don't really give a damn about the woman but MY MOTHER, who used to be a bright, intelligent woman has been lured by her lifelong faith into this stupid, useless, greedy cult.

My parents seperated due to my fathers alcohol problems and then last year my Father died of Cancer after being off the booze five years waiting for his angel to come home as he put it. My mother took it very hard and has retreated behind this mumbo jumbo. She is practically convinced the end of the world is only round the corner. The straw came this morning when she told me eternity is a long time in hell and I had to laugh it off and then tell her that the people that genuinely love her are worried about her. It's is actually impossible to talk to her- she is totally brainwashed. I guess it doesn't help that I'm as unreligious as you could get and think that ALL religious are charlatons peddling opportunistic rubbish.

I wanted to have the local priest come around and talk to her but my sisters over-ruled me. They are concerned that, look it's her social life and leave her at it and seem to want to bury their heads in the sand. In the mean time my mother is wearing herself out with all this travel, fasting and god knows what else. I guess I just love my Mother and I'm worried. At first I thought the comradere and friends she made would do her good but the whole thing is a bit sinister for my liking and she's become a different person recently with her increasin paranoia and distrust of mainstream society fuelled by this cult.

I really really don't know how to approach this one. Half of me wants to make a marty of Ms Gallagher but I just want my Mother back and let that cheap vile woman to her own devices.

Nevyn

What type relationship with her local parish priest does you mother have ?
Is he still her confessor ?
I would suggest going to who ever he is and talking to him about what is going on,
maybe he will be able to help you hold an intervention.

LeixlipRed

I would definitely recommend getting the parish priest involved. Even if you have to go behind your sisters' backs. I'm sure he would have experience of counselling people effected by these scam artists. Plus I'm sure your mother, as a religious person, would be more open to the influences of a PP as opposed to a lay-person. Do so before she ends up donating the house to them or something ridiculous!

seamus

If you think she's that far gone, it would definitely be worth at this point seeing what you can do to protect her assets and prevent her from donating land or money to these people. If you're that worried, I would suggest that you don't wait for the whole family to agree before taking action.

jim o doom

I'd go with Thaed on this one. I'm not religious myself, but your mother clearly is, so perhaps an intervention by a man of the cloth or a sister or something like that might help the situation..

Only problem I see with that, is I know of a few religious sorts who don't hold much truck with priests etc due to their callings chequered past..

Mr. Incognito

Thaed, I'd have no idea to be honest. I live in Dublin and the only time I met the priest was when he called in for the wake and for the years mass in the house- seemed a nice skin but it would defo be a case of the devil you know if I'm approaching the priest.

Intervention may be an idea but it's going to be hard to convince my sisters to go for it to be honest- I reckon I'll give the parish priest a call. I see the Archbishop's recently issued a decree saying that she is operating completely outside the church and people should stay away from her.

LeixlipRed

As you said there, google leads me to believe that she has been completely ostracised by the church. I had a quick look at her website there as well, scary stuff. Contact the PP immediately!

LegacyUser

Fire with fire. She's being manipulated, you're going to do it for her own good instead:

You need to appeal to your mother's intelligence/independance of thought here. Have a big think about how u can do this. Interventions do NOT work when it comes to predatory cult groups. DO NOT FIGHT WITH HER ABOUT THE CULT. You don't want to drive her further into it as a refuge away from you/your family's non-approval. Ditch the anomosity, let her let you in.

You need to make her think it's her idea to leave.

Do something like being accepting of her choice and let her know you're supporting it because it's the "Christian/Catholic" thing that God would want you to do. The pure God, as taught from Childhood. Not her Cult basically. You're not lookin to wind her up with this, but it will show her a fulfilling existance outside of her group. I dunno, just an example.

I was involved as part of a group of friends in getting a friend out of a similar situation (an actual cult though). They took her/her family for everything for 3 years . Im not proud of it but we basically had to manipulate her thinking away from the group by feigning an interest in it, then exhibiting a much better existance comparably in our own hobbies/pursuits. She eventually made her "own" decision to leave.

