Irish Road Planning and National Routes

md23040

Did the English take the p1ss when designing Ireland’s roads sometime in the Victorian era or did the town council road planners not have rulers in the 1950’s? It seems a lot of time and petrol is wasted because very few roads are point to point. Messing around on Goggle Earth the following atrocious roads shockingly came to light.

Dublin to Athlone as the Crow flies from town centre to town centre is 75.9km. On the N6 however the total journey is 88.26km or 12km+ extra trip. Athlone is 11km North of Galway but to get there you must drive to Loughrea which is 11km South of Galway then begin traversing for 23km North again to Athlone. Admittedly the new Motorway from Athlone to Dublin is as straight as an arrow. So when the M4 is fully finished it will take 1hour 30 minutes from M50 to Galway ring road (180km). Happy days.

Another clanger and even worse offender is my commute on the Ballybofey-Letterkenny-Derry on the N13. As the crow flies it is 35km from Ballybofey to Derry. But the journey from Derry to Letterkenny is 35km and the road goes everywhere but straight – it really is that shocking. Then the road from Letterkenny to Ballybofey is another 15km (on the continuation of the N13). So recently come to light my commute has 150km wasted weekly or yearly 7200km!!

Maybe Eamon Ryan should buy the road planners a few rulers and then maybe Ireland may meet its Kyoto targets. There must be loads of wasteful commutes out there.

Cool Mo D

Generally the roads go the way they do because of the local geography, like rivers and mountains, and to reach important towns en route, not because no-one could be bothered to build them straight.

ardmacha

There must be loads of wasteful commutes out there.

Why don't you just drive via Raphoe and help Ireland meet its Kyoto targets?

L1011

The M6 is correcting that southward blip to Loughrea. Most of the other deviations, especially in Donegal, are due to terrain...

GerardKeating

md23040 wrote: »

Did the English take the p1ss when designing Ireland’s roads sometime in the Victorian era or did the town council road planners not have rulers in the 1950’s? It seems a lot of time and petrol is wasted because very few roads are point to point. Messing around on Goggle Earth the following atrocious roads shockingly came to light.

Dublin to Athlone as the Crow flies from town centre to town centre is 75.9km. On the N6 however the total journey is 88.26km or 12km+ extra trip. Athlone is 11km North of Galway but to get there you must drive to Loughrea which is 11km South of Galway then begin traversing for 23km North again to Athlone. Admittedly the new Motorway from Athlone to Dublin is as straight as an arrow. So when the M4 is fully finished it will take 1hour 30 minutes from M50 to Galway ring road (180km). Happy days.

Another clanger and even worse offender is my commute on the Ballybofey-Letterkenny-Derry on the N13. As the crow flies it is 35km from Ballybofey to Derry. But the journey from Derry to Letterkenny is 35km and the road goes everywhere but straight – it really is that shocking. Then the road from Letterkenny to Ballybofey is another 15km (on the continuation of the N13). So recently come to light my commute has 150km wasted weekly or yearly 7200km!!

Maybe Eamon Ryan should buy the road planners a few rulers and then maybe Ireland may meet its Kyoto targets. There must be loads of wasteful commutes out there.

The Athlone-Galway road used to be Athlone-Athenry-Galway, but the road was diverted to serve Loughrea in the 30's, local politics to blame.

The replacement M6 restores the origional route.

But no road goes "as the crow flies". crow do not care where they cross rivers and hills etc.

md23040

ardmacha wrote: »

Why don't you just drive via Raphoe and help Ireland meet its Kyoto targets?

The road is full of pot holes and had three punctures on this stretch within two weeks and then gave up. It is a substandard road and ruins the suspension. The New Derry Motorway to Dublin is cutting through this stretch so maybe the general roads around may improve.

In general Ireland seems a lot bigger than it should be, since many of the National Roads take you on a Merry-go-round. But new motorways are point to point with faster speeds and this means Ireland's going to feel a lot smaller.

