Made to feel wrong cause I DO obey the law!

Tigletts

Sorry but I need to rant here. I'm sick of family, friends even my driving instructors telling me I need to 'drive away myself' to get more practice. I will not drive on my own. It's against the law, I'm not qualified, I've not passed my test so I will not do it. I live about an hours drive from my test centre so don't get in there as much as I'd like but I'm doing my best. This country will never change if laws are seen to be there to be ignored. It's the instructors that get me the most, they really should not be inciting young people to do this :mad:

Permabear

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MollyZ

Hi Tigletts, I can really symapthise with you on this one - I get the same thing from some of my family and friends too. I did have a driving instructor at one stage who told me the same thing. He also told me that I didn't really need to stop at certain stop signs, unless I was doing a driving test!!:eek: I changed instructor.

I only have a few friends and family members living close to me who have had a full licence for more than 2 years that could accompany me driving, and two of them keep on at me to take down the L plates and go out on my own when it's quiet. As a result, I rarely ask them to accompany me anymore. I find it really frustrating. I'm a really nervous driver at the best of times and it's taking me a very long time to master it. This kind of attitude from people who I had hoped would be supportive in my efforts to become a safe and confident driver really doesn't help.

aoibhebree

Tigletts you are absolutely doing the right thing by not going out on your own, it is way too easy to get into bad habits before the test! I never once went out on my own before the test, and that was even before the laws got stricter, but I just kept nagging my parents and boyfriend to come out with me It was worth it in the end because I passed first time!

When you get confident enough to feel like you could drive on your own, especially coming up to your test, ask your accompanying driver to just sit in the back and not say anything, and tell you after where you went wrong. I found that good practice for the test.

Good luck, and fair play to you for doing the right thing

Basq

Tigletts,

I wholeheartily agree with you in theory. I am in the exact same situation as you - I don't have a car of my own and am a named driver on my mother's car.

My parents are both very busy and I refused to drive on my own, so I rarely got a chance to go out driving. And because of this, my driving got very rusty and it got to a point of sheer frustration that I wasn't getting any better due to a pure lack of practice.

So against my own better judgment and out of pure frustration (am on my second provisional license), I started going out in the car on my own at the start of the year and although I'm not happy in doing this, my driving and confidence has come along leaps and bounds.

I do respect the need for the law in place.. but unfortunately, I can't wholeheartedly agree with it as not everyone has the opportunity to have a fully qualified driver with them regularly.

Just my 2 cents!

John Mason

i was driving for 3 years on a provisional, when the new laws came in, i stop driving and in actual fact gave my car away, until i passed my test.

everyone was laughing at but fec.k em!

its the same thing with the drink driving thing. if i know i have to drive early the next day, i wont drive or will have two drinks. everyone things i am mad but..........

Tigletts

Thanks all.
Mollyz, I hear you. I'm very nervous too. In fact I can easily say this is the hardest thing I've ever had to do. My third test is coming up in a few weeks but I know I won't pass. Too cautious and too hesitant

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TouchingVirus

donegalfella wrote: »

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I happily drove without a licensed driver to learn but I had about 10 lessons beforehand on public roads and countless trips on private land. This was all before the 1000 euro fine but it was still illegal. I had a not-at-fault accident while driving the car on my own on a provisional and the Gardai said they recnogised what I was doing was wrong but that I really had no other choice (Taxi to work cost more than I make in a day, no friends or parents to accompany me to work).

Now though, I wouldn't think about it. I'd just pester my folks or friends to come with me for a spin, and shut the hell up so I could pretend I'm driving on my own. No chat, radio on and pure concentration. For lessons I'd just stick to the instructors

Don't back down OP, the risks vastly outweigh the benefits and while you might be inconvenienced by having to wait longer to pass your test I'd wager that a €1000 fine would inconvenience you a bit more

Basq

donegalfella wrote: »

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No, that's not what I'm saying at all.

I'm saying I made a personal choice.. and I'm not happy about it at all but if I didn't make it, I'd be left in two positions:

i) I'd be left paying €40 - €45 every time I needed to go out with a accompanied driver (as a driving instructor is the only chance I'd have to go out regularly) and that was the way I was going for a number of months. The number of times I've been out with driving instructors is currently in double-figures.
ii) I'd be currently paying to be a named driver with a car I don't get to use.

donegalfella wrote: »

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I know all this already.. this is the exact reason I stayed off the road for a number of months when the law came into effect. And was extremely EXTREMELY apprehensive to go on the road alone.

But once my driving (or lack thereof) started to suffer.. I made a personal decision.

You don't need to convince me or anything and agree with you completely.. my decision was not easily made but it was made because of my years (yes, years!) of practice suffered, I was sick of being pressured by others to get out there and learn.