Forgot to add this link:

http://www.reachouttrust.org/articles/relatedsubjects/helpcult.htm

May be relevant

Nevyn

Mr. Incognito wrote: »

Thaed, I'd have no idea to be honest. I live in Dublin and the only time I met the priest was when he called in for the wake and for the years mass in the house- seemed a nice skin but it would defo be a case of the devil you know if I'm approaching the priest.

Intervention may be an idea but it's going to be hard to convince my sisters to go for it to be honest- I reckon I'll give the parish priest a call. I see the Archbishop's recently issued a decree saying that she is operating completely outside the church and people should stay away from her.

Given that the person in question has been denounced surely the parish priest
will jump to tend to your mother before she becomes a lost sheep.

I know it's hard when you are not religious yourself but the church can and does do good work in small parishes and sometimes they just need to know and be asked to get invovled.

Mr. Incognito

Thanks for that link on the cult stuff

Normally they will have told them that you will react violently, as mentioned above and do everything you can to take them away from the 'truth' or enlightenment of the group. If and when they see you reacting like that, it will only confirm that they are in a true group and you are 'of the devil'.

I got a text not 5 minutes ago from my mother saying "The devil has you". I mean ffs.

Nevyn

If your mother thinks you are not in "a state of grace" then she will be suspicious of what
you have to day and why you are taking the actions you are taking.
You are not going to be able to reach her with non religous logic or would it be wise
to try and strip all religious and spiritual belief from her.

Did you mother do any grief counseling after your father died ?

Try and access the parish bereavement team via the parish priest for her.

OS119

if she's losing her marbles just get her sectioned and get a power of attourney over her assests.

no poiunt arguing with her, if she's a nutter she'll never see sense.

do the right thing, if she thanks you for it later, then great.

markesmith

Mr. Incognito wrote: »

I got a text not 5 minutes ago from my mother saying "The devil has you". I mean ffs.

Call the parish priest in. Seriously, that text almost sounds like a threat. It sounds like maybe your Mum hasn't gotten over your Dad's death. Either way, she's in a vulnerable state, and is being taken advantage of by a group of charlatans. This is Scientology-type stuff.

I'd get the priest involved, end of. Sinister stuff.

Mr. Incognito

Yes lock up my mother. Nice one pal. No offense but are you chicken oriental. She's religions and has been brainwashed to believe that we're all going to hell unless she's on a bus praying for us. She's not looking for Colnel Mustard in the study with a knife.

markesmith

Mr. Incognito wrote: »

Yes lock up my mother. Nice one pal. No offense but are you chicken oriental. She's religions and has been brainwashed to believe that we're all going to hell unless she's on a bus praying for us. She's not looking for Colnel Mustard in the study with a knife.

What?

IRISH RAIL

Mr Incognito
You need to go to some professionals for this
there are people out there who specalise in anti cult operations.
Its not as bad as it could be as she isnt living in a locked up commune yet.
the biggest problem is the brainwashing its easy to "make the car not start"
so she cant get down there, but the mind control is another problem you will need psyciatric professionals to help with this.
I did know someone who was involved loosley with this kind of work I dont think I have his number though.
There is another problem
although you dont care who knows this fruitcake might well be monotoring this site people like that have press agents who scour the net all day promoting thier weird ****, Maybe an edit to take the details of counties etc and where you are wouldnt do any harm its easy for them to put two and two together and suck your mother in more to the point of no contact with anyone.
Also I would go down and have a chat with her bank manager tell him whats happening and ask him can he contact you if any large withdrwls are being made, If the fruitcake cant get her money she might lose interest with your mam. Bank managers are really good with this and wil gaurantee confidentiality.
Personally Im not catholic so I wouldnt know what to do about the priest thing In Israel there are groups who specalise in "converting" maybe the catholic church have something similar I dont know.

Just thank your stars she can still come home and she is not locked up in a commune.

LadyMayBelle

OS119 wrote: »

if she's losing her marbles just get her sectioned and get a power of attourney over her assests.

no poiunt arguing with her, if she's a nutter she'll never see sense.

do the right thing, if she thanks you for it later, then great.

Markesmith: I think this was the quote Mr. Incognito was annoyed at. (and rightly so imo)

As has been said, it's could be time for professionals to step in. It is good though that is still living at home and not shipped off somewhere. But it could be a next step, even disconnecting from her family as ye will be considered to be a negative influence on her (which we know isn't true but these cults twist peoples thinking.

