Joan Burton with Vincent Brown

Sully

With all the support Labour are getting in the polls and so much airtime finally someone is willing to push for some sort of information. Vincent is giving Joan a bit of a grilling at the moment and she keeps dodging the question.

ffs Joan get on with it.

Red Sleeping Beauty

I've begun to like Vince Browne. The poor guy looks like he's about to have a stroke everytime someone doesn't answer his question. Someone should've told him that these people he has on are well aware of what Robert McNamera once said - "Answer the question you wanted to be asked rather than the question you were actually asked"

Edit: If this wasn't the politics forum that thread title could be taken the wrong way

Red Alert

FF and particularly Eamonn Ryan of the Greens have taken that method to the extreme recently..... Vincent Brown and Marian Finucaine are pretty much the only people that'll pull people up on it.

John_C

That was good fun.

deadhead13

Heard a radio interview with Eamon Gilmore last week. He was asked the same questions and we got the same waffle. Nice one Vincent.

dave-higgz

I've always liked the opposition because it just seemed that FF were making stupid moves in government and that they had the answers but I've realized that they're only making general statements!

I was extremely disappointed with Joan Burton's handling of this tonight. I thought that she'd be well able for Vincent Browne and he usually leaves his hard questioning to the government guests on his show.

What we need is for all the opposition parties to, on every day of the week come out and say exactly what they'd do if they were in government. We need to know the precise numbers for changes in tax etc. if they are to be credible, going into the next election, whenever it arrives

vinylbomb

alan dunne 27 wrote: »

I've begun to like Vince Browne.

I;ve begun to think he's a bit of a dope after that article he wrote in the Times (I stress, I think!!!) today saying all the banks should be in government ownership for "perpetuity".

Plot. Is. Lost.

10000maniacs

Vincent Browne is a legend.
For months labour and Fine Gael have been squawking inane soundbytes from the sidelines offering nothing of substance in terms of solutions. Joan Burton has been shown for what she is tonight. Thanks Vincent.
What do you mean fairness?:D How will you get the €5 Billion.:D
The Public service should have a 13% pay cut along with the pension levy. Too true.
On a seperate subject,
I was just banned from www.askaboutmoney.ie and all my posts and threads removed for expressing a similar view.
Who moderates that forum? SIPTU?:mad:

vinylbomb

Mind you thats not to say that Labour (and FG) dont deserve to be slaughtered after their shambolic performance in recent weeks.

And I vote Labour!! I cringed listening to Pat Rabbitte sniping on Prime time last night.

cm2000

Pathetic performance from Burton. Just shows when the Labour Party have to make the tough decisions they can't. Hopefully the opinion polls start to reflect this. At least Fine Gael were making some worthwhile suggestions.

Sully

FG may have got a lot in the past but lately its a lot more labour and no other opposition (even the smaller partys) nor the government are given much room to talk. Labour have some great speakers but the behaviour we saw on Vincent Brown tonight is something that FF do and its something I really dislike.

I havent heard to many interviews with FG being asked questions like this, only one on NewsTalk where they were straight up and honest. Id like to see more from the opposition partys.

I can understand them not wanting to be specific but geez Vincent was asking for a rough idea. Anything. Not the complete solution.

population

It was a shocking performance and leaves me with nobody to vote for:mad:

Have traditionally voted Green but now that they are FF's poodles (and over the moon at the situation!!!) they will never get my vote EVER again.

Back to Labour though, what an absolute shambles that was. No figures no direction no bloody anything! Just keep moaning about capping bankers pay (which is the red herring to beat all red herrings btw).

The worst was when she turned into a 4 year old and blurted out 'you dont ask the government these kinds of questions'. Browne couldnt believe it and just kept asking her 'oh dont I now???'. Vinny has been a pain in FF's arse for more years than I care to remember. He asks the tough qs of everyone who has a responsibility to the public and to suggest otherwise just because she had no policies was wholly disrespectful.

10000maniacs

population wrote: »

It was a shocking performance.