I'm not saying my decision was right.. I have applied for my test and am waiting for it but I personally think there needs to be some room for people in a similar position. And there must be people in a similar position.

I don't expect people to agree with what I'm doing.. and fully expect people to frown on it. But I'm being completely honest about it - it was a decision I made out of frustration, and I'm not particularly happy with it.

jhegarty

To be fair it takes a while after new laws come in for peoples attitude to change. Think about the smoking ban , it took quite a while before it was completely accept, the rebel pubs and all that. No one would think of breaking it now.

It took decades before drink driving became really unacceptable. Seat belts the same.

However,I think in 2/3 years time someone who suggests driving unaccompanied will get the same attitude of someone who thinks it's ok to go out with a "few" pints.

MollyZ

Tigletts wrote: »

Thanks all.
Mollyz, I hear you. I'm very nervous too. In fact I can easily say this is the hardest thing I've ever had to do. My third test is coming up in a few weeks but I know I won't pass. Too cautious and too hesitant

Tigletts, totally agree - it's the hardest thing I've ever had to do too! Glad to hear I'm not the only one. I haven't got to the point where I could apply for a test yet, but hopefully one day.

Best of luck with your test. I can understand your apprehension, driving can be hard enough in normal circumstances, so I can't even begin to imagine how much more nerve wracking it must be to do a test. Good luck with it, I really hope you surprise yourself and pass.

Permabear

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dohc

Its very unlikely it will happen that you get fined and its hardly the crime of the century grow a pair!!

Permabear

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jhegarty

dohc wrote: »

Its very unlikely it will happen that you get fined and its hardly the crime of the century grow a pair!!

As the op said. Will you be paying his €1000 and barrister bill if he "grows a pair" and gets caught ?

I only just got my car and found out about the rule that someone accompanying you doesn't just have to have a full licence but has to have it for 2 years, are they strict on that too? My friend has hers 7 months and was going to come out with me...

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Calhoun

basquille wrote: »

No, that's not what I'm saying at all.

I'm saying I made a personal choice.. and I'm not happy about it at all but if I didn't make it, I'd be left in two positions:

i) I'd be left paying €40 - €45 every time I needed to go out with a accompanied driver (as a driving instructor is the only chance I'd have to go out regularly) and that was the way I was going for a number of months. The number of times I've been out with driving instructors is currently in double-figures.
ii) I'd be currently paying to be a named driver with a car I don't get to use.
.

The only thing i will say to you is that lessons with a good instructor will be the real difference between a pass and fail.

I cant condem you as i drove on a provisional for 2 years before the 1K fine and 6 months afterwards. I dont apoligise for it as it was the done thing at the time but because i could drive enough on the roads it actually worked against me.

I thought i was a good driver until i met my instructor, he showed me that being able to move a vehicle wasnt enough you have to be able to do it safely. Overall all i spent about 400 euro on lesson with him and it was well worth it, when i finally did my test i was confident that i would pass no problem and i did .

Just goes the show the difference a good instructor can make, this guy was ADI approved so he knew his stuff very well and was able to teach me to a higher standard.

helpwanted1

Its personal choice if you want to run the risk of going out driving alone but being a learner driver up till yesterday (finally passed) I cant possibly see how you can gain enough confidence, experience and ability without driving regularly and unless you can afford to pay anything up to 1000euro then being unaccompanied is the only answer, especially in the current eceonomic climate.Its not ideal but its realistic unfortunately.

the whole system is flawed in my opinion.

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sunnyside

donegalfella wrote: »

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But without a dual control car how can the companion help you? The person in the passenger seat has no control over the car.

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helpwanted1

donegalfella wrote: »

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Therefore its a choice that is made by the individual. Yes?

donegalfella wrote: »

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They can do options (a) nor (b). but in my opinion these ARE 'insurmountable' for two reasons, the cost of (a) and (b) not practical

donegalfella wrote: »

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The fine you quote is the maximum fine and from personal experience,(5 different occasions) I was not issued any fine. Again however I am not promoting this as best practice-just necessary.

donegalfella wrote: »

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At no stage did I propose any type of behaviour, i merely made a personal observation. No point in quoting statistics from Swedan. This is Ireland. I would blame any statistics like that on the lesson rates charged by instructors. If lessons were 15euro per hour i am sure all learners would choose this option-unfortunately this is not the case.

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jhegarty

donegalfella wrote: »

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Have got a link for that ?

Permabear

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Basq

donegalfella wrote: »

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All I can find is this:

The problem with accidents during practice may thus be regarded as relatively small in a country the size of Sweden with a population of 9 million. It is also small in comparison with the situation among novice drivers with a licence. Expressed as a health risk (accidents per 1000 drivers), it is 33 times higher among novice drivers than among learner drivers.

the_syco

Expressed as a health risk (accidents per 1000 drivers), it is 33 times higher among novice drivers than among learner drivers.

