Is this Dodgy?

john_g83

Hello all, the GF is just about to buy a car from a Dealer on the Naas road. She has got the car loan from the bank, but instead of sending her a cheque they need the dealer to send an invoice including his VAT number to the bank, then she can sign the papers and the money is transferred. I guess this is to ensure people are actually getting cars with the loans. The dodgy bit is the dealer is just setting up (says he has been there for just 2 weeks) and can get a hold of a VAT number. The missus called him this morning and he suggested he uses the VAT number of the Garage next door so everything can go through today, otherwise there will be a delay. I don't really like the sound of this, what do you think.....

Bandara

john_g83 wrote: »

Hello all, the GF is just about to buy a car from a Dealer on the Naas road. She has got the car loan from the bank, but instead of sending her a cheque they need the dealer to send an invoice including his VAT number to the bank, then she can sign the papers and the money is transferred. I guess this is to ensure people are actually getting cars with the loans. The dodgy bit is the dealer is just setting up (says he has been there for just 2 weeks) and can get a hold of a VAT number. The missus called him this morning and he suggested he uses the VAT number of the Garage next door so everything can go through today, otherwise there will be a delay. I don't really like the sound of this, what do you think.....

if he's a registered business he should have a vat number.

its dodgy imo

EPM

Using the VAT number of a different business to pay for a car?!? Walk away from it. If the cank knew this I really think they would have a problem releasing the funds...

KTRIC

No VAT number then he can't trade.

john_g83

Thanks guys, this is what I was thinking too :mad:. She has put a deposit of 200 euros on the car. IS she within her rights to take that back and walk away? Surely she is???

Drummerboy08

Yes she is within her rights to take the deposit back.

What garage is it?

john_g83

Drummerboy08 wrote: »

Yes she is within her rights to take the deposit back.

What garage is it?

I'm not sure I want to bad mouth a garage if I dont know its 100% dodgy.

Drummerboy08

Good point. Lets put it another way.

Do they operate out of a dodgy looking building/portacabin??!

john_g83

Now that you mention it the offices are a Portacabin, and there are only a few cars there as he said they are still waiting on stock :rolleyes:

racso1975

is the car aon carzone and what type of car is it?

jhegarty

Drummerboy08 wrote: »

Yes she is within her rights to take the deposit back.

What garage is it?

Yes, and the threat of a phone call to the revenue should speed things up. Once she has it back call the revenue.

CamperMan

KTRIC wrote: »

No VAT number then he can't trade.

I thought you had to reach a certain turnover before registering for VAT, this dealer has only been there for 2 weeks so I doubt that he has reached that turnover limit yet so no need to register for VAT.

Drummerboy08

There are no "new" dealers on the Naas road. I work around the corner on the Nangor road.

Mainly dealers that change names every week, for purposes that i wont mention here..

I'd steer clear of them.

Bluefoam

Does the salesman have a patch on his eye?

john_g83

Drummerboy08 wrote: »

There are no "new" dealers on the Naas road. I work around the corner on the Nangor road.

Mainly dealers that change names every week, for purposes that i wont mention here..

I'd steer clear of them.

Hey I dropped you a PM just to keep the dealers name out of here. Do you know these guys. Thanks again to all for the help.

The latest update is that he just found the papers to apply for a VAT number Yesterday and he is working on it but once the form is submitted it could take 7-10 days

Big Wave

Avoid avoid avoid. Get your €200 back too - well within your rights to, as he won't sell you the car with a valid VAT number. He has more to hide than €200 is worth.

Drummerboy08

I've never heard of them. I dont even know where abouts they are. I'd be worried about the VAT issue.

If you feel any way wary, or unsure dont buy anything. There are plenty of cars on the market without risking a large sum of money, and in this case your credit history too.

voxpop

There is a threshold before you need to register for VAT (i think its about 75,000 turnover)
I dont think he should be charging VAT to you if he isnt registered for VAT.

Sounds like a bloke decided to make a bit of cash on the side by selling cars.

