Tupac Shakur: Over-rated or Genius

godspal

2pac has been herald as the greatest rapper of all time, however there is a rising belief that he is over-rated and that his presence in rap over-shadows the true greats (Nas, Biggie etc.)

Heres the arguments in quick points:
Genius:
-5 studio albums that have all sold millions world-wide.
-2 Number one albums in one year. (All Eyes on Me and Don Illumanti: The 7 Day Theory.)
-Angry Lyrics and flow that represent an African-American community who were and are still ignored in the ghetto.
-A spitting flow that puts emphasis on all the right words.

Over-rated:
-Self-indulgent (A Two Disc Albums that just praises the name 2pac through-out.)
-Over-aggressive (The instigator of the East-West Coast feud.)
-Lyrically simplistic (never really invested time and effort into his lyrics compared to people like Nas.)
-A product of the media (2pac's image was never built by himself but by the controversies the media pursued.)

yeah-buddy

Fail

DarkJager

2pac was a genius, still remains my favorite rapper of all time. As for his lyrics not having depth, you obviously haven't heard "Brendas Got a baby" "Keep Ya Head Up" "So Many Tears" "Can You Get Away?".... I could go on, but that list is enough to discredit the theory he didn't have depth.

A product of the media? Hell no. Pac had 2 sides to him; on one hand he had his gangsta persona, but on the other was a more compassionate human side, understanding of the struggles people go through in everyday life. People were able to connect with his music and his lyrics (who hasn't identified with the words of "Me Against the world" at some point?).

As for the true greats as you call them, Biggie would certainly not be in my definition of true greats and Nas killed it on Illmatic but has struggled to come anywhere close to that since. I never got Biggie, he just didn't hold the same charm or appeal that pac did, and to be honest his beats weren't all that memorable to me. It still baffles me as to how people would rate him over pac.

Me Against the world wrote:

With all this extra stressin
The question I wonder is after death, after my last breath
When will I finaly get to rest? Through this supression
they punish the people that's askin questions
And those that possess, steal from the ones without possesions
The message I stress: to make it stop study your lessons
Don't settle for less - even the genius asks-es questions
Be grateful for blessings
Don't ever change, keep your essence
The power is in the people and politics we address
Always do your best, don't let the pressure make you panic
And when you get stranded
And things don't go the way you planned it
Dreamin of riches, in a position of makin a difference
Politicians and hypocrites, they don't wanna listen
If I'm insane, it's the fame made a brother change
It wasn't nuttin like the game
It's just me against the world

godspal

Sick of being accused of hating Tupac. I love Tupac. Me Against the World is one of my favourite rap albums. However I feel somewhat proud of my journalistic skills that I have managed to hide any bias in the arguments that I presented.
And anyone who says that this topic should never have been open, there is nothing wrong with accessing a great. If he is a great he should stand against a little criticism.

if hes a genius, mary harney is page 3 material

1986

There'll never be anyone as good as 2pac in hip hop... and THATS FINAL! the man spoke from his heart!

spacecoyote

Didn't vote in the poll, as I think its a bit to Black and white, whereas 2Pac sits somewhere in the grey. He had some fantastic tracks, and some good albums, but also plenty of rubbish. I don't think having 2 number one albums in a year, or selling a lot is criteria for genius, as otherwise theres a lot of "genius" knocking around the place. Overall I'd call him a very influential artist, a very successful artist, an at times great artist, but by no means a genius

smythire

over played and under rated

unknown13

Genius, one of a very few rappers who rap about any situation

Pen1987

1986 wrote: »

There'll never be anyone as good as 2pac in hip hop... and THATS FINAL! the man spoke from his heart!

What kind of argument is that - "he spoke from his heart", have you never heard another rapper speak from his heart? It's not all about the guns and the bitches. Dig a little deeper.

smythire

its odd ya know, his songs which came from his heart were release after his death..and they seems to be sampled.

there a a million rappers who tell tales of real life, with real morals and with real beats. they're even funny.:pac:

Liam O

Pen1987 wrote: »

What kind of argument is that - "he spoke from his heart", have you never heard another rapper speak from his heart? It's not all about the guns and the bitches. Dig a little deeper.