What's the difference between the learner driver, and the novice driver?

Going with a instructor, they point out the rights, and wrongs. Family and friends teach you their bad habits, I've found.

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jhegarty

basquille wrote: »

All I can find is this:

Very interesting.

Those figures look like that would make the learners the safest people on the road ?

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Flesh Gorden

I'm not being a smartass - and I'm not looking for a silly argument - But Donegalfella,



If the current learner driver laws where in force when you where learning would they have worked against you?

Would you have been forced to take the risk of driving alone at any time?




the law is flawed for anyone who wants to have a job , and there are a lot of people who have no other choice but to take the risk

including 3 friends who drive to and from templemore at the weekends on L plates




I have no one in my family to accompany me and need to drive to work.

and as far as I know I don't think I can find someone to wait 9 hours 5 days a week in an industrial estate so they can accompany me each way




the few times I've had to get taxis it has cost me close to €50 a day
and a long wait even when booked in advance
(€11,750 a year - 5 days 47 weeks @ €50)

Buses add a minimum 3 hours to my commute - work out at close to €2k a year and add way too much stress and personal danger




I've my test date in 4 weeks ( 14 week wait in total - despite letter/phone calls for cancelled dates)

I accept the risk I take- My only other choice is being on the dole for the rest of my life

Alanstrainor

I'm going to have a bash at these questions, despite being addressed to DonegalFella

Flesh Gorden wrote: »

If the current learner driver laws where in force when you where learning would they have worked against you?

Would you have been forced to take the risk of driving alone at any time?

I was never in a position where a car was essential for me to function, i didn't have a car before i got my provisional, and i still was able to get around. So there was nothing to force me onto the roads unaccompanied.

Flesh Gorden wrote: »

the law is flawed for anyone who wants to have a job , and there are a lot of people who have no other choice but to take the risk

Correct me if i'm wrong, but are you saying that a learner permit should entitle you to drive unaccomp from day one? Can you imagine what things would be like if a Learner Permit actually allowed people to drive without any experience, or any testing? I would love to know a way around this. Other countries get on fine with even stricter learning to drive laws. Where no one would even consider driving a car without a full license. Here's an interesting glimpse of how things work in Switzerland.

Learning to drive in Switzerland

You must be 18 years of age to learn how to drive in Switzerland. The process begins with a 10-hour first aid course in which you learn how to give assistance to traffic accident victims. Then, you must follow eight hours of obligatory theory (traffic-awareness course).

Once you begin to drive, you must be accompanied by a person over 24 years of age who has had his or her license for at least three years.

Flesh Gorden wrote: »

I have no one in my family to accompany me and need to drive to work.

How did you get to work before you got your Learner Permit? How did it come to a situation where by a car was the only way of getting to/from work?

Flesh Gorden wrote: »

the few times I've had to get taxis it has cost me close to €50 a day
and a long wait even when booked in advance
(€11,750 a year - 5 days 47 weeks @ €50)

Buses add a minimum 3 hours to my commute - work out at close to €2k a year and add way too much stress and personal danger

And maintaining, taxing, insuring, fueling a car isn't expensive? Not to forget the initial outlay for the car in the first place. Driving is expensive too.

Permabear

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Tony Broke

Flesh Gorden wrote: »

I'm not being a smartass - and I'm not looking for a silly argument - But Donegalfella,



If the current learner driver laws where in force when you where learning would they have worked against you?

Would you have been forced to take the risk of driving alone at any time?




the law is flawed for anyone who wants to have a job , and there are a lot of people who have no other choice but to take the risk

including 3 friends who drive to and from templemore at the weekends on L plates




I have no one in my family to accompany me and need to drive to work.

and as far as I know I don't think I can find someone to wait 9 hours 5 days a week in an industrial estate so they can accompany me each way




the few times I've had to get taxis it has cost me close to €50 a day
and a long wait even when booked in advance
(€11,750 a year - 5 days 47 weeks @ €50)

Buses add a minimum 3 hours to my commute - work out at close to €2k a year and add way too much stress and personal danger




I've my test date in 4 weeks ( 14 week wait in total - despite letter/phone calls for cancelled dates)

I accept the risk I take- My only other choice is being on the dole for the rest of my life

I feel for you, but you should be thankful you can drive a car without having to pass any driving based test really.

The whole provisional/learner thing should be scrapped.No one should be allowed on the road until they have completed hours and hours of excruciatingly boring lessons with instuctors and then several tests over a few months in different conditions like they do in Finland for example.

