Alarm Monitoring with UPC Cable and Phone package

boxeyes

I have a land line with Eircom and my alarm has a dial out for monitoring, is it possible to have a dial out with the phone package from UPS ?

Thanks in advance for help

Rosser

It's not supported by UPC or accepted by Eircom (if using Phonewatch). I got the alarm upgraded to run on it's own mobile dialer and it works great

Del2005

boxeyes wrote: »

I have a land line with Eircom and my alarm has a dial out for monitoring, is it possible to have a dial out with the phone package from UPS ?

Thanks in advance for help

The dialler on you alarm won't work over a VOIP line, which is what UPC have. I had a look around before and I couldn't find an alarm dialler that would work over the internet. If you are with eircom phone watch they'll sell you a GSM dialler that will work, and I'd assume most monitoring companies would have something similar. If you are self monitoring you can buy a GSM dialler as Rosser said, but these can be very expensive for full monitoring.

bk

Rosser wrote: »

It's not supported by UPC or accepted by Eircom (if using Phonewatch). I got the alarm upgraded to run on it's own mobile dialer and it works great

How much does a GSM dialler cost?

watty

It's not VOIP that is issue. The PhoneWatch is anti-competitive. It uses SMS. Even if UPC had SMS, you can't edit the SMSSC to whatever UPC would use.

You have to switch to the eircom supplied GSM modem.

irishgrover

I have phone watch and wanted to get rid of my land line a few years back. They changed monitoring solution to cellular. In laymans terms they put in a new box which for all intensive purposes has a built in mobile phone, which is now used for monitoring.
The cost of the installation/equipment was reasonable, less than 150 I think...however I think it went up son after.
the cost of monitoring was unchanged.

DingDong

Who manufactures the alarm panel for eircom?

irishgrover

DingDong wrote: »

Who manufactures the alarm panel for eircom?

not a fecking clue to be honest, and it's all nice any tidy inside Phonewatch casing in the utility room so I don't have an easy way of finding out...

Solair

We have an eircom phonewatch alarm, it's one of the original panels and it definitely doesn't use SMS.

If you put your ear close to the panel when it dials out you can hear it tone dialing the number, followed by a low speed modem noise as it connects to the monitoring centre.

Most of those alarm systems have always used very low speed modems as they only have to transmit a couple of lines of data at most and slow modems are very robust and not really effected by line quality and they're cheap!

We have a GSM monitoring box in the attic too, and it basically seems to be a bit like a VoIP terminal adaptor i.e. it provides the alarm with a standard dial tone and phone line, then converts that to GSM.

So, as far as the alarm is concerned, it's still connected to a landline.

I would suspect the reason that phonewatch won't let you use a cable phone line or VoIP line is twofold:

1) There's no guarantee that the alarm will be able to get a signal through a VoIP line. Modems were designed to work with circuit switching and very specific sampling rates found on current-generation digital telephone switches. VoIP uses compression technologies, similar to MP3s, to make the data stream as small as possible. It sounds fine for voice, but it can miss out modem tones. It can also time compress / delay the signals. You won't hear this, but it can completely mess up modem / fax signals.

2) Cable phones or VoIP phones require a mains powered modem/router and analogue-terminal-adaptor (where you plug in your phone). There is no guarantee that these are going to be powered up all the time, and they are also not tamper proof i.e. if someone broke into your home, they could just unplug the cable modem and you'd have no dial tone.

Also, if there's a power failure, your alarm has a UPS (battery back up) built in, but your cable modem / phone doesn't. This would render your alarm system useless in a power failure, or if the intruder just switched off your mains electricity at the fuse board.

Phone lines don't suffer from power failures and the GSM monitoring device they provide is tamper resistant (if you open the box it will trigger the alarm) and it's also got battery back up so you cannot stop it dialling out, even if there's a power failure.

I don't really think there's an anti-compeditive issue. They don't even use eircom (Meteor) GSM cards. As far as I'm aware they're all vodafone, because of the superior coverage and there's no requirement to actually have a phoneline when GSM monitoring is an option.

They will refuse to install the system on an eircom HiSpeed (ISDN) line too for similar reasons btw.

C.O.Y.B.I.B

Hi ,

I'm thinking of switching to UPC Broadband and have an Astec alarm that dials a prearranged set of numbers until someone answers and presses 1 . Anyone think of a reason why this wont work with UPC Broadband ? Or would I need a certain type of Cable Router .