For him though it was. He rapped about things that he experienced in his life. In some songs (I get around) he would objectify the hussies who threw themselves at him and in other songs (Keep Ya Head Up) he would build up the strong women that he had in his life. He rapped about the things that afflicted his people and while I wouldn't go as far as to call him a genius he made some amazing songs. I mean all you have to do is listen to songs like Brenda's Got A Baby and U Wonder Why They Call U Bitch (what a song!) to see that he didn't limit himself to guns and women :rolleyes: open your mind

Pen1987

Liam O wrote: »

For him though it was. He rapped about things that he experienced in his life. In some songs (I get around) he would objectify the hussies who threw themselves at him and in other songs (Keep Ya Head Up) he would build up the strong women that he had in his life. He rapped about the things that afflicted his people and while I wouldn't go as far as to call him a genius he made some amazing songs. I mean all you have to do is listen to songs like Brenda's Got A Baby and U Wonder Why They Call U Bitch (what a song!) to see that he didn't limit himself to guns and women :rolleyes: open your mind

My point was saying something like "he spoke from the heart", which you then back up with "for him though it was", is not a valid argument. There are a thousand rappers out there who speak from the heart, they just don't have backing that was as good as Tupac Shakurs.

There are loads of rappers who write about women who throw themselves at them in songs in a critical manner. There are loads that talk about strong women in a good light, and loads that don't do what Tupac did, talk stupid about guns, drugs and money. The way Tupac did it wasn't even that impressive, it wasn't even that different to the others who were out at the time.

Open my mind? I'm a Tupac fan to an extent, he has some good songs (like Brendas Got a Baby) but he's little more than an average rapper who caught the zietgeist, had the right people behind him and therefore sold a ton of CDs.

godspal

To Pen1987:

Tupac is a technically proficient rapper. In California Love Tupac puts emphasis on all the right parts without essentially making the sound seemed forced. The flow over the beat is just wonderful allowing for this exciting burst from what is essentially a great dance song.

There are loads of rappers who write about women who throw themselves at them in songs in a critical manner. There are loads that talk about strong women in a good light, and loads that don't do what Tupac did, talk stupid about guns, drugs and money. The way Tupac did it wasn't even that impressive, it wasn't even that different to the others who were out at the time.

While I would deem Tupac's first two albums 2pacaplyse and Strictly 4 My N.I.G.G.E.R.S within these cliched boundaries (as they thematically, conceptually and lyrically flawed on so many levels) it wasn't until Me Against the World came out that any sort of genius began to emanate from his work.
Me Against the World began to show the cracks in Tupac's personality; the paranoid delusions, his aggressive nature, and his very big ego. Unlike other rappers out there Tupac's actual nature reveals itself several times through-out this album. In songs such as So Many Tears and Temptations we see the self-imposed title of Thug showing its real side and its problems on Tupac's life. While something like **** the World portrays his unstable relationship with reality.

All Eyez on Me is a very divided affair. On disc 1 Tupac plays around with his commercial success, however he is more then willing to embrace the more pop-y side of rap. The problem I have with disc 1 is whether Tupac is trying to mirror commercialism or parody it.
Disc 2 is a return to Me Against the World. Once again Tupac reveals himself on record, however I feel that it does not grow enough from Tupac's previous album. This album however cannot be dismissed, it is truly Tupac's definitive work but personally I prefer the album that preceded it and succeeded it.

The Don Killuminati: The 7 Day Theory is the angriest album in hip-hop. We see Tupac rise to Kurt Cobain's problem, success at the cost of artistic integrity. Tupac does not just distance himself from the west-coast movement (with no discernible West Coast producers and only a couple of producers from previous albums) he also began to try and install himself as a powerhouse of Hip-Hop. Also the other side of album is that Tupac begins to entrench himself against all Hip-Hop; Tupac lashes out against East Coast rap and alienates himself from any movement at the time. A very unique album which is truly huge feat in the a music genre that should very limited.

Edit: I am not even going to try and justify the blatant selling of his name in his posthumous works. I don't agree with any artists name being used to sell stuff they probably wouldn't have release in the first place.

smythire

lads, i don't want to piss on your fire.

spacecoyote

godspal wrote:

The problem I have with disc 1 is whether Tupac is trying to mirror commercialism or parody it.

I think you're giving him wayyyy to much credit there even contemplating that

godspal

spacecoyote wrote: »

I think you're giving him wayyyy to much credit there even contemplating that

I thought that for awhile too... But some of the songs are so ott, and don't forget that Tupac was very well-read, highly intelligent man so I don't find to difficult to think this may be a possibility.

Pen1987

He also knew what sold.