I totally agree. The shameful way that labour have reacted to the credit crunch (and Fine Gael for that matter) have at least contributed to the abyss we now face. They have injected fuel into the militant left's arsenal without any substance to back up their hysteric accusations.
I am not a Fianna Failer by any means, but seeing the hysteric rants of Gilmore, Burton and Kenny every night trying to destabalise an already critical situation makes me want to vote for Fianna Fail in the next election. I know I am in a minority now, but putting the likes of Burton, Gilmore and Kenny into power WILL hammer the final nail into Irelands coffin.

harsea8

10000maniacs wrote: »

I totally agree. The shameful way that labour have reacted to the credit crunch (and Fine Gael for that matter) have at least contributed to the abyss we now face. They have injected fuel into the militant left's arsenal without any substance to back up their hysteric accusations.
I am not a Fianna Failer by any means, but seeing the hysteric rants of Gilmore, Burton and Kenny every night trying to destabalise an already critical situation makes me want to vote for Fianna Fail in the next election. I know I am in a minority now, but putting the likes of Burton, Gilmore and Kenny into power WILL hammer the final nail into Irelands coffin.

Well said. The opposition parties only policy seems to be to knock everything the governing party do, yet never suggest an alternative course of action. In other words political point scoring is more important to them than sorting the country out and they haven't a fecking clue how to sort the country out anyways. In honesty, I'd be totally lost if they had a GE now as no-one seems to be able to come up with a clear, confident way of addressing the sh*te we are currently in.

future_plans

Classic interview really.

Only vague answers with no substance and cannot seem to answer a question without mentioning the government!! What a load of bs.

Like Enda Kenny, cannot make a statement without demanding an apology.

Let's face facts. The government are out of their depth and the opposition are chasing their tails.

eoinbn

dave-higgz wrote: »

I was extremely disappointed with Joan Burton's handling of this tonight. I thought that she'd be well able for Vincent Browne and he usually leaves his hard questioning to the government guests on his show.

What we need is for all the opposition parties to, on every day of the week come out and say exactly what they'd do if they were in government. We need to know the precise numbers for changes in tax etc. if they are to be credible, going into the next election, whenever it arrives

I don't think they need to be that precise, but they need to give us an idea of their 'grand plan', as it is something they keep asking the government to produce.
The reason she is avoiding the question is because the answer isn't going to sit well with the party support, especially the new arrivals from the public sector.

CiaranC

future_plans wrote: »

Let's face facts. The government are out of their depth and the opposition are chasing their tails.

Exactly.

There is no way out of this mess. Thats why noone has a plan.

Sully

I don't agree with comments that no party are making plans as both labour and fg have publicly stated some ideas. Furthermore, kenny did respond to questions when directly asked though maybe with other stuff on repeat.

This is what an opposition party do and why there ranked so high in polls atm. Don't forget that - ff would do the same.

Powerhouse

Red Alert wrote: »

FF and particularly Eamonn Ryan of the Greens have taken that method to the extreme recently..... Vincent Brown and Marian Finucaine are pretty much the only people that'll pull people up on it.

I heard Joan Burton on the radio recently completely ignore, numerous times, the question of whether Labour would raise taxes if in government. No obviously for any reasonably discerning listener a refusal to answer a question is indicative of what the actual answer is, but clearly Labour are mindful of the opinion polls and it is working for them.

Browne, in my view, does sometimes waste too much time nagging politicians over questions they clearly won't answer and fails to move on. These people are trained in avoiding answers so they will hardly be fazed over a repetition of the same question.

While people often champion Jeremy Paxman's treatment of Michael Howard in that famous interview where he kept repeating the question, they fail to acknowledge Howard's ease in not getting ruffled and his success in not giving the answer the interviewer was looking for or dealing with the question in the interviewer's terms.

future_plans

Sully, maybe I missed the Labours and FG's detailed plans to save the economy when they were announced. I'd sincerely love to see them (and I am not being sarcastic). I think the whole country are desperate to see them because all I have heard to date are vague, generalist proposals....cut public spending, raise taxes, make the process equitable and so on. There is no substance in those proposals. They are just some principles really.

10000maniacs

Sully wrote: »

I don't agree with comments that no party are making plans as both labour and fg have publicly stated some ideas. Furthermore, kenny did respond to questions when directly asked though maybe with other stuff on repeat.

This is what an opposition party do and why there ranked so high in polls atm. Don't forget that - ff would do the same.

