TV3 Gone

ei9go

TV3 has been replaced by a test card on DTT from Mt. Leinster. Anybody know why or who should I contact?

gtg60

You can't complain about a trial service :rolleyes:

Mossy Monk

ei9go wrote: »

TV3 has been replaced by a test card on DTT from Mt. Leinster. Anybody know why or who should I contact?

Contact Brian Cowen. Budget cuts are the cause of this.

bugfreebob

gtg60 wrote: »

You can't complain about a trial service :rolleyes:

I disagree - it is important that everyone complains. RTE & TG4 have managed to keep their services working reliably despite the fact that DTT is only on trial. TV3 are a commercial entity - if they realize how many customers on FTA can't receive them, they may decide to fix the problem. I think customers would accept the odd short blip during a trial, but leaving it permanently on a test-card is going to mean that customers will forget about TV3 altogether, and when they finally relaunch on DTT, nobody will be bothered retuning.

The official email for TV3 is info@tv3.ie
Nobody seems to respond. There are a number of PR contacts listed on this page.

www.tv3.ie/pr_intro.php

We should all email the PR contacts with our complaint re DTT not working.

It also might be worth trying to email the CEO. His name is David McRedmond. The TV3 email addresses seem to be of the format <firstname.surname@tv3.ie>, so it should be possible to guess the CEO's email address.

slegs

I agree. TV3 probably have no ieda of the amount of people using the DTT trials as their standard TV reception. It might kick start them into sorting out payment to RTE early.

kiki

Below is the response to my email to TV3 yesterday - looks like we will have the test card until later in the year. Glad its only TV3 missing - I wont be bothering to watch it on analog now that I have DTT and SAT on the one STB - (MVision HD200 Combo) and having to change over to TV tuner now just to surf one channel would be a bit bothersome - fumbling with another remote etc.

Dear xxxxx,

As DTT in Ireland has not officially been launched, the trial is still
ongoing
and no boxes have (as yet) been approved to receive the serice.
Those boxes which do work have not been released through the Boxer
service - the
launch of this service is expected later in 2009.

For this reason, the test card is appearing on some channels on the
current
trial and will remain so until the trial ends and the service proper
begins.

Hopefully you can continue to receive analogue TV3 signals through the
regular aerial
you are using for DTT.

Thank you for your interest in TV3.

Kind regards,
xxxxxxxx
Programming
Tv3

Mossy Monk

TV3 wrote:

Hopefully you can continue to receive analogue TV3 signals through the
regular aerial
you are using for DTT.

Hopefully? LOL.

STB

gtg60 wrote: »

You can't complain about a trial service :rolleyes:

Well gtg I suppose its important to distinguish between "trial" and "tests". The Department of Communications iniated the DTT trial but that ended in July 2008. The transmissions at present are part of RTÉNL national roll out of the DTT tx system. This is not a trial, this is the real mccoy.

Of course there is likely to be plenty of enginneering tests and tweaking as part of this roll out.

Given the rake of tx's that have been turned on in the last few weeks its a pity that TV3 output is not available for whatever the reason. Seeing a test card on the PSB Mux is an embarresment and I dont doubt Slegs explanation.

scath

I suspect that its a cost saving measure that they removed it from the Test. The only question is why now and not last August?
I'd say its a cost saving measure, saving on what they maybe had to pay RTÉ (RTE NL) to carry it on the test? Probably had it on after August just to be sure that it worked fine in MPEG4. Maybe they might have carried it on but for the recession they decided, lets save money on this for the few months since probably not many watching it anyways this way (DTT test).

Means we're not going to see it back until September :-( Probably reading too much into mention of Boxer box, does that mean they might go on the subscription service? Probably not, my impression is that Boxer compliant (Boxer Boxes) will be the ones retailed here and that you can choose to buy it for free-to-air or rent the box for a subscription.

BTW was the Boxer model of 'top up' to be add on top of a 12 month subscription or was it actually like a pre-pay mobile top-up? Elmo was thinking it was just a phrase for adding on further options you wanted from different packages.

The later would be novel and a potential good way of breaking into the pay TV market while the former would come up against existing competitors. Of course churn would be an issue with the monthly top-up where you haven't the revenue locked in as in subscription for 12 months from the business point of view.