Any input appreciated . UPC just say it will work , but I dont believe them

Cheers

Solair

mscull wrote: »

Hi ,

I'm thinking of switching to UPC Broadband and have an Astec alarm that dials a prearranged set of numbers until someone answers and presses 1 . Anyone think of a reason why this wont work with UPC Broadband ? Or would I need a certain type of Cable Router .

Any input appreciated . UPC just say it will work , but I dont believe them

Cheers

It should work fine unless there's some kind of a data modem involved i.e. it's transmitting data. If it's just phoning people up, and waiting for them to press '1'. I don't imagine there's much of an issue. The UPC system will behave pretty much like a phone line.

The problem with modems on VoIP or Cable phone lines is that they expect the exchange to sample and process the audio in a very specific way. VoIP uses compression algorithms etc which may screw up modem data, even though they sound perfect for voice.

Del2005

mscull wrote: »

Hi ,

I'm thinking of switching to UPC Broadband and have an Astec alarm that dials a prearranged set of numbers until someone answers and presses 1 . Anyone think of a reason why this wont work with UPC Broadband ? Or would I need a certain type of Cable Router .

Any input appreciated . UPC just say it will work , but I dont believe them

Cheers

Your best bet is to find out what type of dialler your alarm has and see if it can transmit over internet lines. I wouldn't believe UPC, they are trying to sell you something.

watty

Solair wrote: »

We have an eircom phonewatch alarm, it's one of the original panels and it definitely doesn't use SMS.

If you put your ear close to the panel when it dials out you can hear it tone dialing the number, followed by a low speed modem noise as it connects to the monitoring centre.

Most of those alarm systems have always used very low speed modems as they only have to transmit a couple of lines of data at most and slow modems are very robust and not really effected by line quality and they're cheap!

I would suspect the reason that phonewatch won't let you use a cable phone line or VoIP line is twofold:

1) There's no guarantee that the alarm will be able to get a signal through a VoIP line.
2) Cable phones or VoIP phones require a mains powered modem/router and analogue-terminal-adaptor (where you plug in your phone).

They will refuse to install the system on an eircom HiSpeed (ISDN) line too for similar reasons btw.

Modems work just fine on ISDN (about 49kbps) and the adaptor can power itself from the -48V on the phone line I've tested both.

Otherwise your points about VIOP power are valid (we use a UPS).

SMS on landline unlike mobile uses in band audible signalling. The commonest form is a 1200 baud FSK. DTMF is possible, but I don't think used. So you can't tell by listening if it's real modem dialup or SMS.

eircom may have some historic arrangement with a mobile operator (Vodafone used to be eircom). SMS on landline or mobile needs an SMSC number that belongs to the operator who you connect with (Otherwise charging doesn't work on SMS).

So VOIP operators would have to support SMS with and SMSSC or SMS router with a number on their network. I'd love to hear that a VOIP operator supports this.

With a eircom line the SMSSC number (as apposed to number the SMS is sent to), is preprogramed in the alarm unit. If you use a GSM "diallier"/phone/modem the SIM has the SMSSC number preprogrammed, so sending an SMS by serial port adaptor only needs the destination SMS number, not the SMSC number.

My VOIP supports FAX, 56K modem and SkyDigibox. But it doesn't support standard phone watch due to the SMS issue.

To get between operators networks both operators must have an SMSC, or more modern an SMS router. The call terminates and is charged at that gateway on the operator and then connected via data to the destination operator. SMS is never connected "through" as a direct call like fax or analogue dial up to a server direct on a different phone network usually is.

Solair

watty wrote: »

Modems work just fine on ISDN (about 49kbps) and the adaptor can power itself from the -48V on the phone line I've tested both.

Otherwise your points about VIOP power are valid (we use a UPS).

SMS on landline unlike mobile uses in band audible signalling. The commonest form is a 1200 baud FSK. DTMF is possible, but I don't think used. So you can't tell by listening if it's real modem dialup or SMS.

eircom may have some historic arrangement with a mobile operator (Vodafone used to be eircom). SMS on landline or mobile needs an SMSC number that belongs to the operator who you connect with (Otherwise charging doesn't work on SMS).

So VOIP operators would have to support SMS with and SMSSC or SMS router with a number on their network. I'd love to hear that a VOIP operator supports this.

