Cheating in a marathon.

Euchrid

Has anyone ever noticed much cheating during a marathon?

In Barcelona at the weekend, I noticed a lot of people taking small short-cuts where the route was clearly marked around a wide bend. Didn't think too much of this as you are only saving a few meters and the effort involved in jumping big kerbs makes it hardly worth while.

But - At about 24.5 km of the marathon, I met a guy who was really taking the piss. He came running out of a side street and at first I thought he had popped out for a bathroom break as happens. But he came along side me and asked me if we had passed the 25km timing mat yet. As soon as I said no, he said something along the lines of 'Good, for a minute there I thought I had skipped too much of the course', he thanked me, wished me well and took off like a man who hadn't just ran 25km.

This annoyed me just a little bit, so despite the fact that I wasn't feeling very strong at that point, I took off after him. I didn't fancy confronting him so I more or less broke into a sprint to ensure I was on the timing mat at the exact same time as him.

About 30 meters later, you could see the 30km marker which was not far away on an out and back stretch of the course. I was just thinking to myself 'He wouldn't!' when he pulled up to 'tie his laces', walked to the side and then strolled over to a point about 20 meters short of the 30km timing mat.

This all annoyed me a lot. So I spent an hour immediately after the race, trying to find champion chip reps to report the lad too. It was hard to find anyone who both spoke English and cared, but eventually I got the timing managers email address. Sent them the details, including the exact time on the video when you can see my friend and myself on the 25km timing mat. Today I got confirmation that he has been disqualified.

I don't think I would have cared too much if he wasn't so open about what he was up to.

They had a sneaky, unannounced timing mat at 27.5 km which confirmed that he took a short-cut. The crafty bugger sat at the 30km timing mat for 17 mins before continuing.

In his emails to me, the timing guy included 8 others who cheated at that point. One lad went through 30km, 1m 40s after the 25km marker, a particularily stupid cheat.

Apologies for the long-winded post, but I'm just wondering if anyone else has come across this? It would be much easier cheat in places like Dublin that have far less timing mats, but I've never seen it before.

Why would you bother? Would anyone really go around bragging about their marathon time having ran less then half the course? (Other then a mexican politician!) This lad crossed the line in 2:56, why go for a really good time if you are cheating, you should make it realistic!

Anyone out there willing to admit being tempted?

Woddle

Fair play Euchrid and good thinking on speeding up for the mat. Check this link out, its about a show called the biggest loser in America, I'm addicted to watching it http://absolutlyfit.blogspot.com/
Scroll down to the second post called biggest liar

I would imagine there are a few people who feel are put under pressure by a friends time or whatever but no excuses

Euchrid

And your post reminds me of 'Finman', a guy who cheated during Ironman Florida by using swim fins. There was a huge witchhunt to out him..

http://forum.slowtwitch.com/Slowtwitch_Forums_C1/Triathlon_Forum_F1/IM_Florida_Finman_P2075494/

plodder

Euchrid wrote: »

Has anyone ever noticed much cheating during a marathon?
...
Anyone out there willing to admit being tempted?

That's an amazing story. I can't understand the mentality behind that at all. I did a 1/2 marathon in Prague last year and part of the course goes up one side of a street, and then 3 or 4 km later comes back down the other side of the same street. There was only a thin rope between the two sides. If I recall correctly, there was a timing mat placed to catch anyone who tried it. But I did think, it must have been tempting for the stragglers near the end of the field.

As for cheating in Dublin, you'd have to be quite well organised, since you need to cover a big enough distance to cross the city, though it's certainly possible. I think last year, there were some extra (though not many) timing mats.

shels4ever

Euchrid wrote: »

Has anyone ever noticed much cheating during a marathon?

In Barcelona at the weekend, I noticed a lot of people taking small short-cuts where the route was clearly marked around a wide bend. Didn't think too much of this as you are only saving a few meters and the effort involved in jumping big kerbs makes it hardly worth while.

But - At about 24.5 km of the marathon, I met a guy who was really taking the piss. He came running out of a side street and at first I thought he had popped out for a bathroom break as happens. But he came along side me and asked me if we had passed the 25km timing mat yet. As soon as I said no, he said something along the lines of 'Good, for a minute there I thought I had skipped too much of the course', he thanked me, wished me well and took off like a man who hadn't just ran 25km.