TheDriver

tv3 must be on psb mux as its part of their contract. In fact they have stated they want 3e also on the fta section

gtg60

TheDriver wrote: »

In fact they have stated they want 3e also on the fta section

Who's they?

TheDriver

TV3 stated according to another forum few days back. Test card on Mullaghanish too

bugfreebob

kiki wrote: »

Below is the response to my email to TV3 yesterday - looks like we will have the test card until later in the year. Glad its only TV3 missing - I wont be bothering to watch it on analog now that I have DTT and SAT on the one STB - (MVision HD200 Combo) and having to change over to TV tuner now just to surf one channel would be a bit bothersome - fumbling with another remote etc.

Thanks for copying the letter. I haven't got any reply yet. I don't like their attitude in the letter. They appear to assume that DTT=Boxer. The reality is that all DTT receivers being bought in Ireland are FTA. The Govt authorities have published the specifications of DTT in Ireland, and anyone who buys a receiver meeting this spec should be entititled to service without having anything to do with Boxer. Boxer may never happen, and TV3 has been given one of the FTA channels. TV3 appear to be ignoring the FTA market and assuming that DTT won't happen until Boxer launch, if ever. The real issue is that TV3 probably don't like the concept of FTA, because FTA satellite gives users free access to ITV.

It is vital that everyone emails TV3 to express surprise and concern at DTT being switched off. Even if (like me) you are not interested in their rubbishy content, it is important to oppose this threat to FTA.

slegs

bugfreebob wrote: »

Thanks for copying the letter. I haven't got any reply yet. I don't like their attitude in the letter. They appear to assume that DTT=Boxer. The reality is that all DTT receivers being bought in Ireland are FTA. The Govt authorities have published the specifications of DTT in Ireland, and anyone who buys a receiver meeting this spec should be entititled to service without having anything to do with Boxer. Boxer may never happen, and TV3 has been given one of the FTA channels. TV3 appear to be ignoring the FTA market and assuming that DTT won't happen until Boxer launch, if ever. The real issue is that TV3 probably don't like the concept of FTA, because FTA satellite gives users free access to ITV.

It is vital that everyone emails TV3 to express surprise and concern at DTT being switched off. Even if (like me) you are not interested in their rubbishy content, it is important to oppose this threat to FTA.

Exactly. I think you have hit the nail on the head here. TV3 dont see the FTA DTT platform as important at all. They quite obviously associate DTT with Boxer. Either this is a policy agaisnt FTA TV or it is wild ignorance on their part as to the potential of the FTA platform.

And while certified boxes for FTA or Boxer would quite obviously be a huge plus for the market, for them to suggest they will not broadcast until they appear is ridiculous. The spec is clear and as long as its met whether certified of not the boxes and TVs will be and are out there. Certification may never happen either.

Ultimately I think this response is a cover for the fact that they are going to play a game now with BCI and RTE over payment for transmission. The scary bit may be they may not actually have the money to pay for transmission.

This will be interesting to follow.

CHW

What I'd like to know is if it costs more (power) to have this test card displayed? If yes, then how much does it cost, and who's paying for it?

gtg60

CHW wrote: »

What I'd like to know is if it costs more (power) to have this test card displayed? If yes, then how much does it cost, and who's paying for it?

Ha ha, very good point, surely it costs nothing more to carry TV3, I mean they still even carry the EPG data for TV3!!

ronan.michael@g

Clarification from TV3 - recieived today Sun 8/3 - Maybe already posted.
The current DTT tests are for test purposes only, so the signal will be intermittent and replaced with a test card
across all four Irish channels from time to time.

The actual DTT service will not launch until later in 2009, and so the digital MPEG-4 boxes to receive this signal
have not yet been announced, nor is the service intended for public use at this point.

Of course, the DTT test can be received on some MPEG-4 boxes as used in other countries, but at this point the
final specs for the Irish system may differ somewhat and as such should not be relied upon for viewing.

Unfortunately, I cannot give you a firm date for Irish DTT’s launch at this time, but you may want to contract
the licence holder, Boxer Ireland, for further information.