With a eircom line the SMSSC number (as apposed to number the SMS is sent to), is preprogramed in the alarm unit. If you use a GSM "diallier"/phone/modem the SIM has the SMSSC number preprogrammed, so sending an SMS by serial port adaptor only needs the destination SMS number, not the SMSC number.

My VOIP supports FAX, 56K modem and SkyDigibox. But it doesn't support standard phone watch due to the SMS issue.

To get between operators networks both operators must have an SMSC, or more modern an SMS router. The call terminates and is charged at that gateway on the operator and then connected via data to the destination operator. SMS is never connected "through" as a direct call like fax or analogue dial up to a server direct on a different phone network usually is.

The reason they refused to install on ISDN lines is not because the line's incapable of transmitting the audio from the modem, rather that the line can be disabled.

Are you sure that the current batch of phonewatch alarms use SMS over landlines ?
The older ones certainly used a very slow modem dialing into their monitoring centre directly. It's just a Bell 103 or V.21 modem ... similar to what's used to transmit caller ID info and quite possible SMS traffic over landlines too. Slow, robust data modem, ideal for very short data burts i.e. a line or two of text.

It just seems odd that they'd use network-based SMS as the system is produced by GE Security (ITI) and is basically just a localised and branded version of a US system.

watty

I'm not sure about anything, except that ISDN is no less reliable than POTS in a power cut. An analogue (POTS) line is disabled as easily as ISDN. Most of the exchanges are natively ISDN, I don't know why they wouldn't do phonewatch on ISDN. Bizzare.

For most people dead locks (don't forget the backdoor), closing windows (and optionally casual locks on them), locking gate for side / rear garden access and similar basic security is better value than any alarm or a monitored alarm. Wireless alarms are total waste of money, but I'll not explain on a public forum how they are defeated easily with a 40 Euro easy-to-obtain gadget.

Discouraging entry and making the front door unavailable for exit is the most important aspect. No-one finds it suspicious loads of stuff getting carried out the front door in broad daylight into a van.

The Yale "monitored" alarms come in two flavours. One (the cheaper kind) simply dials a number(s) you program in and plays back a message you have recorded at setup time. If you use this with VOIP, it works fine, but fit UPS or somesuch for your network gear/modem. The other version uses a modem and may or may not work depending on the QOS of your VOIP. Third parties such as Blueface can't do true QOS management. Only VOIP by your own ISP that uses a gateway on their network can have QOS management.

Disclaimer:
Seek professional security advice. Just because I've designed ISDN gear, debugged network VOIP and tested alarms on it and designed/installed security for Banks, don't take my word for it.

Solair

watty wrote: »

I'm not sure about anything, except that ISDN is no less reliable than POTS in a power cut. An analogue (POTS) line is disabled as easily as ISDN. Most of the exchanges are natively ISDN, I don't know why they wouldn't do phonewatch on ISDN. Bizzare.

For most people dead locks (don't forget the backdoor), closing windows (and optionally casual locks on them), locking gate for side / rear garden access and similar basic security is better value than any alarm or a monitored alarm. Wireless alarms are total waste of money, but I'll not explain on a public forum how they are defeated easily with a 40 Euro easy-to-obtain gadget.

Discouraging entry and making the front door unavailable for exit is the most important aspect. No-one finds it suspicious loads of stuff getting carried out the front door in broad daylight into a van.

The Yale "monitored" alarms come in two flavours. One (the cheaper kind) simply dials a number(s) you program in and plays back a message you have recorded at setup time. If you use this with VOIP, it works fine, but fit UPS or somesuch for your network gear/modem. The other version uses a modem and may or may not work depending on the QOS of your VOIP. Third parties such as Blueface can't do true QOS management. Only VOIP by your own ISP that uses a gateway on their network can have QOS management.

Disclaimer:
Seek professional security advice. Just because I've designed ISDN gear, debugged network VOIP and tested alarms on it and designed/installed security for Banks, don't take my word for it.

PhoneWatch basically does not like a setup where the alarm cannot cleanly seize the line i.e. they prefer a setup where the phoneline comes in - goes through the alarm system and then onwards to your phone sockets.
If the alarm dials out, it disconnects the phone sockets from the system and gets absolute priority.