This annoyed me just a little bit, so despite the fact that I wasn't feeling very strong at that point, I took off after him. I didn't fancy confronting him so I more or less broke into a sprint to ensure I was on the timing mat at the exact same time as him.

About 30 meters later, you could see the 30km marker which was not far away on an out and back stretch of the course. I was just thinking to myself 'He wouldn't!' when he pulled up to 'tie his laces', walked to the side and then strolled over to a point about 20 meters short of the 30km timing mat.

This all annoyed me a lot. So I spent an hour immediately after the race, trying to find champion chip reps to report the lad too. It was hard to find anyone who both spoke English and cared, but eventually I got the timing managers email address. Sent them the details, including the exact time on the video when you can see my friend and myself on the 25km timing mat. Today I got confirmation that he has been disqualified.

I don't think I would have cared too much if he wasn't so open about what he was up to.

They had a sneaky, unannounced timing mat at 27.5 km which confirmed that he took a short-cut. The crafty bugger sat at the 30km timing mat for 17 mins before continuing.

In his emails to me, the timing guy included 8 others who cheated at that point. One lad went through 30km, 1m 40s after the 25km marker, a particularily stupid cheat.

Apologies for the long-winded post, but I'm just wondering if anyone else has come across this? It would be much easier cheat in places like Dublin that have far less timing mats, but I've never seen it before.

Why would you bother? Would anyone really go around bragging about their marathon time having ran less then half the course? (Other then a mexican politician!) This lad crossed the line in 2:56, why go for a really good time if you are cheating, you should make it realistic!

Anyone out there willing to admit being tempted?

Well i found the same in a recient XC race too, people running a better line and not going around the propper course.
I dont know what you would get out of running less then the race distance in a quicker time..

Bambaata

Yeah in Barcelona there were loads of conrner cutters! They wouldnt have really gained much but i really cant ubnderstand the guy you describe! For me the marathon is a personal challenge. I'm not doing it to try to impress anyone !

Krusty_Clown

Well done Euchrid! I too cannot understand the mentality of cheating in race where the only person you are really competing against is yourself (or any race for that matter). Surely after doing something like this, you would not gain any sense of accomplishment, just a loss of self-respect.

I'm delighted that the cheaters may have traveled to Barcelona at their own expense, only to be disqualified. I hope they were not doing it on the back of a charity expedition.

--amadeus--

Well done on chasing it down and getting something done about it.

I suppose it's like anything else - in all walks of life you'll get people who want the "glory" without the effort. Makes no sense to me but I suppose that they would get a kind of satisfaction at having "got one over" on everyone.

There is a difference between taking the best line and cheating or cutting corners though. Race organisers (as far as I know) are supposed to measure teh shortest distance around a route (ie corner apex to corner apex) so it makes sense to run that way as well rather than sticking rigidly to teh road lane. In fact i think a Boston marathon was once won that way

RacoonQueen

I suppose cutting corners etc is similar to people running on the paths along chesterfield avenue instead of on the road in the adidas race series. I wouldn't even be savvy enough to know where the timing mats were to be honest.

A patient of mine told me about one of his friends who ran one of the earlier dublin marathons ran the first ten miles or so then got in his car drove to mile 22 and ran the last four giving him a pretty impressive finish time.

rovers_runner

There were a couple of roads that doubled back on themselves in Barca but the seemed to be covered by the timing mats.

Was a fantastic course all in all, really tough finish though with a 3k drag uphill.
Much better organisation than Dublin (the only other one I've done).
I have a feeling now that Dublin could go a long way to improve itself.

Was nice to have the course marked in km also and the crowds were very good in general although there were a few dopes around Las Ramblas that nearly knocked people when trying to get from one cake shop to the others the gits.

The videos on the site are good to have, need to find a way of ripping them to keep a copy.

TheRoadRunner

Wow fair play to you for chasing it up. I wouldn't bother cheating in a race myself. Some reasons why a guy might have cheated like this is
1) to win a bet
2) to get a qualifying time for a big city marathon
Neither worth cheating for IMO

Euchrid

Well if he was after a qualifying time, it was no good to him. I checked the results and he is already removed from there. Along with the other 8 people they caught.

When I mentioned people cutting corners - I know how they measure the course and I've no problem with people cutting it tight around a bend, but what I noticed was a few times people nipping in behind a parked car and cutting 10/15 meters off a bend when there was no building in the way, but the course was clearly intended to stick to the road. I remember one funny incident when 2 guys cut a fairly big way off a bend and someone started shouting 'Cheat' at them, about 20 people joined in shouting. They knew they were wrong and were cleanly embarrassed. But that's small potatoes compared to the other guy.