Del2005

john_g83 wrote: »

Hello all, the GF is just about to buy a car from a Dealer on the Naas road. She has got the car loan from the bank, but instead of sending her a cheque they need the dealer to send an invoice including his VAT number to the bank, then she can sign the papers and the money is transferred. I guess this is to ensure people are actually getting cars with the loans. The dodgy bit is the dealer is just setting up (says he has been there for just 2 weeks) and can get a hold of a VAT number. The missus called him this morning and he suggested he uses the VAT number of the Garage next door so everything can go through today, otherwise there will be a delay. I don't really like the sound of this, what do you think.....

The banks now do this for all car loans, they own the car like HP instead of you. I doubt the bank will go through with this deal as they will look into the dealer and the car. But as others have said walk away.

Pique

CamperMan wrote: »

I thought you had to reach a certain turnover before registering for VAT, this dealer has only been there for 2 weeks so I doubt that he has reached that turnover limit yet so no need to register for VAT.

voxpop wrote: »

There is a threshold before you need to register for VAT (i think its about 75,000 turnover)
I dont think he should be charging VAT to you if he isnt registered for VAT.

Sounds like a bloke decided to make a bit of cash on the side by selling cars.

Correct, you do not legally HAVE to register for VAT unless your turnover is (I think 200k (if selling goods)....however, you MAY if you wish register for VAT before that point. If, however he is charging VAT on the car and is not registered for VAT, then there's only one place it's going...his back pocket !

Plenty more cars out there anyway if you keep looking. However, if you really want this one...tell him the bank won't release the funds and the loan will expire before he gets the VAT number. If he's honest, he'll give you back the deposit and hope you come back in a weeks time or whatever. However a deposit is there to be surrendered and he is under no obligation to hand it back....so be warned.

milltown

Pique wrote: »

If, however he is charging VAT on the car and is not registered for VAT, then there's only one place it's going...his back pocket !

Not quite that simple. If he was registered for VAT he could have claimed back the VAT on his purchase of the car, or bought it ex-VAT from abroad, then charged it on the sale of the car, whence the taxman says "TYVM". If he's not VAT registered then he has still paid the VAT on buying the car and will just be passing that on to whoever he sells it to. Without a VAT number he can't buy anything ex-VAT and then just sell it on with an extra 22% (is that what it is these days?) on top to sweeten the deal for him.

lifer_sean

Is it an Irish car or a UK car ?

If it's a UK car then they need a TAN number to hold UK stock pre-registration, and they cannot get a TAN number without a VAT number. So if they don't have a VAT number and it's a UK (or any non-Irish registered) car then they are breaking the law.

They are quite entitled to sell cars without a VAT number if they have low enough turnover. Used to be 40k punts, now somewhat higher but not the 200k that another poster mentions. However it doesn't take many sales to cross this turnover threshold.

Using someone else's VAT number ... now that's serious. Falls into the "fraud" category ???

AFAIK the finance houses want VAT invoices for cars so that they can claim the VAT on the margin scheme, and thereby reduce the amount on their books that they have loaned, so that the effective interest rate is higher.

Bogger77

Del2005 wrote: »

The banks now do this for all car loans, they own the car like HP instead of you. I doubt the bank will go through with this deal as they will look into the dealer and the car. But as others have said walk away.

Not so, got MotorLoan from BOI, with cash paid into my account that day so I could go shopping for a car, i hadn't even got my eye on a car at that stage, but was thinking of going up North to buy one.
am existing customer with them for the last 20+ years (since i was a baby), maybe that makes a difference.

-Chris-

Walk away

trackcar

I thought VAT was only charged on new cars, did not think it applied to used cars previously registered in Ireland

Eoin

Del2005 wrote: »

The banks now do this for all car loans, they own the car like HP instead of you. I doubt the bank will go through with this deal as they will look into the dealer and the car. But as others have said walk away.

That must be a recent thing - it's normally just an unsecured personal loan.

jhegarty

eoin wrote: »

That must be a recent thing - it's normally just an unsecured personal loan.

That was the process when I got my first car 8 years ago.

It's just so they know you buy a car, and don't head down to paddy power with the money.

Kartale

Not Necessarily dodgy. New Dealer, someone has to be 1st customer.
Vat Number takes 2 wks if regd as Ltd Co. Dealer in question maybe sole trader and obviously has not gone down this route .
They prob didnt think they wud be dealing with financial institutions at all.
OP can still buy car with personal loan and should ,if car checks out

-Chris-

That's fine, maybe they're setting up, but "use the VAT number from a different company so we can get the paperwork progressed" is not legal and would make me suspicious of person saying it.