Good luck. I have had family and friends in a similar situation and it was tough going.

yellowcurl

IRISH RAIL wrote: »

Mr Incognito
You need to go to some professionals for this
there are people out there who specalise in anti cult operations.
Its not as bad as it could be as she isnt living in a locked up commune yet.
the biggest problem is the brainwashing its easy to "make the car not start"
so she cant get down there, but the mind control is another problem you will need psyciatric professionals to help with this.

Totally agree. There are organisations in Ireland that deal with this specifically, even have travelled to oz etc. to bring back people who were sucked into cults there. The best thing you can do is get the professionals involved. There may be some things that you don't feel comfortable doing or wouldn't have an idea about so it's better to have the services of these people available.

themadchef

Mr Incognito, i really feel for you.

I know you use the word cult and quite rightly too IMO, but it's so hard to get some people to see it in that light. Holy Ireland and all that jazz.

I live in Achill. Ive listened to every House of prayer story you can imagine.

By all accounts she's very charismatic but the bottom line is she does not have the backing of the church. Get your priest or someone your mother has faith in to talk to her. A crazy idea would actually be to go with her sometime. Say you want to see for yourself. Get an idea of how they are getting into her head and without your mothers knowledge confront them with a big list of questions.

My personal take on it. If she is a true prophet (if there is such a thing) why the need for all the money? Even a big place of prayer like that only needs a certain amount of donations. There's the shop, the restaurant, the rooms.. loads of ways to extract every last cent.

I think your mother needs you more than ever. I think you need to fight fire with fire. Your local PP is your best bet IMO, write to the bishop if you have to. Actually getting down there and making it clear to them that you are not going to let them clean your mother out should make her less of an easy target IMO also.

People come here from all over the world. Whatever shes doing, it's paying off at the expense of people like your mother. Be proactive, don't wait till the cash is gone and the house has a "for sale" sign on it.

Best of luck

banshee_bones

themadchef wrote: »

I think your mother needs you more than ever. I think you need to fight fire with fire. Your local PP is your best bet IMO, write to the bishop if you have to. Actually getting down there and making it clear to them that you are not going to let them clean your mother out should make her less of an easy target IMO also.

As other posters have mentioned i think the PP is your best bet. I dont know if going down to Achill is the best of ideas, if you go down there threatening that they wont get a penny they may suck her further in alot quicker and it will probably be alot harder to extract her from this cult if this goes down.

This sounds like a terrible situation to be in and i feel for you OP, best of luck.

BB

mikemac

It's been said before but talk to the Parish Priest, they'll know the score

Dyr

As heartless as it sounds I thought it was pretty easy to get elderly parents declared certifiably bats**t in this country and possibly protect their assets from these leeches. Once she cant shell out the readies these people arent going to want to know her.

Salome

I don't understand how your sisters are sitting on their hands right now??? Does your mum have any family - brothers, sisters of her own - that might be the voice of reason?

Alternatively, I think the PP might be the next best plan - if your sisters and the PP backed you up, there's a hope she might listen.

If it's only you saying it, it is easy for her to say that "the devil has you".

Good luck OP.

Slutmonkey57b

I like how many posters are suggesting that the Catholic Church be brought in to protect an easily influenced person being brainwashed with nonsense and cynically stripped of their assets while being persuaded to see the people around them as enemies of the true faith....

Unless and until your mother is prepared to see sense there's little you can do other than to take steps to protect her assets, as the offensive poster above commented. If she believes that that the imaginary mother of a benevolant zombie is telling her what to do, then there's no reasoning you can invoke. Harsh but true I'm afraid.

Borneo Fnctn

This sounds serious. Contact the parish priest for a more benign form of brainwashing. Not joking btw.

mumhaabu

I was at this place once and it really sickening, I remarked upon it being there and this was long before the Sunday World newspaper exposed it as the fraud it is.

Get the priest involved and any friends she has, that place will extract every last cent. I would also be making a report to the gardai, there is nothing religious about it and it all based around fire and brimstone "Book of Revelation" type stuff. A family relative once had cancer and placed all faith in these cowboys with holywater novenas etc.

