Borg @ Wolf 359

Cookie_Monster

IIRC Voyager comes accross a few borg at various point that claim to be humans from the battle of Wolf 359.

How is this explained as surely any Starfleet personnell (or Klingons?) assimilated by this cube would have been destroyed by the Enterprise in the Sol system

seamus

There's nothing to suggest that the borg didn't begin assimilating the ships at Wolf 359 and then headed off to let the drones do their work. Drones can operate in no-oxygen/low oxygen environments, so destroyed ships may or may not have drones in them which then used the materials to construct Borg ships and return to Borg space.

Of course, you have to allow a certain amount that Borg "dynamics" were in their infancy at that stage of writing, so you have to use what you know of the Borg to come up with some convincing story in retrospect.

Cookie_Monster

seamus wrote: »

There's nothing to suggest that the borg didn't begin assimilating the ships at Wolf 359 and then headed off to let the drones do their work. Drones can operate in no-oxygen/low oxygen environments, so destroyed ships may or may not have drones in them which then used the materials to construct Borg ships and return to Borg space.

Hmmm tenious at best.

There is no evidence when the Enterprise arrives there that there is any assimilation still going on, nor are they concerned about any threats while there. Further more why would any drones left behind not attempt to continue on to Sol in support of the cube?

seamus

At the time perhaps, knowing that the cube was gone, they hadn't the numbers or the firepower to launch a second assault and instead retreated to the delta quadrant.

Another question: If they were using transwarp conduits, why did it take a further 7 (?) years to return to earth? Indeed, why did they only send one more, when we know they had thousands of cubes at their disposal?

Cookie_Monster

seamus wrote: »

At the time perhaps, knowing that the cube was gone, they hadn't the numbers or the firepower to launch a second assault and instead retreated to the delta quadrant.

Long auld trip that as the original cube used warp rather than traswarp to get to Sol, as shown by the fact it had to stop to fight at wolf 359 and the Enterprise caught up with it again.

seamus wrote: »

Another question: If they were using transwarp conduits, why did it take a further 7 (?) years to return to earth?

Could be that they didn't have transwarp at that stage, it being only a very recent assimilation. Isin't there some reference to a species the borg assimilated that had transwarp The "Dauntless" episode iirc. Maybe the borg only assimilated them very recently...

seamus wrote: »

Indeed, why did they only send one more, when we know they had thousands of cubes at their disposal?

One of the biggest questions I have about ST. Why not send at least 500 if they have (probably) millions of ships, just to be sure, create a viable bridgehead etc. Or were they too busy dealing with 8472

Storywriting me thinks caused this one

seamus

Cookie_Monster wrote: »

Long auld trip that as the original cube used warp rather than traswarp to get to Sol, as shown by the fact it had to stop to fight at wolf 359 and the Enterprise caught up with it again.

Indeed, however it would seem that transwarp used some sort of "hubs" and conduits, so if the Borg had never been in that part of space before, perhaps there is some sort of infrastructure which needs to be put in place before transwarp can be used.

Could be that they didn't have transwarp at that stage, it being only a very recent assimilation. Isin't there some reference to a species the borg assimilated that had transwarp The "Dauntless" episode iirc. Maybe the borg only assimilated them very recently...

We know they did have it a few years later, before Voyager (the enterprise encountered it, right?). Actually according to Google, the Raven encountered the technology a good 15 years before TNG. So they had it at the time. Which kind of supports my "infrastructure" theory

Cookie_Monster

seamus wrote: »

Indeed, however it would seem that transwarp used some sort of "hubs" and conduits, so if the Borg had never been in that part of space before, perhaps there is some sort of infrastructure which needs to be put in place before transwarp can be used.

We know they did have it a few years later, before Voyager (the enterprise encountered it, right?). Actually according to Google, the Raven encountered the technology a good 15 years before TNG. So they had it at the time. Which kind of supports my "infrastructure" theory

Ok so that valid then:)
So why didn't they use the transwarp in the first place, like at the end of VOY?

Maybe the wanted to warp in to test the various defences of the alpha quadrant against one ship to see how they stacked up?

Or maybe the Borg are actually just fvckin morons:pac:

Kiith

Voyager totally screwed the Borg. What started out as an unstoppable, almost primal force in the Next Generation, got totally neutered by Voyager. Voyager facing off against a cube? Laughable.

If only they had been assimilated

seamus

Kiith wrote: »

Voyager totally screwed the Borg. What started out as an unstoppable, almost primal force in the Next Generation, got totally neutered by Voyager. Voyager facing off against a cube? Laughable.

If only they had been assimilated

To be fair, First contact set the tone. TNG built up this aura of invincibility - the rapid adaptation, the complete and utter coldness. Then a cube arrives and takes fire, somehow and for some reason cannot adapt despite a battle presumably lasting a number of hours, and is then destroyed by a handful of ships concentrating their fire on one area.