I'd love to get his email address but I'm guessing they won't give it to me!

Peckham

Fair play Euchrid - you were right to follow it up, although a lot of us probably wouldn't have bothered doing so post-race.

henryporter

When I read this I was thinking what's the point of entering a marathon and cheating.TheRoadRunners reply makes some sense, but why would anyone want to get a time to qualify for a marathon if they weren't prepared to run a full one in the first place. Isn't the whole point to gain a sense of achievement. Obviously the cheaters are running low on self-esteem. Well done Euchrid for taking a stand. The fact that another runner died trying to run that course makes those people look like right jerks.

Hard Worker

Up to 200 disqualified in Dublin last year. This would be people who didn't even cross the start mat and people who skipped part of the course. It would also be people who wore someone elses number. I reckon 200 dq's per 10000 is about normal.

LambDave

I remember a county schools XC race back in my "hayday" I came sprinting into the finish area at the end of 3 laps in second place when a guy that I was lapping cut into the finishing schute in front of me. I was shocked when the guy at the finish was about to give him the silver medal, until the guy's coach came running over to tell them he'd cheated!! Really funny when i look back actually!

robinph

Never noticed any cheating as major as that myself, but in Dublin last year there was some corner cutting going on at the top of O'Connell Street. I was intending to follow the road round, but it was actually safer to cut the corner due to the sudden rush of people from all directions cutting infront once they noticed the opportunity to cut the corner coming up. There was another bigger corner that I remember people cutting a lot further down the course, but was not many taking that route and the field had thined out a lot by then as well.

Euchrid

200 disqualified is a lot in Dublin. Wonder what the breakdown of reasons is. To be honest, I wouldn't see much wrong with those wearing a number registered to someone else. I think most race organisers could be a lot more helpful with enabling people to transfer numbers. Some are helpful and some are more then happy to enjoy the guaranteed extra cash that not allowing transfers brings.

I know the Boards policy on that and I know people here will disagree but that's my two cents!

On Barcelona, I'd normally leave that kind of thing myself with a 'He's only cheating himself attitude' but this guy really got to me. I got a right bee in my bonnet and ended up dragging a buddy back up all the steps to the expo area to find someone who then sent me back down to the chip tent at the finish, who sent me to someone else. All while hobbling around in a singlet and getting pretty cold. I was keeping an eye out for him as well, in the hope of discussing his race plan in front of his family or friends, but no such luck!

Racing Flat

Wouldn't bother me tbh, would find it amusing. He might think he beat me, he might tell people he beat me and they might believe that he beat me, but I'd know I beat him...

One of the reasons I got into running is because I got a bit sick of the dependence on others and cheating in soccer. Running I'm competing against myself in the main, so not too worried what others do.

TheRoadRunner

Racing Flat wrote: »

Wouldn't bother me tbh, would find it amusing. He might think he beat me, he might tell people he beat me and they might believe that he beat me, but I'd know I beat him...

One of the reasons I got into running is because I got a bit sick of the dependence on others and cheating in soccer. Running I'm competing against myself in the main, so not too worried what others do.

Same reasons why I gave up soccer.

The cheating thing would annoy me a bit though. I like to see my final position in the field and would be pissed if a cheater finished ahead of me. There are no prizes involved it's just the principle.

Also if that guy was cheating to get into a big city marathon he and his like are pushing the bar (qualifying standard) higher for honest athletes.

Hard Worker

Euchrid wrote: »

To be honest, I wouldn't see much wrong with those wearing a number registered to someone else. I think most race organisers could be a lot more helpful with enabling people to transfer numbers. Some are helpful and some are more then happy to enjoy the guaranteed extra cash that not allowing transfers brings.

I know the Boards policy on that and I know people here will disagree but that's my two cents!

It has nothing to do with "guaranteed extra cash". The most important thing about not being allowed to transfer numbers is a health and safety issue. You obviously don't realise how important it is to be able to identify someone in a race.
Also, not much point in John Smith, aged 30, winning a masters prize for Mary Dunne, aged 45.

cfitz

Hard Worker wrote: »

It has nothing to do with "guaranteed extra cash". The most important thing about not being allowed to transfer numbers is a health and safety issue. You obviously don't realise how important it is to be able to identify someone in a race.
Also, not much point in John Smith, aged 30, winning a masters prize for Mary Dunne, aged 45.