I think your siblings need to get involved and you need to highlight to them the gravity of the situation, (it is potentially your or all of yours inheritance on the line to be brutally honest).

Pub07

From what Ive read the church do not like Christina Gallagher one bit so Id imagine they would have no problem helping you. I see alot of people recommended going to your parish priest, I dont think that would be good enough as its highly likely your pp mighn't be up to the task of de-brainwashing your mother who's head has been consistenty filled with nonsense for years. Alot of the pp's Ive known would not have the intellect or the power of charisma/religious authority that would be required to make your mother listen to them over Gallagher who obviously must have be v charismatic. I would suggest asking a bishop to personally intervene as these guys generally are intelligent and would command much greater respect from your mother. The last thing you need is some alcholic or harmless parish priest blowing your chances for a religious intervention, get a bishop.

Wibbs

OK folks I fully understand why people are reacting as they are, but lets keep the accusations and hearsay to a minimum. Just concentrate on the options you may feel the OP has. Thanks.

hungryhippo

I would get in touch with Mike Garde in Dialogue Ireland.

www.dialogueireland.org

He is the leading expert on cults in this country and can offer the best advice.

Darragh29

Mr. Incognito wrote: »

Thanks for that link on the cult stuff



I got a text not 5 minutes ago from my mother saying "The devil has you". I mean ffs.

If I was in your situation OP, I'd be putting the point to your mother that the lifestyle led by Christina Gallagher is completely incompatible with the messages she claims to be receiving. As far as I know, she claims to be receiving messages from the Virgin Mary asking her to set up a chain of prayer houses around the world and to build support for this cause by way of people donating to the cause. If Christina Gallagher was following these instructions to any degree at all, she would be using the money that she used to buy the new 7 Series BMW she drives around in, for another house of prayer instead. The same can be said for the mansion worth millions that she owns in Portmarnock, that has absolutely nothing to do with the House of Prayer movement.

I'd be interested to know how your mother could reconcile the purchase and ownership of a multimillion Euro mansion fit for a rock star, and a car that costs well over 100K, with the messages that Christina Gallagher claims to be receiving.

Also, the chink in the armour here is that you could ask your mother who her allegiances are with, is it the Catholic Church or Christina Gallagher, because the churches strong view on this is that the house of prayer is not a recognised marian site and have disowned the house of prayer since the Sunday World researched the organisation last year and ran several stories on the obscene wealth that has been accumulated by Christina Gallagher in recent years.

http://www.independent.ie/national-news/archbishop-in-stern-rebuke-to-controversial-house-of-prayer-1298010.html

beks101

Darragh29 wrote: »

I'd be interested to know how your mother could reconcile the purchase and ownership of a multimillion Euro mansion fit for a rock star, and a car that costs well over 100K, with the messages that Christina Gallagher claims to be receiving

I don't think presenting your mother with a litany of facts about this woman's lack of credibility is the way to go. If the media, and popular belief, had as stronghold over her as Christina Gallagher's charismatic, manipulative mindplaying had, she never would have taken that bus to Achill in the first place. And chances are you'll get more of the same texts from your Mum if you start down this path.

This is a crutch for your mother, and one that seems to be working for her at the moment. I really feel for you as my own mother has become fanatically religious of late - though not in any way as serious a situation as yours - and it's been as a response to a family trauma that the whole family has struggled to cope with. This is her way of coping, and it looks like it is your own mother's way - albeit misguided and seriously detrimental to her life, health, finances - of coping.

I'd agree with contacting the Parish priest, but I also think that a professional is needed in this instance, someone who can talk to your mother, without the involvement of any religion, about what is going on with her, help her properly grieve and teach her some healthy coping strategies.

MeMyself&I

Im quite religious, i say my prayers and go to mass (the odd time).
I was at mass recently in a different parish to my own. The priest that was saying the mass is a devoted follower of this Christine Gallagher (i didnt realise until afterwards), and oh my sweet god, the sermon was unbelievable, he went on about how we were all going to hell, and why all these horrible things that happen in the world are all caused due to the way we lived our lives....like i caused them all, he constantly quoted this Gallagher one, and some of the stuff he said was scary and ridiculous.
Me and my sister got up and walked out half way through this sermon...i was disgusted that this priest was allowed preach this crap.