Some ISDN Terminal adaptors were not really suitable as the analogue POTS ports were just RJ11 sockets, and the alarm and house extension wiring could be simply unplugged. The later eircom HiSpeed TAs had hardwire connectors. Some also required external power to provide POTS access. It has nothing to do with the ability of ISDN to carry signals. ISDN derived POTS lines will usually carry modem traffic fantastically well. It's like having the telephone exchange sitting in your living room i.e. you eliminate the miles of copper wire between you and the point in the system where your voice is converted into a digital signal.

They took a long time to come around to working with ADSL lines. The new eircom NTU can be hardwired in such a way that the alarm can still seize the line without issue.

If you clip the correct breakable links on the back of the face plate of the phone socket the socket can be wired so that the DSL feed is filtered, then passes back into the alarm, then returns back to the socket face plate and extension wiring.

These can also be used with the current eircom HiSpeed ISDN TAs in conjunction with phonewatch alarms. There's a whole load of breakable links in the socket that allow for alarm monitoring systems to seize the line.

The main thing if you are using a monitored alarm, is to ensure the line is physically secure.

DoesNotCompute

Solair wrote: »

The problem with modems on VoIP or Cable phone lines is that they expect the exchange to sample and process the audio in a very specific way. VoIP uses compression algorithms etc which may screw up modem data, even though they sound perfect for voice.

What if you had a router between the (analogue) alarm modem and the (digital) UPC cable line? I can't remember exactly what they're called (VOIP routers or IP routers, I think?), but I've seen routers that (in theory) are supposed to allow analogue fax machines "dial out" on a digital line.

hightower1

DoesNotCompute wrote: »

What if you had a router between the (analogue) alarm modem and the (digital) UPC cable line? I can't remember exactly what they're called (VOIP routers or IP routers, I think?), but I've seen routers that (in theory) are supposed to allow analogue fax machines "dial out" on a digital line.

Its..Its......ALIVE!!!!

KoolKid

An alarm system can be monitored to a central station or by direct voice message from any UPC line.
Eircom for some reason do not support it.
UPC try, for some reason to tell you it will not work. When I questioned one of their engineers on the fact that an analouge phone works & an alarm digi is basically an analouge phone he went very quiet.
The onky recommendation I would make here is to use a battery back up your modem. Otherwise in the event of a power cut your alarm is not monitored.
I would not recommend GSM. It is not very secure & can be easily jammed. Most monitoring stations will not accept connections over GSM without the customer signing a disclaimer. Eircom still seem happy to sell GSMs though..

oscarvictor

Hi looking to get a mobile phone line using sim card only to add to an existing home burglar alarm. Any ideas please?? Don't want to hook up to ready-to-go or monthly account as (hopefully) it will not be required unless in emergency by dialler?

KoolKid

If you dont want bill or ready to go what are you looking for?

oscarvictor

Sorry - a sim card for a house alarm that would be used to alert owner if the alarm went off. Only way I know of is to sign up with one of the mobile phone providers to get a sim card specifically for the purpose. If it's "ready to go", you must use a certain amount each month otherwise it becomes inactive. If you sign up for bill pay, some usage is required each month AND it's quite expensive. Just looking for another way around it.

KoolKid

The best value is Meteor, You can top up by €5. & I think you only have to top up every 6 months.

oscarvictor

Thanks Koolkid - will let you know how I get on. Do you know, by any chance, what Code 75 means - Aritech alarm please?

KoolKid

oscarvictor wrote: »

Thanks Koolkid - will let you know how I get on. Do you know, by any chance, what Code 75 means - Aritech alarm please?

Do you mean Astec??
Displayed when digi has made maximum allowed call attempts without success. Cleared when a successful
call (including test call) is made.

oscarvictor

Definitely Aritech - Code 75 seems to have cleared - thanks so much - now showing Code 31 - so sorry???? Trying to re-install alarm in a friend's house!!!

KoolKid

Is it saying Call Alarm Co 31?

oscarvictor

YES!!!!!

oscarvictor

KoolKid - don't wish to keep pestering you - is there anywhere I can get a printout of the codes as as one clears, another one seems to pop-up. Thanks for all your help - brill!!!

KoolKid

They are all just referring to a tamper, ignore them till you are finished. Close up the panel & then post up what number displays.

oscarvictor

it says "Panel Tamper"

KoolKid

Either the panel lid is not on correctly or a tamper loop wired in Aux Tamper terminals 18 & 19 is open.

oscarvictor

You are a GENIOUS - thanks a million for that. Have a feeling I might have to come back to you again but that makes sense!!!!! Thank YOU.