Yeah, but we are now in a truely critical situation, and every comment and soundbyte no matter how mundane or inane has the potential to have disastrous implications. I don't mind the opposition giving constructive alternatives, but for example, Labours 5 point plan where the fifth point was the resignation of Cowan. FFS:D Also Kennys inane plea to the the Dail "Does the house feel that the Taoiseach owes the Irish people a public apology?" How will this help the current situation?

brianthebard

10000maniacs wrote: »

I totally agree. The shameful way that labour have reacted to the credit crunch (and Fine Gael for that matter) have at least contributed to the abyss we now face. They have injected fuel into the militant left's arsenal without any substance to back up their hysteric accusations.
I am not a Fianna Failer by any means, but seeing the hysteric rants of Gilmore, Burton and Kenny every night trying to destabalise an already critical situation makes me want to vote for Fianna Fail in the next election. I know I am in a minority now, but putting the likes of Burton, Gilmore and Kenny into power WILL hammer the final nail into Irelands coffin.

Who's the militant left and how are FG contributing to their arsenal?

10000maniacs

brianthebard wrote: »

Who's the militant left and how are FG contributing to their arsenal?

The unions. ICTU, SIPTU. Fine Gael are firing them on by saying that for example the pension levy is unfair to lower paid Public servants. The unions then use these soundbytes as justification for rallying their troops and bringing the country to a standstill, making the situation even worse.

spadder

alan dunne 27 wrote: »

I've begun to like Vince Browne. The poor guy looks like he's about to have a stroke everytime someone doesn't answer his question. Someone should've told him that these people he has on are well aware of what Robert McNamera once said - "Answer the question you wanted to be asked rather than the question you were actually asked"

Edit: If this wasn't the politics forum that thread title could be taken the wrong way

Yeah, I Like Vincent's show myself, pity it's not on a bit earlier instead of the celebrity fluff they have on.
He gave Tom Kitt a lashing for waffling this week too. If this becomes his trade mark, I could see him become very popular.
Ireland needs a "Jeremy Paxman". The fact that he's on TV3 means their not fearful of loosing their license fees.

P. Breathnach

<snip>

10000maniacs

P. Breathnach wrote: »

<snip>

I know its off topic and sorry, but I will make a point about this. There is nothing honourable about www.askaboutmoney's policy about banning somebody and deleting all threads written by someone who expresses an opinion about public servants.
You can't even disscuss the housing market there without getting banned.:eek:
The biggest financial issue facing the country at the moment.
Just wanted to make that point.
Now back to the real issue. Joan Burton.

nesf

I've deleted the post and references to it which attacked a user on the other site.

I'd appreciate it if people refrained from attacking other sites on this forum.

ateam

"Fair and balanced tax measures" - Joan Burton's mantra. She was unwilling to actually explain what they meant. Shambles.

nesf

ateam wrote: »

"Fair and balanced tax measures" - Joan Burton's mantra. She was unwilling to actually explain what they meant. Shambles.

It's the advantage of being in Opposition. You don't actually need to implement any policy so you can stick to general principles and avoid showing people how you'd actually do it.

future_plans

future_plans wrote: »

Classic interview really.

Only vague answers with no substance and cannot seem to answer a question without mentioning the government!! What a load of bs.

Like Enda Kenny, cannot make a statement without demanding an apology.

Let's face facts. The government are out of their depth and the opposition are chasing their tails.

Good sum up there.
FG should be running away with it at the moment and they are not because they are afraid to dump Kenny.
Labour are gone all populist out at every demo looking for protest votes.
What use is that?

I actually like Joan Burton but last nights interview was her exposed as useless sadly.
She was on the point of going waaaah waaaah Vincent bash FF not me....

Joan,I need answers.The country needs answers not just a new set of bufoons at the helm.

P. Breathnach

Deleted User wrote: »

Joan,I need answers.The country needs answers not just a new set of bufoons at the helm.

Here's an answer for you: the exchequer needs about €2.5-3k extra per taxpayer. You won't lower that average greatly just by hitting those on household incomes over, say, €100k. Would you vote for any party that said that it would impose taxes at such levels on you?

No party is saying what it proposes, even those parties that are currently in government. They don't want to frighten the electorate unless and until the voters get their heads around the scale of the problems we face. We are a long way from being ready for the necessary medicine.

nesf

P. Breathnach wrote: »

Here's an answer for you: the exchequer needs about €2.5-3k extra per taxpayer.

It's closer to €10K per worker in reality to close the full deficit.

P. Breathnach

P. Breathnach wrote: »

Here's an answer for you: the exchequer needs about €2.5-3k extra per taxpayer. You won't lower that average greatly just by hitting those on household incomes over, say, €100k. Would you vote for any party that said that it would impose taxes at such levels on you?