Another meaningless road on Goggle Earth is Ballyshannon to Sligo on the N15. It’s like half of a giant county roundabout - Flatten Benbulben that's the answer.

L1011

md23040 wrote: »

Another meaningless road on Goggle Earth is Ballyshannon to Sligo on the N15. It’s like half of a giant county roundabout.

Did you fail to notice theres a MOUNTAIN RANGE preventing it from being straight?

Alun

Indeed, Truskmore at 647m amongst others. I smell a troll.

marmurr1916

md23040 wrote: »

Did the English take the p1ss when designing Ireland’s roads sometime in the Victorian era or did the town council road planners not have rulers in the 1950’s? It seems a lot of time and petrol is wasted because very few roads are point to point. Messing around on Goggle Earth the following atrocious roads shockingly came to light.

Dublin to Athlone as the Crow flies from town centre to town centre is 75.9km. On the N6 however the total journey is 88.26km or 12km+ extra trip. Athlone is 11km North of Galway but to get there you must drive to Loughrea which is 11km South of Galway then begin traversing for 23km North again to Athlone. Admittedly the new Motorway from Athlone to Dublin is as straight as an arrow. So when the M4 is fully finished it will take 1hour 30 minutes from M50 to Galway ring road (180km). Happy days.

Another clanger and even worse offender is my commute on the Ballybofey-Letterkenny-Derry on the N13. As the crow flies it is 35km from Ballybofey to Derry. But the journey from Derry to Letterkenny is 35km and the road goes everywhere but straight – it really is that shocking. Then the road from Letterkenny to Ballybofey is another 15km (on the continuation of the N13). So recently come to light my commute has 150km wasted weekly or yearly 7200km!!

Maybe Eamon Ryan should buy the road planners a few rulers and then maybe Ireland may meet its Kyoto targets. There must be loads of wasteful commutes out there.

I suppose we could flatten a few towns villages and mountain ranges to make our roads that little bit more straight but those pesky local residents and environmentalists would probably object.

Or you could invent a time-machine, go back to the 1st century AD, persuade the Romans to invade and conquer Ireland, and get them to build towns with dead-straight roads between them. Then all you have to do is make sure that on towns or villages grow up on the routes of these roads until motorways are invented and finally you get the NRA to build motorways on top of the Roman roads.

Piece of cake.

BTW, the N13 originally went between Letterkenny and Bridgend (Derry) and didn't serve Ballybofey at all. The southern section of the N13 used to be part of the N56 until 1994.

And why the hell would you expect a dead straight road between Derry and Ballybofey in the first place?

Why not between Derry and Wexford? Or Derry and Waterford? Or Derry and Tullamore? Or Derry and Dingle? After all people do drive between Derry and all those places: I don't see why they should have to deviate from the 'as the crow flies' route, do you?

mysterious

But in general the OP is right. Our roads are a shambles. We have a fairly flat terrain with a few mountain ranges, not exactly daggered by any stretch.

In other European countires, rich or poor. They seem to have fantastic roads in all shapes and width dulating accross the most difficult of terrain. Take france, Swizterland, Germany, Spain for example.

Our roads are riddled with potholes. Yet in other countries, its almost unseen. Our national roads have made huge progress, but still unacceptable by todays needs and traffic.

The Nenagh to Toomevara stretch. Has potholes the size of men. That road is a disgrace. 12,000 vehicles a day use it, and it's diabolical. The council half repaired it 4 months ago:rolleyes:

Only in Irelland Only in Ireland......... I mean really.

L1011

mysterious wrote: »

Our roads are riddled with potholes.

If you think ours are bad, try Belgium. Only place I've ever feared for my low-profiles on a MOTORWAY. Actually, their safety standards (bar the intensive lighting) make our motorway network seem like it wrote the standard book for quality; there are some horrific things on their system.

Zoney

mysterious wrote: »

In other European countires, rich or poor. They seem to have fantastic roads in all shapes and width dulating accross the most difficult of terrain. Take france, Swizterland, Germany, Spain for example.