Kind regards,



XXXX XXXXXXX

Programming

TV3

bugfreebob

ronan.michael@g wrote: »

Unfortunately, I cannot give you a firm date for Irish DTT’s launch at this time, but you may want to contract
the licence holder, Boxer Ireland, for further information.

(Note that there is already another thread on this)

It is vital that everyone responds to these emails. TV3 appear to be deliberately confusing the launch of a subscription based DTT service with the requirement to launch FTA DTT in order to comply with the EU directive to replace analogue public service broadcasts. Boxer may never happen, but the existing Free-to-air analogue services still have an obligation to migrate to FTA DTT. Many of us have no intention of subscribing to Boxer even if it does launch. Why would you bother subscribing to Boxer when most of the UK channels are already available Free-to-air? Boxer is most likely to collapse - they ignored the significance of FTA satellite.

The Govt have already published the spec being used for DTT in Ireland. Anyone who buys receivers conforming to this spec should be expected to be able to receive FTA DTT when FTA launches. TV3 are right to say that the current transmission is still on test, however RTE & TG4 have managed to maintain rock-solid signals for months during the test period, and even the test-card from TV3 is rock-solid, so there appears to be no problems with the technology.

If TV3 don't want to transmit FTA DTT, we must let them know that they are already losing large numbers of viewers who are already using FTA.

I wonder whether the BCI would have any issues with TV3's deliberately confusing FTA & Boxer licences? This is unfairly confusing the purchasing decisions of consumers who may end up picking the wrong receiver as a result.

It might be worth copying these letters to the BCI?

More Music

gtg60 wrote: »

Ha ha, very good point, surely it costs nothing more to carry TV3, I mean they still even carry the EPG data for TV3!!

You are correct. But why should RTE carry them FOC if contracts or money still need to be finalised.

It doesn't cost any more to carry the test card instead of TV3. Each DTT transmitter carries 4 channels. If they decide to unplug the video for TV3, there is no real saving to be made as the transmitter needs to be operating for RTE1, RTE2 and TG4 anyway.

More Music

Correct.

They are confusing the DTT issue to save a few euro. They know the average viewer won't know the difference between Boxer DTT and PSB DTT.

The original test period is over. That was run by the DCMNR last year. The rollout of PSB DTT has commenced.

BTW, somebody from TV3 suggested you can still receive us on analog. Yeah right, not in large chunks of the country.

Mossy Monk

Has an announcement been made that states the exclusion of TV3 is the result of a monetary/contractual issue? Regardless of the test that was in the past DTT is still not officially launched. This is still a test.

More Music

Mossy Monk wrote: »

Has an announcement been made that states the exclusion of TV3 is the result of a monetary/contractual issue? Regardless of the test that was in the past DTT is still not officially launched. This is still a test.

Don't forget TV3 have nothing to do with testing DTT, it's RTENL. TV3 just provide RTENL with sound/video. There is no reason for TV3 to put up a test card. It would be upto RTENL if they needed a test card for a few hours to calibrate systems.

What would TV3 have to gain by putting up a test card instead of their actual output? I'm sure they would prefer to have their programmes seen by as many as possible, even during the initial rollout.

RTE stations don't seem to need test cards.

Why would TV3 confuse the Boxer and PSB Mux in a letter to a viewer?

TV3 are buying time. That, after all is free.

RTENL are generating that test card themselves.

They have analogueTV3 available for dtt rebroadcast in the same way as RTE and TG4 at every dtt tx site.

This is some petty decision I think on the part of RTE.

They are going to have to transmit TV3 on dtt eventually.

As for the email from TV3-it's clearly been wrote by someone that hasn't a clue.

gtg60

Deleted User wrote: »

RTENL are generating that test card themselves.

They have analogueTV3 available for dtt rebroadcast in the same way as RTE and TG4 at every dtt tx site.

This is some petty decision I think on the part of RTE.

Maybe we should be emailing RTENL then?

More Music

Deleted User wrote: »

RTENL are generating that test card themselves.

This is some petty decision I think on the part of RTE.

They are going to have to transmit TV3 on dtt eventually.

That was my point. Why would TV3 broadcast a test card? It doesn't serve them any purpose.