If that was the only issue could you not just allow people to buy a place in the marathon and then just submit their personal details a week or two before the race? Then there would be very little need to transfer numbers.

Euchrid

Hard Worker wrote: »

Also, not much point in John Smith, aged 30, winning a masters prize for Mary Dunne, aged 45.

Agreed. But there is very little admin involved in the organisers allowing Mary to email them, say she can't make it and young John would like to take her number.

To me, the reason this isn't allowed in races is the "guaranteed extra cash". The H&S aspect is then thrown around to discourage discussion.

Racing Flat

Euchrid wrote: »

Agreed. But there is very little admin involved in the organisers allowing Mary to email them, say she can't make it and young John would like to take her number.

To me, the reason this isn't allowed in races is the "guaranteed extra cash". The H&S aspect is then thrown around to discourage discussion.

But is Mary going to be bothered e-mailing second time round? The first time she has to contact the organisers to register, pay and get a number. Second time not being essential she might not be bothered, thinking 'what harm is it?'

The sad case recently in Barcelona should highlight this. With details the organisers can get from the race number medical staff can be advised of relevant details and next of kin can be contacted. As this is so important, being strict on it is probably necessary.

TheRoadRunner

I know this is going off topic but ...........talking about transferring numbers and organisers saying the reason they don't allow it is for health and safety. I can see some logic in this but most numbers have a section of the back of it where you can fill in details such as your name and any illness you may have.

If god forbid anything happened to me while running I doubt the first medical people on the scene are going to contact the race orgainser and see if I have logged any medical info with them when I entered. I reckon they are going to check the back of my number first. Therefore filling in the details on the number negates the health and safety issue in my book. That's just my view obviously. I have yet to hear a good argument to change this though.

Krusty_Clown

Euchrid wrote: »

Agreed. But there is very little admin involved in the organisers allowing Mary to email them, say she can't make it and young John would like to take her number.

To me, the reason this isn't allowed in races is the "guaranteed extra cash". The H&S aspect is then thrown around to discourage discussion.

I don't think there is any guaranteed extra cash. The T-shirt is already printed, the medal cut, the goody bag assembled, and the race marshals prepared for the number of entrants who have signed up. I do agree that a little more flexibility would be great, up to a fixed time-line before an event (e.g. 4 weeks) to transfer, postpone, or change distances.

But we've gone off topic. Well done again on your pursuit of the guilty, if we all followed your example, and kept a vigilant eye, this kind of thing would never happen.

Hard Worker

None of the World major marathons allow for transfers or refunds. There is no guaranteed extra cash because that policy would be allowed for in the race budget.
If you don't understand the health and safety aspect of identifying people by the race number, then try to organise a race without that in your event plan. You wouldn't be allowed to stage the event.
Back on topic, I remember one year in Dublin, when the race finished in O'Connell Street, a stocky snow white specimen of a non athlete came accross the line in 5th place. He finished ahead of Noel Richardson. It was quite obvious that this chap hadn't run the distance. There were no chip mats at that time so it would have been a difficult case to prove in an instant. The bloke had no shame.
There was also a case about 4 or 5 years ago where a woman from Kerry crossed the line in about 2.45 as 3rd Irishwoman. You could also see that she wasn't exactly a fine specimen of an athlete. She showed no shame either when she was disqualified.

Euchrid

I know there are set costs for the races, but in some of the bigger races that have a huge capacity for instance, if there was an easy way to swap numbers, then people would do that rather then entering directly themselves. By refusing swaps, the race organisers get a good bit of extra revenue but very few extra participants.

And some of the more popular and limited entry races know that they will have a significant number of people not turn up on any given day. I'm pretty sure some take advantage of that by over-suscribing to increase revenue. I was told that anywhere between 15% and 25% don't show up to most Triathlons in Ireland.

Anyway - way off topic so let's kill that! Didn't mean to go off on that at all.

Euchrid

I do see the H&S aspect, but in my view, when races refuse to allow any kind of swap, they nearly encourage people to take random numbers.

I like the 3rd Irish woman story. The cheek of some people! Wasn't there a story years ago from the NY marathon where they believed a winner cheated but couldn't prove it?