I believe this will be introduced in the future, so you have nothing to complain about

ztoical

Flesh Gorden wrote: »

including 3 friends who drive to and from templemore at the weekends on L plates



Buses add a minimum 3 hours to my commute - work out at close to €2k a year and add way too much stress and personal danger

Templemore to where? I'm going to assume its Thurles or Littleton or the like and all I can say is there are plenty of people driving over and back to get lifts off as my aunt has lived in the arse end of Templemore her whole married life, doesn't drive and has no issues getting in to Thurles every morning for work for the last 15+ years by getting the train, buses or lifts from random people heading that way, the joy of the countryside is people are willing to go out of their way for each other.

I'm sick of people coming on and claiming they are such a dire situation that they have to break the law. Yes the buses are a pain down the country as they all go the back roads and a 30 mins trip ends up taking an hour and half but they are there and the law is the law so shut up and deal. I took the bus from Thurles to Kilkenny and back every day for 5 months when I was learning to drive rather then drive on my own. Gave up my lunch break to take lessons and had to deal with being pretty broke for a couple of months but it is possible to learn to drive without breaking the law, most people just don't want to put themselves out.

S.I.R

donegalfella wrote: »

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because the courts are busy if you can keep them busy for 3/4 it'll be thrown out of court with just a slap on the wrist...


after the recent spite of crime they have bigger fish to catch, but not to under mind the law....


its their for a reason and i can understand they're meaning...


right before i got my license my dad brought me to a mates warehouse and i done laps of it by myself in me grannys starlet... not exactly an ideal set up but it was safe and i learned to do everything i would do on a full test/real life...


just need to work on handbrake parking though.

ardmacha

Buses add a minimum 3 hours to my commute - work out at close to €2k a year and add way too much stress and personal danger

Buses are not more expensive than the full running costs of a car. You seem happy to impose the stress and danger on the rest of us that have to use the road. Having a qualified bus driver drive is clearly less dangerous for you than driving yourself.

People all over Europe go to jobs without driving until they are qualified to drive. Not only in places with fabulous public transport, but in Wales, Scotland etc. Is public transport better in Fermanagh than Tipperary? I very much doubt it. Yet people in Fermanagh have never driven unaccompanied and funny enough society has not broken up.

Flesh Gorden

Alanstrainor wrote: »

I was never in a position where a car was essential for me to function, i didn't have a car before i got my provisional, and i still was able to get around. So there was nothing to force me onto the roads unaccompanied.

How did you get to work before you got your Learner Permit? How did it come to a situation where by a car was the only way of getting to/from work?

i used to get buses - couldn't stand it



morning journey would take at the least an hour normally up to an hour and a half

to get home:

if i finished at 5 - i might be lucky to get in home before 7

if i finish at 9 - bus 1 - would leave at 9:30 i had to run to get the 10:05 (bus 2) and I'd get home by half past - if i missed that I wouldn't get home till 11


and that's weekdays - I couldn't do night shifts and few weekends

Now by car 20 mins each way


it meant aswell i could only work part time - so i was broke and stressed out from being at home 4 days a week - always late

I had a long walk to, between and from the two buses that put me in firing line of any scumbags and drunken fools on and off the bus
and to be honest I never left the house without something to defend myself

ardmacha wrote: »

Yet people in Fermanagh have never driven unaccompanied and funny enough society has not broken up.

Wow! sounds better then heaven

I wonder do you still get a dozen roses when you arrive



.

ardmacha

in firing line of any scumbags

Yes, some areas are full of law breaking scumbags.

sunnyside

donegalfella wrote: »

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Not everyone works 9-5 in the town or city centre. People doing shiftwork on industrial estates might have to walk alone to a bus stop half a mile down the road in the dark. Some shifts finish at midnight or later, buses don't run at those times.

Tony Broke wrote: »

The whole provisional/learner thing should be scrapped.No one should be allowed on the road until they have completed hours and hours of excruciatingly boring lessons with instuctors and then several tests over a few months in different conditions like they do in Finland for example.

I believe this will be introduced in the future, so you have nothing to complain about

I agree, I don't think the law will be fully obeyed until something like that is introduced here.

The €1000 fine is the cost of 20 lessons, it's actually not that prohibitive compared with the cost of paying someone to accompany a learner to work.

I don't understand why it isn't fully enforced, the government could really do with the money.

ztoical

sunnyside wrote: »

Not everyone works 9-5 in the town or city centre. People doing shiftwork on industrial estates might have to walk alone to a bus stop half a mile down the road in the dark. Some shifts finish at midnight or later, buses don't run at those times.

I know plenty of people working shiftwork in towns that have no bus service at all and still manage to get around without breaking the law.