So why would RTENL broadcast a TV3 test card instead of the actual output? Afterall, the DTT transmitters in question would be running anyway, they have the TV3 feed on site and it's not costing extra to broadcast TV3 proper instead of a test card.

There can only be 1 reason, mo' money.

BTW, I don't RTENL are being petty. They are not a charity, they are a commercial company that need to support themselves. They don't get any license fee.

More Music

gtg60 wrote: »

Maybe we should be emailing RTENL then?

Why? They are a commercial company.

If RTENL are not reasonably facilitating TV3, then TV3 should have said so instead of spewing some bull about Boxer.

watty

RTENL are under no obligation to carry without payment.

Yes, this is a rollout, but still engineering tests, not a Public service yet. The east coast affair was a political motivated DCNER "trial".

No-one is entitled to any reception from any channel until public launch. In theory RTE, TV3 and TG4 all have to pay RTENL, just as Boxer will. Carriage is not free to broadcaster, just free to receive on PSB mux.

Sponge Bob

If the blockage was an 'arbitrary' one by RTENL you may be sure that TV3 would have howled about it by now . McRedmond was never found wanting in the past .

marclt

So does anyone have a copy of this testcard? Would be nice to get a look at it!

Also, the channels being used by the 'tests' at present... are they going to change once the service launches? I thought RTE were going to use ch 39 but the PSB is on Ch. 45 at present and is restricted to the south east due to interference with the UK.

More Music

Sponge Bob wrote: »

If the blockage was an 'arbitrary' one by RTENL you may be sure that TV3 would have howled about it by now . McRedmond was never found wanting in the past .

He probably won't howl too loudly if TV3 are at fault. RTENL are perfectly within their rights if TV3 aren't paying yet.

RTE, TG4 and TV3 do currently pay RTENL for analog distibution and transmission. As do Today FM.

Regarding DTT frequencies:

Mullaghanish DTT has been assigned channels 21, 24, 25 and 28. RTE are using 21 for the PSB as it's a lower frequency might just carry that little bit further.

slegs

As much as we dont like RTENL are perfectly within their rights to force TV3's hand. It is obvious that payment is the issue behind this. There is no other logical explanation.

gtg60

Why would they be looking for payment when it's only a test service.

I mean, if I were TV3 I wouldn't be paying anything for the tiny number of us that are using the service, could there potentially be any more than 1,000 of us countrywide?

And surely payment just won't be an issue until the service has actually launched?

slegs

gtg60 wrote: »

Why would they be looking for payment when it's only a test service.

I mean, if I were TV3 I wouldn't be paying anything for the tiny number of us that are using the service, could there potentially be any more than 1,000 of us countrywide?

And surely payment just won't be an issue until the service has actually launched?

It takes ages to agree contracts like this. While the money isnt due now I imagine RTE want this sorted before launch.

Onikage

marclt wrote: »

So does anyone have a copy of this testcard? Would be nice to get a look at it!

Been posted before, but here's a version with some epg data

Zonda999

Put on my mvision for the first time in about a week there tonight and i thought it was just my box! At least i'm not the only one!

It is a pity that theyve done it though. I watch more or less nothing on tv3 but its nice that its there, i suppose:rolleyes:

scath

Guys, interesting update on RTENL and a good one I think. They can't be blamed afterwards then if anyone goes out and buys anything that doesn't work in advance of launch.

I enjoyed the recently added 'Building the Network in the 1960s' video, interesting, on the revamped main page: http://www.rtenl.ie or directly at http://www.rtenl.ie/vidoes.php '. Would like to see the multiplexing in action on video.Would be interesting. Good to see Digital TV getting more prominence on their website now.

At:http://www.rtenl.ie/dtt.htm
"Digital Roll Out

RTÉNL is undertaking DTT technical test transmissions in a number of areas. This is being done to verify the engineering integrity of the systems and to confirm coverage.

These test transmissions will operate for varying durations and are subject to regular variations and prolonged interruptions. The test transmissions will cease in the majority of areas once testing is complete and permanent transmissions will not commence until the service is formally launched by the broadcasters.