No party is saying what it proposes, even those parties that are currently in government. They don't want to frighten the electorate unless and until the voters get their heads around the scale of the problems we face. We are a long way from being ready for the necessary medicine.

The current lot will be forced to say it next month.
The others will continue to do what all oppositions do untill they get into power and dodge.

By the way I dont think taking 16 billion out of the economy is going to work.
How in blazes could it as everyone will be cutting back even more than now.
Services will have less and less custom.
VAT income will be lower and lower and the jobless total will go north of 500K.

Other countries will recover before this one so it will be back to large scale emmigration to lower the SW burden.

I genuinely reckon the ineptitude I've seen in the last 6 months is going to need 10 years for recovery not 2 or 3.

P. Breathnach

nesf wrote: »

It's closer to €10K per worker in reality to close the full deficit.

Well, according to some, people employed in the public sector don't work, so that pushes it up a bit further! As a pensioner, though, I might buy into the idea that only those currently at work should contribute to the cause.

My suggestion was a ball park figure based on the suppositions (a) that there would also be expenditure cuts and (b) that it is not seriously practicable to close the gap fully in the short term.

nesf

P. Breathnach wrote: »

Well, according to some, people employed in the public sector don't work, so that pushes it up a bit further! As a pensioner, though, I might buy into the idea that only those currently at work should contribute to the cause.

My suggestion was a ball park figure based on the suppositions (a) that there would also be expenditure cuts and (b) that it is not seriously practicable to close the gap fully in the short term.

b) is very much the case, it'd cripple the economy to take 20 billion out of it in one year. It's more of a "this is why trimming 5 billion in the next mini-budget is necessary" type thing.

professore

Assume working population of 1.5 million. Assume hole is 20 bln over next 5 years.

€ 20,000,000,000 / € 1,500,000 = € 13,333.33 per head, or € 2,666 per worker per annum.

nesf

professore wrote: »

Assume working population of 1.5 million. Assume hole is 20 bln over next 5 years.

The estimated deficit for 2009 was circa €14-15 billion back in October of last year. This was assuming far better tax returns and lower unemployment than what has transpired since then. Estimated tax take was approx €43.5 billion and estimate expenditure was over €58.2 billion. Link: http://www.finance.gov.ie/documents/publications/other/whitepaper08eng.pdf

The numbers I've seen thrown around recently was something closer to a 20 billion deficit for this year if spending and taxes are left as is.


The hole will be a lot bigger than 20 billion over the next 5 years unfortunately.

To put this into perspective for people our entire expenditure on the HSE in a year is only €12.3 billion. You could close down every hospital in the country and fire each and every nurse and doctor and we'd still be short €8 billion euro (income tax only brings in €13 billion in a good year and you can revise that figure downwards for this year).

eoinbn

professore wrote: »

Assume working population of 1.5 million. Assume hole is 20 bln over next 5 years.

€ 20,000,000,000 / € 1,500,000 = € 13,333.33 per head, or € 2,666 per worker per annum.

If you mean that each year a worker will have to pay an EXTRA €2,666 then yes.
In reality if we do somehow manage it, it will be €7b taxs, €7b cuts and hope to the economy can grow back the other €7b.

nesf

eoinbn wrote: »

If you mean that each year a worker will have to pay an EXTRA €2,666 then yes.
In reality if we do somehow manage it, it will be €7b taxs, €7b cuts and hope to the economy can grow back the other €7b.

The hole is more like 10-13K per worker per year unfortunately.

This is why Fine Gael were saying that the Government needs to find around 5 billion in cuts and taxes in this budget.

dave-higgz

spadder wrote: »

Yeah, I Like Vincent's show myself, pity it's not on a bit earlier instead of the celebrity fluff they have on.

Dexter is not celebrity fluff IMO

spadder wrote: »

He gave Tom Kitt a lashing for waffling this week too. If this becomes his trade mark, I could see him become very popular.
Ireland needs a "Jeremy Paxman". The fact that he's on TV3 means their not fearful of loosing their license fees.

+1

Sully

I know some think that the opposition party should be getting behind the government during these times but lets be fair - why leave the crowd who got us into this mess away with it? The apology wouldn't go astray - an apology/admission should be given by FF.

FG/Labour have been shouting trying to get the government to listen. A lot of items were debated against by the opposition because they felt it was unfair. A lot of people and analysis have a similar view. People think that we should be getting behind FF to get us out of the mess but the simple fact is they cant if they simply don't agree.