Do you want to pay more tax and/or have higher corporation tax?

G_R

mysterious wrote: »

.In other European countires, rich or poor. They seem to have fantastic roads in all shapes and width dulating accross the most difficult of terrain. Take france, Swizterland, Germany, Spain for example.

i was in Italy recently with a group of friends. The bus we were on took 2 motorways to get where we wanted to go. for the first one the driver had to pay €6.30 and the second one €7 something....with toll roads like that no wonder they have better roads, they pay an absolute fortune for them.

md23040

marmurr1916 wrote: »

And why the hell would you expect a dead straight road between Derry and Ballybofey in the first place? Why not between Derry and Wexford? Or Derry and Waterford? Or Derry and Tullamore? Or Derry and Dingle? After all people do drive between Derry and all those places: I don't see why they should have to deviate from the 'as the crow flies' route, do you?

There are no obstacles in the way of the Derry to Ballybofey corridor so why should the road have an extra 42% travel distance. The Derry to Ballybofey to BallyShannon to Sligo to Galway to Limerick forms part of the western corridor and a primary national route. It is a vital link for transport and had €millions of structural grants. Similiar to what was mentioned with political reasons in the 1930’s causing the kink to Loughrea the same probably was the case here. The main Derry-Raphoe-Ballybofey road was possibly once the main route.

marmurr1916 wrote: »

Or you could invent a time-machine, go back to the 1st century AD, persuade the Romans to invade and conquer Ireland, and get them to build towns with dead-straight roads between them. Then all you have to do is make sure that on towns or villages grow up on the routes of these roads until motorways are invented and finally you get the NRA to build motorways on top of the Roman roads.

You have hit the nail in the head. The basic road infrastructure is not problem of the Brits nor Irish planners in the 1950’s but the basic foundation of good infrastructure was laid out during Roman times. Something Ireland missed out on. Also possibly during famine times some area’s in the State probably had more relevance which fail to have as much relevance now. And road planning and town planning for many EU States was reinvented after WWII since many places were blitzed, but Ireland remained intact.

Alun wrote: »

Indeed, Truskmore at 647m amongst others. I smell a troll.

Indeed not. The reason for the thread is proably to highlight infrastructural development needs to continue, since IMO the national network is a failure compared to our European cousins. But the brilliant work of the last 10 years needs to continue and future generations will benefit. It is one area worth borrowing for since alot of the network is still in dire need of upgrade and redirection.

Zoney wrote: »

Do you want to pay more tax and/or have higher corporation tax?

The motorist pays enough tax and is a net contributor to the exchequer. The motorist is entitled to a better network and this network improvement should continue regardless of economic problems incurred short term. Why should we accept less than our European and Scandanavian cousins.

Btw does anyone know how to cut and paste goggle earth images onto boards to illustrate? It easy to cut images from GE to word doc but it won't transfer onto boards.

md23040

dannym08 wrote: »

i was in Italy recently with a group of friends. The bus we were on took 2 motorways to get where we wanted to go. for the first one the driver had to pay €6.30 and the second one €7 something....with toll roads like that no wonder they have better roads, they pay an absolute fortune for them.

IMO for a bus this is pretty much in line with toll charges here. PPP is a good option to roll out a network quickly. And is a good enough option as long as the tolls rise only with indexation and not used as a soft target for taxation. However PPP IMO is not the best solution and longterm government and consumer benefit more from the government building alone without a private partner seeking yearly profit for an infinite period.

mysterious

dannym08 wrote: »

i was in Italy recently with a group of friends. The bus we were on took 2 motorways to get where we wanted to go. for the first one the driver had to pay €6.30 and the second one €7 something....with toll roads like that no wonder they have better roads, they pay an absolute fortune for them.

But they have a superb autoroute network. It's one of the most densiest intergrated network in the world. Italy has a good national primary network too.