Then instead of being badass and overrunning the ship, they decide that they're going to tease the humans, hide in corners and let the launch take place.

Cookie_Monster

seamus wrote: »

Then instead of being badass and overrunning the ship, they decide that they're going to tease the humans, hide in corners and let the launch take place.

1. Take over lots of the ship assimilating as you go. (They managed this bit)

2. Transport 1/2 drones to every major city on earth.

3. Assimilate anything that moves

4. ?

5. Profit by assimilation:)

Cookie_Monster

Kiith wrote: »

Voyager totally screwed the Borg. What started out as an unstoppable, almost primal force in the Next Generation, got totally neutered by Voyager. Voyager facing off against a cube? Laughable.

If only they had been assimilated

I totally agree with you on this.

Can we keep this thread away from VOY killed the borg if possible, we all know this and wish it wasn't so:(

cyrusdvirus

i remember reading one of the star trek books, dunno which one it was and wouldn't recommend it anyway, but in that one of the captains (Picard Sisko or Janeway) encountered a ship that was lost at wolf 359, except now it was the central hull of a borg ship. Theory being that ships that were damaged, but not totally destrpyed were assimilated and high tailed it off to borg space

Cookie_Monster

gatecrash wrote: »

i remember reading one of the star trek books, dunno which one it was and wouldn't recommend it anyway, but in that one of the captains (Picard Sisko or Janeway) encountered a ship that was lost at wolf 359, except now it was the central hull of a borg ship. Theory being that ships that were damaged, but not totally destrpyed were assimilated and high tailed it off to borg space

While I would accecpt this, most of the books are non-canon, aren't they. IS there an actual canonical answer as there is a clear link between Wolf 359 and some of the VOY borg, on that planet with all the ex-drones that Chakotay visits you wan claims to be from the ships destroyed at wolf.

User45701

its never been explained why the borg didnt send more than 1 ship.

What we do know

A borg ship can operate effectivly even with 78% of the ship inopperable.
- so how was the cube in FC destroyed?

Every other time the ship either self destructed or was tricked somehow. The only other time a borg ship was ever destroyed was voyager destroying that "probe"

We have seen in voyager that as the borg expand they do send large fleets of cubes like at species 10026 ? They where the ones that where on the border of borg space who had develpoed a modulating phaser pulse that could penetrate borg shields, the borg swarmed there system

Also the alien from the dauntless mentioned that for years they where able to outhink the borg but over the years they weaked the outer defences (assumibly assimilating tech and info on the species along the way) But at the end the borg surrounded there homeworld "Hundreds of cubes"

The hive mind is very patient after all time would have very little meaning to a hive mind like that because it is always alive.

Also with regards to humans from 359 showing up in VOY. one of william shatners books explained this saying that in the instant of death deceaced borg are beamed to a "recycling planet" that is layered in countles millions of deceased borg drone that are in the process of being recycled.

Also the borg queen hints at something similar in first contact

piccard: you where there - but how that ship and all the borg on it where destroyed
queen: you think in such three dimensional terms - how small youve become

IvySlayer

Data put all the drones to sleep, so what happened after? Could they have not just invaded the ship and used it for themselves, tactical data?

For me, Voyager ruined the Borg. They were so easy to beat.

DenMan

The cube can operate even if 78% of it is inopperable, that is true. However if the ship is severly damaged in critical areas (in the Borg's case it would be the inability to regenerate) then it is fcuked. Species 8472 seemed to know exactly where to hurt them or it is maybe the fact that their weapons were just so damn powerful. In The Best Of Both Worlds Part 2 it was said by Locutus that humanity would be assimilated after all resistance had been dealt with. They would not have assimilated any of the ships at Wolf 359, the lead ship (which would have been the Enterprise, The Melbourne was completely destroyed at the hull). More than likely any survivors would have been beamed away and assimilated in The Delta Quadrant, like what happened in Voyager when Humans, Vulcans and Klingons were found. The Dominion transporters operate over vaster differences than The Federation and could have transported them to a sphere in the cube and returned to The Delta Quadrant. This does contradict itself as members of The Sarratoga survived (including Ben and Jake Sisko)

I think the most important fact could be VGER itself. The Voyager probe that was launched from Earth, shown in The Motion Picture and mentioned in The Return novel/tape that was found by The Borg and sent back. VGER might have something to do with it (protecting humanity somehow through merging with Decker). The writers never chose to look at this. Maybe in the future.

chamlis

Isn't that what they were getting at in that Star Trek: Legacy game?
But is that really cannon?

Some advanced machine race augmented VGER and sent it on it's way. VGER got lonely and created the Borg, the Borg then went out of control. I'm sure I have that arseways, but something like that?

That story in the game was butchered so much before release it's hard to tell wtf was going on tbh.

Feral Mutant

IvySlayer wrote: »

Data put all the drones to sleep, so what happened after? Could they have not just invaded the ship and used it for themselves, tactical data?

The cube self-destructed after, probably to stop that happening.