Parrish_Crooks

Not voting on this thread, it's way too black and white. I have written at length about my favourite rapper on this forum anyway previously. He was brilliant at times; Deep, philosophical, and powerful. Other times he gave the people what they wanted to hear. There is no doubting his charisma, I think that added a lot to his stature as a rapper. What I love about him is that you can throw on All Eyez on me and listen to relatively simple party music and switch off, or throw on Me Against The World or Strictly 4 My N.I.G.G.A.Z. (My favourite by a mile) if you want to think and be stimulated.

Besides his rapper persona, he was also a highly complex, and (In my opinion) deeply interesting, conflicted individual. From what I gather from the extensive amount of literature on him, interviews with him, and his own writings anyway. For this reason I will never get tired of listening to him. He is fascinating.

By the way, anyone who says 2pac wasn't deep should first of all stop listening to California Love typr party jams. Also stay away from thet posthumous stuff aswell. That's NOT 2pac. Listen to Keep Ya head up, So Many tears, Temptations, and Holla If ya hear me. Then read some of his poetry book which he wrote when he was just 17. Finally listen to some interviews with the great man, and come back and say he's shallow.

By the way, I'd like to see how many self professed Pac fans on here get the reference in my username....

BLITZ_Molloy

Where's the 'absolutely ****' option?

ItsNugget

Dark jager how can say Biggie didnt have great beats? 2 pac had some of the worst beats ive heard in hiphop history on that all eyez on me album.

Biggies first album had qulaity production from the likes of premo and lord finesse.

Anyways as far 2pac being over rated. He had great songs and a few class albums. But as a lyricist he really fell short. Mad implistic lyrics and real cliched ****e at times. Theres 2 pac songs ive heard for the firstn time and could rap every second line they were thatt predictable.

Liam O

'In the locker room all the niggas do is laugh,
high five 'cause another nigga played yo ass.'

One of my favourite lyrics ever. Hilarious. Wonder Why They Call U Bitch is a great song. Who cares if his lyrics are simplistic? It's music not poetry. If it's poetry you're after he did that too, read that before you say he lacks creativity

ItsNugget

I never said he lacked creativty. I said he fell short lyrically.

floggg

Liam O wrote: »

'In the locker room all the niggas do is laugh,
high five 'cause another nigga played yo ass.'

One of my favourite lyrics ever. Hilarious. Wonder Why They Call U Bitch is a great song. Who cares if his lyrics are simplistic? It's music not poetry. If it's poetry you're after he did that too, read that before you say he lacks creativity

Well its a hip-hop forum, so if would hope that everybody would care about simplisitic lyrics. To truly be a genius in the hip-hop game, you need many attributes, one of the most important is lyricism.

If the ability to craft a catchy hook and have a good flow and delivery was all that was needed, we'd be championing Flo-Rida or whoever as the G.O.A.T. We don't!

Parrish_Crooks

ItsNugget wrote: »

I never said he lacked creativty. I said he fell short lyrically.

Ya, you're right 'nugget', Cos I've heard some of your own tracks that you've posted up here and they're <b>WAY</b> better than anything 2pac ever did........:rolleyes:

Makaveli

So playing devil's advocate here you're debasing ItsNugget's opinion based purely on the fact that he's an emcee and is not as good a lyricist as 2pac?

horsebox09

i think he was overrated. compare him to people like kool g rap rakim nd big daddy kane,does not have a patch on them. just because he sold the most records does not mean he was the best-he would probably make my top 20 definetly not my top 10 though.

HeartOfTheCity

I'm just putting this one out there (and this applies to Biggie too), but would 2Pac have been viewed as 'the greatest that did it' if he hadn't been killed?

BertrandMeyer

the way tupac did it wasn't until me against the world. once again tupac reveals himself on record, however i feel somewhat proud of my favourite rap albums. as for his lyrics not having depth, it still baffles me as to call him a very influential artist, a very successful artist, an at times great artist, but by no means a genius he made some amazing songs. i don't think having 2 number one albums in a year, or selling a lot of genius began to emanate from his work. i think its a bit too black and white, whereas 2pac sits somewhere in the arguments that i presented.

Jimmy Carter

2 3 good songs tops, pretty mediocre

Liam O

How many of his songs have you even listened to? You know he made more songs than just Changes and California Love :rolleyes:

3hn2givr7mx1sc

I think this is a no-brainer, how could any1 question the genius of Tupac Shakur. Changes is my favorit rap song of all-time, it has everything, flow, good beat and deals with an important issue. The man is an absolute genius.. and tell me 1 rapper who doesn't have confidence in their ability

BertrandMeyer

your getting trolled