For suggestions? No party is going to give away their reforms but FG have stated a few times that they will look into different avenues to improve things while Labour just shout and dodge questions. People hear the shouting and don't hear the dodging.

I agree that FG/Labour should be running away with it and that FG are going downhill in polls. I personally think its because FG are not shouting as loud as Labour who are hitting all the right points with the public and FG are not doing as much as they are. I don't think its anything to do with Enda tbh, though im sure it doesn't help that many people see him like he is and compare him to Labour whos leader is constantly shouting more then Kenny.

eoinbn

nesf wrote: »

The hole is more like 10-13K per worker per year unfortunately.

This is why Fine Gael were saying that the Government needs to find around 5 billion in cuts and taxes in this budget.

Sorry about the confusion, I wasn't very clear. By an extra €2666 each year I mean this year it's an extra €2666, next year it will be €5332 up to €13330 in 5 years.

I personally think its because FG are not shouting as loud as Labour

IMO it's because FG were the first ones to 'attack' the public sector. They have been after reform for years, the PS/Unions don't like the word and were the first to call for a pay freeze as well as job cuts. So were not only public sector workers leaving FF for Labour but they were probably also leaving FG for Labour.

P. Breathnach

Sully wrote: »

...I personally think its because FG are not shouting as loud as Labour who are hitting all the right points with the public and FG are not doing as much as they are. I don't think its anything to do with Enda tbh, though im sure it doesn't help that many people see him like he is and compare him to Labour whos leader is constantly shouting more then Kenny.

I think it has a great deal to do with Enda. In part it is because he is not nearly as good an orator as Eamon Gilmore. More significantly, I think, is that he does not convey the impression that he fully comprehends the situation: he seems to be thinking and operating on a small scale when the challenge is on a big scale. It's a bit like trying to compete in a golf major with pitch-and-putt clubs and skills, or playing at Wimbledon with a table tennis bat.

Sully

P. Breathnach wrote: »

I think it has a great deal to do with Enda. In part it is because he is not nearly as good an orator as Eamon Gilmore. More significantly, I think, is that he does not convey the impression that he fully comprehends the situation: he seems to be thinking and operating on a small scale when the challenge is on a big scale. It's a bit like trying to compete in a golf major with pitch-and-putt clubs and skills, or playing at Wimbledon with a table tennis bat.

Well that's my point.. you cant compare him to Eamon Gilmore because he doesnt present himself as well as he does. Dont agree on the second part, I think he knows full well how bad things are and will get.

nesf

eoinbn wrote: »

Sorry about the confusion, I wasn't very clear. By an extra €2666 each year I mean this year it's an extra €2666, next year it will be €5332 up to €13330 in 5 years.

The post you were quoting was wrong, that's what I was correcting. It's 20 billion in deficit this year not over the next 5 years.

John_C

nesf wrote: »

The post you were quoting was wrong, that's what I was correcting. It's 20 billion in deficit this year not over the next 5 years.

I think the argument is that we shouldn't close the deficit all in one year. We should get it down to 15 billion next year and 10 billion the year after that.

nesf

John_C wrote: »

I think the argument is that we shouldn't close the deficit all in one year. We should get it down to 15 billion next year and 10 billion the year after that.

This is true (taking 20 billion out of the economy this year would do bad things to it[/i]) but there's a false belief in the country about how big the actual deficit is from what I've been reading and hearing.

Deise Tom

I saw Joan Burton on RTE this evening and nearly died with fright. Who was the cleavage on show for. Was it to try and pull in a few extra male votes in the next election. Mutton dressed as lamb came to mind.

irish_bob

Deise Tom wrote: »

I saw Joan Burton on RTE this evening and nearly died with fright. Who was the cleavage on show for. Was it to try and pull in a few extra male votes in the next election. Mutton dressed as lamb came to mind.

joans busom has long been a feature on irish media and i for one rejoice , thier the best thing about the labour party , the only good thing

Deise Tom

irish_bob wrote: »

joans busom has long been a feature on irish media and i for one rejoice , thier the best thing about the labour party , the only good thing

Well if Joan's chest is the best thing about the labour party, it does not have much going for it.

irish_bob

Deise Tom wrote: »

Well if Joan's chest is the best thing about the labour party, it does not have much going for it.

touche