Anyways, that was just 15mins of attempted brainwashing....you have a very serious problem on your hands with your mother. Contact the parish priest immediately (as long as he's not the above mentioned), get him to speak a little sense to her. Read up on cult activity, and maybe see can you contact anyone that was already in your moms position, but got out in time, they could also contact her.

She isnt mental, but just brain washed. What sort of financial position is she in? Has she 'donated' much money alreadY?

Show your sisters this post, they have to cop themselves on, and realise the seriousness of all this, and help you out.

Hope it works out well

consultech

MeMyself&I wrote: »

The priest that was saying the mass is a devoted follower of this Christine Gallagher (i didnt realise until afterwards)

It may be a very good idea to "sound out" the PP as to his thoughts on Christina Gallagher before briefing him on the full set of facts regarding your mother OP. The last thing you want to happen is have the misfortune to set a fellow follower on her, only to further affirm her faith in the cult.

Darragh29

beks101 wrote: »

I don't think presenting your mother with a litany of facts about this woman's lack of credibility is the way to go. If the media, and popular belief, had as stronghold over her as Christina Gallagher's charismatic, manipulative mindplaying had, she never would have taken that bus to Achill in the first place. And chances are you'll get more of the same texts from your Mum if you start down this path.

This is a crutch for your mother, and one that seems to be working for her at the moment. I really feel for you as my own mother has become fanatically religious of late - though not in any way as serious a situation as yours - and it's been as a response to a family trauma that the whole family has struggled to cope with. This is her way of coping, and it looks like it is your own mother's way - albeit misguided and seriously detrimental to her life, health, finances - of coping.

I'd agree with contacting the Parish priest, but I also think that a professional is needed in this instance, someone who can talk to your mother, without the involvement of any religion, about what is going on with her, help her properly grieve and teach her some healthy coping strategies.

I'm just posting with regard to experience we had in our family with someone in the family who was being completely manipulated. It wasn't to do with a cult but it was a relationship issue and the methods used were very similar, complete brainwashing and indoctrination.

My approach (which ultimately worked), was to bring the person who was subject to this treatment out for few walks, and not impose my own value system on the other person but rather to try to suggest another way of looking at the facts.

In this case, I'd be asking the person to look at two conflicting/opposing statements and try to reconcile them. I'd be saying: "but you know the way she says the Virgin Mary appears to her and tells her to ask people to donate money to the house of prayer to spread the word , do you not think the Virgin Mary would be angry at her using that money for a 100K car and a private house that is worth several million Euro, that has nothing to do with the house of prayer???"

This is where the scam that Christina Gallagher is pulling off, cannot remain standing. You cannot accept that someone who claims to be receiving messages from the Virgin Mary, to raise money to build houses for people to pray in, can then use money that has been donated, to buy BMW's and mansions that would make a rock star blush. No matter how in denial you are, or how assimilated you might be into a system of beliefs, these acts and statements cannot be merged, they are contradictory. You can only explain them away for so long, eventually you will have to sit down and deal with the reality of the situation, which in this case is the fact that the whole thing is a fraud.

Darragh29

MeMyself&I wrote: »

Im quite religious, i say my prayers and go to mass (the odd time).
I was at mass recently in a different parish to my own. The priest that was saying the mass is a devoted follower of this Christine Gallagher (i didnt realise until afterwards), and oh my sweet god, the sermon was unbelievable, he went on about how we were all going to hell, and why all these horrible things that happen in the world are all caused due to the way we lived our lives....like i caused them all, he constantly quoted this Gallagher one, and some of the stuff he said was scary and ridiculous.
Me and my sister got up and walked out half way through this sermon...i was disgusted that this priest was allowed preach this crap.

I'd have stood up in the congegration and asked the priest to account for the fact that huge sums of money that have been collected from vunerable elderly people, have not been used for any purpose relating to the house of prayer or the purposes that the Virgin Mary purportedly stated that these funds were to be used for. Why don't you go back to the priest in question here and ask him in private, how he can support an organisation that is asking for money for one purpose, but is not actually spending the money for the purposes that the money was sought for in the first place???