Under no circumstances should the test transmissions be considered an operational service." I guess in a way that covers TV3 going off too! They could argue that their channel testing is complete and no need for them to continue to be carried. Unlike the other 2 channels which are publicly funded via the TV license and RTÉ2 operated by RTÉ, TV3 is private so no onus on TV3 to continue until launch. Don't know if they had to pay to be carried on the tests but I suspect so like analogue.

BTW, the link to the programming material, emailed em already, just a typo without the o before the f, so should be fixed shortly ;-D

TheDriver

I hope thats just scare tactics or are they maybe shocked at how many people are using the tests for personal usage?

scath

I think they could have done with putting that up back last year when they switched to MPEG4. I have certainly made stakeholders aware via email of the bulletin board here, so they would know that some of us are excited to see what's happening, which perhaps they did not before.

There are always early adopters in any country, even when something isn't promoted. Sometimes early adopters need to be advised for their own good to remember that yes, they can enjoy test service, but must be prepared to realise that this is at their own expense and that the test service provider can't be blamed if that device doesn't work at official service launch time.

The service provider has to be free to launch the best solution for the wider public which can sometimes be more advanced than what was tested as a result of manufacturer improvements or innovations since test time that have emerged.

I think very wise on their part. One thing, I think the broadcasters will want to be very thorough in their launch of DTT. I expect there is going to be a potential for an angry reaction to having to buy a box for every TV for DTT unless the DTT Info Campaign is very dynamic with explaining why this cost has to be incurred. Also there is the potential for satellite and cable to say, no need to buy a new box or TV, stay with us to continue to get Irish TV. And the reality is that analogue TV won't work for those that don't buy a set top box post 2012, so late adopters may go to cable or sky unless the DTT campaign is a good one and that free-to-air is properly promoted, not just part of boxer or whoever if not them. That's why the facility to buy out the box for FTA use is key though the box should be pay-DTT compliant for the sake of making DTT viable for RTÉ NL.

The message must be, it is unfortunate that a set top box is needed for each TV, and we didn't make this technology, but the technology of TV is here and unfortunately requires its purchase, and TV is moving to this solution Europe-wide, including the UK during the next 3 years that will affect us so economically we have to under international agreements by 2015.

In return for buying this box, you will benefit by: more channel choices from Irish broadcasters, more richer teletext and usability options, including for those hard of hearing or visually impaired, less radiowave spectrum required enabling more services to be launched like, wireless broadband, mobile phone TV and interactive option such as Amigo TV (TV viewer Community interaction function) and better return on spectrum use to the Irish state.

The Dept of Social & Family affairs .... assistance for 1 TV for those on lower incomes etc(?).....(I don't know what assistance will be given there by the DSFA given the increase in dole numbers and expense of such or if they will shelve that idea) though one per household may help soothe the public disquiet over set top box purchases in the current climate.

If they get the pitch right, they can nip disquiet in the bud, the disquiet might have been minimal, pre-recession, but could now be palpable on the politicians.

TheDriver

the other question people must ask of course is that not a massive amount of people get psb from aerials anymore, most through sky or upc.Further, most people have no problem paying to put up an aerial and forking out 150-200 euro, even those on what we call lower paid or social welfare seem to have sky installed.

GerardKeating

TheDriver wrote: »

I hope thats just scare tactics or are they maybe shocked at how many people are using the tests for personal usage?

Well, once site is DTT ready (like Three rock) why pay the lecky bills between now and launch..

scath

I was just thinking...have 2 new public service broadcasters, is it the way to go in the current climate? This may be for another thread...

You know the way the Irish Film Channel and Oireachtas TV channels were to be 2 new broadcasters.

Well may it not be cheaper to just create a new RTÉ integrated business unit called RTÉ Oireachtas TV?

And to reconstitute TG4 as TV4 Group, with 3 new integrated business units and 1 reconstituted as
1)Telifís Gaeilge4 (TG4),(Telifís na Gaeilge)
2)Television Arts4 (TA4), (Irish Film Board)
3)Community Television 4 (CT4). (BCI/BAI, DCTV, Cork CTV, P4N)
4) Television Education4 (TE4), (Higher Education Authority, IUA, CIofT)

2, 3 and 4 can timeshare until such time as the 2nd PSB mux comes on stream and then 2 and 3 can share a channel (for programming reasons) and 4 can have its own channel thus by 2012 we can have 2 new public channels RTE Oireachtas and TV4 and post ASO, RTÉ OTV, TE4, TA4/CT4, a 3rd channel.