Found it... Rosie Ruiz

mrak

LambDave wrote: »

I remember a county schools XC race back in my "hayday" I came sprinting into the finish area at the end of 3 laps in second place when a guy that I was lapping cut into the finishing schute in front of me. I was shocked when the guy at the finish was about to give him the silver medal, until the guy's coach came running over to tell them he'd cheated!! Really funny when i look back actually!

I wouldn't assume he was cheating.. he could just get dopey in XC and make mistakes.. XC seems to empty my brain as much as the lungs - I can never count the laps, etc. Maybe the lack of mile markers. Sometimes crowds or confusion can force folk to miss the odd flag as well which I don't think is a big deal as long as it's not too regular or cutting corners. I never came in a lap short, but lots of times I get confused in the count and one time I carried on to start another lap when I should have turned in, dropping me out of medals. Especially easy to mess up in county-level small scale XC where you might be running on your own in the hammering rain, or on badly-measured courses (e.g. this year's vets was supposed to be 7k but it was well short so I thought I must have one more lap to go when I was coming towards the end in 21mins).

Good catch on reporting the cheating marathoner though - he was obviously rimming it.

Krusty_Clown

This story about Jean's Marines really takes the biscuit, particularly as they were running for a charity, that no doubt was tainted by their cheating.. Wow, negative vibe on the forum today!

911sc

mp1972 wrote: »

I suppose cutting corners etc is similar to people running on the paths along chesterfield avenue instead of on the road in the adidas race series.

AFAIK and if i am not mistaken, this is ok. The course is measured using the shortest possible route. So, if you fancy going up the kerb, cut the corner on the grass, and get off the kerb, you have not done anything wrong.
If you stay on the road, you probably would run more than 26.2miles.

I must admit I don't cut corners as the kerbs towards the end would feel like Mount Everest.

Racing Flat

911sc wrote: »

The course is measured using the shortest possible route. So, if you fancy going up the kerb, cut the corner on the grass, and get off the kerb, you have not done anything wrong.
If you stay on the road, you probably would run more than 26.2miles.

shortest possible route on the road I would imagine

PainIsTemporary

Dublin city marathon 2/3 years ago, cheering on some of the lads in the club looking for sub 3hr at the corner by Kilmainham jail [near the half way mark that year I think] . Just around the corner when was turning to cycle into town by Heuston passed 2 runners rounding the corner pinning numbers to singlets as they were making their way around the corner to join 3hr/3hr10 marathon runners having skipped a good 10 miles and looking fresh as daisies. P*ssed me off at the time. Later on was at the finishing area just down from Merrion Square around a mile from the finish and as the elite women were coming in to finish an elderly man and women wearing t-shirts with their charity logo on them came running hand in hand [race numbers on] within 5-10mins of 1st lady passing and looking fresh as hell. Don't know if disqualified or not. Would like to think so. Don't understand their reasoning behind it, their cheating themselves as well as everyone else. Hope chip timing means their automatically disqualified.

plodder

Racing Flat wrote: »

shortest possible route on the road I would imagine

I imagine the front-runners have to stick exactly to the course (on the road). I wonder would they be DQ'd for stepping off it all??

But, where I'd be running (with the masses), you are less likely to be able to run the shortest course anyway, and are probably covering more than 26.2 miles if you stick to the road, so it's no big deal (imho) to step up on the footpath, especially if it's to pass a clump of people that's slowed down.

jimbo007

rovers_runner wrote: »

There were a couple of roads that doubled back on themselves in Barca but the seemed to be covered by the timing mats.

Was a fantastic course all in all, really tough finish though with a 3k drag uphill.
Much better organisation than Dublin (the only other one I've done).
I have a feeling now that Dublin could go a long way to improve itself.

Was nice to have the course marked in km also and the crowds were very good in general although there were a few dopes around Las Ramblas that nearly knocked people when trying to get from one cake shop to the others the gits.

The videos on the site are good to have, need to find a way of ripping them to keep a copy.

Ran in it too, v. tough finish alright!
I know off topic, but to get the videos i used realplayer, when you hover over a video in internet explorer it gives a popup to download it..
also you can use firefox and get the "DownloadHelper" add in, then click on this to download the videos...
Think i'm gonna buy the dvd myself later!

Back on-topic, fair play for exposing him, can't see why you'd want to either.. I didnt see any cheaters but prob coz was so far down the field