MeMyself&I

Darragh29 wrote: »

I'd have stood up in the congegration and asked the priest to account for the fact that huge sums of money that have been collected from vunerable elderly people, have not been used for any purpose relating to the house of prayer or the purposes that the Virgin Mary purportedly stated that these funds were to be used for. Why don't you go back to the priest in question here and ask him in private, how he can support an organisation that is asking for money for one purpose, but is not actually spending the money for the purposes that the money was sought for in the first place???

Im not the sort of person that could do this (whole different PI), walking out on it was the best i could come up with. I spoke to people afterwards from that parish, i they said that the priest was too far gone at that stage, and he just took everything that this cult leader said as gospel (sorry :rolleyes:)

OP - How about posting a similar story on the religious thread, might get more insight into all this.

Also OP, how old is your mom?

prinz

Slutmonkey57b wrote: »

I like how many posters are suggesting that the Catholic Church be brought in to protect an easily influenced person being brainwashed with nonsense and cynically stripped of their assets while being persuaded ........... offensive .....the imaginary mother of a benevolant zombie is telling her what to do....

Sorry, who's being offensive? :rolleyes: Apologies for the off-topicness.

In relation to Mr Incognito - talk to her local priest. For advice on how to proceed if nothing else. People spend a fortune on counsellors etc, when there is always a member of the clergy willing to give advice, to anyone.

prinz

Darragh29 wrote: »

I'd have stood up in the congegration and asked the priest to account for the fact that huge sums of money that have been collected from vunerable elderly people, have not been used for any purpose relating to the house of prayer

Agreed. its about time people stood up to priests to explain themselves and their opinions. It was the abject fear of doing this that lead to the various crises in the Irish Church. In countries where this was encouraged there hasn't been the same pattern of abuse and cover-up. I know one instance from a european country where the father of a friend of mine walked into a school and laid out the priest teaching a class with a punch, and warned him never to use corporal punishment on the kids again. Guess what - he didnt.Not advocating violence, but as a religious person myself, I can see that only debate and openness can drive anything forward.

Darragh29

MeMyself&I wrote: »

Im not the sort of person that could do this (whole different PI), walking out on it was the best i could come up with. I spoke to people afterwards from that parish, i they said that the priest was too far gone at that stage, and he just took everything that this cult leader said as gospel (sorry :rolleyes:)

OP - How about posting a similar story on the religious thread, might get more insight into all this.

Also OP, how old is your mom?

Well, his bishop would I imagine be interested in his views but as you've said, that's for another thread.

OP, I think if you want to resolve this, you have to be in it for the long haul, you won't win the argument in a single day or week. I'd just keep putting the actual evidence down, and keep making the sane rational argument, "How can you support someone who is asking you for your hard earned money for a clearly charitable purpose X, but is clearly spending it on a non-charitable purpose Y???"

There is a lot of mention in the bible about humility and the need for self sacrifice in the earthly life to be worthy of the kingdom of heaven, (I have relatives that are into charasmatic Catholicism, who the rest of us in the family get this mantra from a few times a year on family occasions, and this has been the case since we were all young!!!), and I'd be asking how come if the bible says live a life of humility and obiedience to God, and if the bible is the word of God, then how come Christina Gallagher can decide to disobey the Mother of God by way of how she spends money given in good faith by parishoners with substantially less weath than herself, when she has been apparently told by the Virgin Mary to spend this money on the house of prayer project.

I hope you can get my point here, but to a certain degree, you have to immerse yourself in the language and codespeak that these people use, to be able to discuss the subject with them, and then try to open up the discussion with them, while gently introducing your own particular flavour of opinion (based on fact), into the matter, but at the same time, always speaking in their language of fuzzy mysticism. You have to in fact convince them that you are more Catholic then they are, by virtue of your value system, and if the truth be known, you probably actually are! Think of this for a minute... Would you con an elderly farmer out of his life savings for a 100K BMW??? Would you protect or defend someone who did so??? I doubt very much that you would...

By the way, I'm not religious at all...