G_R

mysterious wrote: »

But they have a superb autoroute network. It's one of the most densiest intergrated network in the world. Italy has a good national primary network too.

thats my point. i'm saying that if we want a supurb motorway network like that we wud hav ta be paying substantially higher tolls.

Zoney

md23040 wrote: »

The motorist pays enough tax and is a net contributor to the exchequer. The motorist is entitled to a better network and this network improvement should continue regardless of economic problems incurred short term. Why should we accept less than our European and Scandanavian cousins.

You seem to think the money that motor tax provides to general expenditure is an optional contribution. It's not - it keeps the country semi-operational. If you ring-fenced motor tax for expenditure on roads, then you would simply have to pay more in general taxation to maintain our substandard ordinary services, and indeed a lot more tax would be needed to have things like schools that don't have to rely on "voluntary" contributions for half their bills (how well does that work for poorer areas?).

There is no free lunch despite the prevaling attitude in this country. And we are not just "low tax", we are *very* low tax.

As for tolls, they are a very inefficient way to collect money compared to taxation. Toll roads in Europe are in many cases a luxury to use super roads rather than the very good alternatives (whereas here you get to use basic essential motorways with barely any maintanance/services instead of goat tracks).

md23040

Zoney wrote: »

If you ring-fenced motor tax for expenditure on roads, then you would simply have to pay more in general taxation to maintain our substandard ordinary services, and indeed a lot more tax would be needed to have things like schools that don't have to rely on "voluntary" contributions for half their bills (how well does that work for poorer areas?).

So let me get the kernel of your argument straight. Roads should indefinitely subsidise the rest of the economy since other taxations are not sufficient to balance spending.

However, your argument doesn’t stack. Government collects 21.5% of taxation on fuel but with price per litre having dropped from €1.50 to 89c over the last 12 months there is now a shortfall of €160m per year. Should this be addressed to the motorist through some other means, like increased road tax etc until oil rebounds.

Also what do you do with new cars becoming more efficient with cleaner engines, hybrid technology and soon to be released hydrogen technology? Roads and cars are the engine of any economy and are treated this way in countries such as America, China Oz, with much less taxing per motorist. If you over tax the motorist this can affect consumption, which is a bad idea.

Again Irelands road network although improving is still disastrous. Where else in Europe does it take 3+ hours to travel 200-220km on primary networks?

addon/ Btw Ireland is a low tax economy with big government ideals. Big government ideals need to be reduced not taxes increased. But that's for a different thread

**add/on changed tax to reflect vat only difference on sales.

L1011

Only the VAT take goes down as fuel falls in price; the duties are set figures.

The N6 follows the Esker Riada through the midlands.

Carawaystick

mysterious wrote: »

But they have a superb autoroute network. It's one of the most densiest intergrated network in the world. Italy has a good national primary network too.

Autostrada network?

Autoroutes sont ici & Autobannen sind hier.....

At the end of the summer holiday, 50km tailbacks on the Autostrada heading back north to Milano are normal.... Thankfully the M50 isn't as long....

Alun

Carawaystick wrote: »

At the end of the summer holiday, 50km tailbacks on the Autostrada heading back north to Milano are normal.... Thankfully the M50 isn't as long....

Exactly, and try getting anywhere very fast anywhere in the Netherlands or, say, around the Ruhrgebiet in Germany on the motorway system during normal weekday commuter traffic, or when the school holidays start or finish.

I used to do a commute from near Eindhoven to Rotterdam, about 120km and 99% motorway door-to-door which would take me on average 2 hours, and sometimes 3 hours if I was unlucky on a Friday evening. They don't even bother reporting the "regular" motorway network traffic jams on the hourly traffic jam reports on Dutch radio any more it's that bad, but there are plenty more to report believe me.

A lot of people who have merely been on summer holidays in these countries and have done most of their travelling outside of the normal commute hours as well, think it's all sweetness and light on Europe's motorway networks all the time, but try actually living there for a while and you'll see that isn't true.