The benefit of expanding TG4 into a bigger group is central service use efficiencies, and assistance of TG4 expertise in these new operations while by having integrated business units as in RTÉ to do the diverse jobs.

Adding the Oireachtas TV as an integrated business unit of RTÉ will be cheaper than creating a new broadcaster, with the TV license able to assist it alongside the Houses of the Oireachtas Commission funding.

TheDriver

with TV3 now on and TG4 on a test card, we can safely say its not TV3 but rtenl. Wonder did TV3 contact RTENL after a few emails rolled in and they had to put an rte channel on test card for testing purposes and picked the least popular to keep tv3 happy?

STB

Regardless of all that, you dont just turn on and turn off a TX site.

Linking between sites etc on a wide network is very complex. It does help that you have output to monitor.

Tests and Trial do not belong in the one sentence. There is no trial. Engineering Tests of DTT I can just about live with......

The launch is due in the coming months. Its not just "switched on" overnight with a light switch.

scath

Seems Tv3 went off due to testing. It seems thus that the Tv3 reply to ronan.michael@g was correct, that 'the current DTT tests are for test purposes only, so the signal will be intermittent and replaced with a test card across all four Irish channels from time to time'. These seems to be what happened and not anything to do with money. I wonder was it to do with putting up MHEG5 digital teletext for TV3 and nextTG4? Is there a MHEG5 threetext service now? I haven't the equip to tell me.

When you have followers like ourselves its good to put info up someplace like RTE NL.ie outlining testing plans. Its easy to think no-one is paying attention to the test signal and no info is needed, but with the cost of equipment cheaper and people relatively better of than the past, info is good for early adopters to turn them into budding enthusiasts when the service is launched in a way Bord Gáis did with the blogging community.

Of course they have testing to do and need freedom to do that as they see fit but like post launch info on the websites is a good idea pre-public service launch.

I see the new D-Book is out which includes T2: http://www.dtg.org.uk/news/news.php?id=3294

Mossy Monk

scath wrote: »

I guess we got our answer.

In fairness you got your answer a few days ago.

atellyer

Here's my reply from someone from programming at TV3:

This issue (the testcard on FTA DTT channels) is part of RTE NL's DTT technical tests
in its rolling-out of a DTT network.

Please note that at this time, those tests are not currently intended for public reception
of any of the FTA Irish terrestrial channels.

The current test transmissions should also not be considered a reliable means of receiving digital
TV at this time; the tests may be discontinued or interrupted prior to the launch of the FTA
and Pay DTT service, and as such should not become a primary method of reception.
This launch is currently expected within 2009.

In the meantime, TV3 will continue to be transmitted via analogue terrestrial, UPC channel 103
and Sky Digital 103.

Thank you for your interest in TV3.

Kind regards,
XXXXXXXX
Programming
TV3

30ferry

Hi Guys,
Seems all is well, TV3 is back and the programme on teenage kids has some mind blowing images and videos from CCTV around the country. Who said we did not need TV3!!!!

scath

That email seems to address what was percieved the confusion regarding boxer and non boxer in another reply from them to another user. That email is pretty clear and basically tallies with the RTÉ NL notice. So that's good that all stakeholders are on message. So that's it really. We'll just have to take what we receive receptionwise. Its not intended for the public as a primary reception method until launch, so they've no obligation to us. Simple as that. That is fair enough though we may not wish that, but we can enjoy the ride. It might be nice if the test and trial phases could actually become part of the promotion campaign. I wonder will DTT launch be put back until 2010 because of the recession in the hope of recovery of the economy?

TheDriver

DOn't see why it would be put back as all equipment is in place and RTE would actually want boxer to fail so they could pick up the licence that they themselves applied for.
Personally I don't see them switching them off for any period of time as they can contiinually test the equipment by simply leaving them transmitting and stress testing over time, doesn't make much sense to simply switch them off and leave them idle