Del2005

Bogger77 wrote: »

Not so, got MotorLoan from BOI, with cash paid into my account that day so I could go shopping for a car, i hadn't even got my eye on a car at that stage, but was thinking of going up North to buy one.
am existing customer with them for the last 20+ years (since i was a baby), maybe that makes a difference.

Yes it's only new, since the credit crunch. Not too sure how many are doing it but most will.

eoin wrote: »

That must be a recent thing - it's normally just an unsecured personal loan.

Eoin it's so they have a slim chance of getting something back if you default on the loan. Before they had to chase you, now they take their car back and still chase you.

mikemac

There is a turnover before you need to register for VAT but realy OP, what's going on just is good enough.

Get the deposit back and there are established dealers out there you can deal with.
If they won't give the deposit back then a quick call the Revenue Commissioners may help here.
And if they've nothing to hide they've nothing to fear.....

Bogger77

Del2005 wrote: »

Yes it's only new, since the credit crunch. Not too sure how many are doing it but most will.




Eoin it's so they have a slim chance of getting something back if you default on the loan. Before they had to chase you, now they take their car back and still chase you.

Nope, I got the loan 3 weeks ago.
maybe if your credit rating is low, or you're unknown to them, but it basically was a case of "how much do you want" and "when do you want it in your acount", and the deal was done. BOI have zero claim to the car, they don't know it's registration, vin or even type of car.
Unless it's being organized as HP type loan,usually through the gargage, I don't know of any motor loans that are secured on the car.

Del2005

Bogger77 wrote: »

Nope, I got the loan 3 weeks ago.
maybe if your credit rating is low, or you're unknown to them, but it basically was a case of "how much do you want" and "when do you want it in your acount", and the deal was done. BOI have zero claim to the car, they don't know it's registration, vin or even type of car.
Unless it's being organized as HP type loan,usually through the gargage, I don't know of any motor loans that are secured on the car.

I'd just heard about it, off a BoI employee, but they must have been wrong. Thanks

bazz26

Given the current plight of the motor industry here presently and garages closing on a weekly basis, are we to believe that this place is only setting up shop in the last week or two and suggest using a neighbouring garage's VAT number?

Is this the guy you were dealing with by any chance, OP?

Eoin

jhegarty wrote: »

That was the process when I got my first car 8 years ago.

It's just so they know you buy a car, and don't head down to paddy power with the money.

But if it's an unsecured loan which most motor loans from BoI, AIB etc are, then it doesn't matter what you do with it. They have no stake in the car. HP deals are different.

stevenmu

This is a probably about 10 years ago now, but when I was looking for a car loan from AIB before they explained I could either get get a car loan product, in which case they would need all the details and own the car till it was paid off, or I could just get a personal loan and they didn't care what I used it for. IIRC a car loan was slightly easier to get approval for but the personal loan was less paperwork so went with that option.

Voodoomelon

The turnover threshold for VAT registration is €75,000. I'd walk away from this guy, he may be genuine and might have been desperate to get a first sale with the garage next door remark, but no car dealership should start trading without being properly setup first. Is he offering you a warranty? If he's operating out of portacabins, what are the chances he'll be there in 6 months?

Seth Brundle

Does the dealer have a website in some shape or form? if so then they have been trading long enough to register for VAT!
If the Op's G/F decides to continue buying this car then have it thoroughly examined by an independent mechanic! personally, I'd run a mile. Its a buyers market and there is absolutely no need to get into a situation where there is any messing.

_Kaiser_

Sounds suspect to me. As others have said, suggesting he use the neighbouring garage's VAT number (which incidentially would warn me off them too!) would be enough for me to walk away.

RE loans... I got a personal loan for mine, primarilly because it meant that I could buy whatever car I wanted (had it narrowed down to 2) and because it meant it wasn't tied to the car so no messing with outstanding finance when the time came to sell it.

I do know that the banks have tightened up a lot. The last (very straightforward) request I made of them, I thought they were gonna ask for my firstborn with all the questions and information they wanted!!