How to configure a zonal fare system for Dublin?

Victor

Quite a few people here advocate a zonal system for public transport fares in Dublin. What do people envisage that these zones would look like?

The two main types of zones that I have seen are (a) concentric - like the London Underground or in an underdeveloped form Luas (b) hexagonal (I don't know the formal name for this) - common in parts of Germany where one city's local transport butts is up against the next. I am sure there will be other types of zone.

The current system is mostly based on a stage fare system based on distance travel - it is taking the hexagonal system to the nth degree. While it gives the most exact fare, it is considered overly complicated.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Concentric_zone_model
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Multiple_nuclei_model
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sector_model
http://www.tfl.gov.uk/assets/downloads/tube-dlr-trams-and-train-travelcard-zones-map.pdf
http://www.luas.ie/network-map.php

Note: The multiple nuclei model and sectoral model are more relevant to town planning than transport.

godtabh

Its a bit old but section 2 looks at fare structure

antoinolachtnai

Going by the plan above, which is the obvious way of doing it, bringing in a zone system would result in the lowest fares being incresed by quite a bit. This would discourage the use of the bus for short journeys, and that would be bad for the overall ridership number. I think this would be an unwise move.

The other way of doing things is to have very small zones. You could have zones as small as an electoral division (in the city, an ED is about 25 streets). Of course, very few people would know where the zone boundaries are - you'd be depending on the ticketing system to automatically figure out the correct fare for you.

There is nothing inherently wrong with the stage system. The problem is that since one-person operation came in, it has been very loosely managed, operated and communicated. If you had the electronics and software to make it work, then it would be fine.

AlekSmart

Antoin,electronic and software are the least needed ingredients in a properly devised and operated Fare-Stage system.

All that is required is the provision of such Stage Related INFORMATION as is required for an Intending Passenger to ascertain the Stage at which they are boarding and an equal knowledge on the part of Staff as to the correct fare for the distance to be travelled.

Simple clear and easily understood stuff,most of it achievable through the use of Letraset Figures.

Get the basics correct and then we can move on to the electronic stuff... ?

antoinolachtnai

In principle, I agree with you completely re the electronicy stuff.

The issue in my mind is whether it is reasonable to expect drivers to know the route in enough detail to be able to determine fares. Fair enough, if someone says 'to Kiely's' when they board the 46A, the driver will know where that is relative to what is displayed on his ticket machine, but if they say 'Marlborough Road', he might not know. I don't know if it is reasonable to expect a person who has to look after a bus with 50 passengers on it to also develop an intimate knowledge of the side roads of any part of the city where he might be sent to drive a bus. However, I willl defer to your greater knowledge and experience on this point.

I mention the electronic thing mostly because this is part of the great netherworld of transport reform anyway.

murphaph

The real reson that the best solution (zonal fare structure) is not coming anythime soon is there in black and white in that report:

zonal fares traditionally require large subvention or substantial increases for large proportion of passengers,

That's it.

A large subvention is the accepted norm for any decent public transport network. That's why we won't get one in Ireland.

AlekSmart

Totally agree in principle.
The issue of Driver Familiarity can be addressed through Central and Depot Training and Familiarization.

Most drivers quickly develop a very good sense of the locations of Stages BUT a "sense" is NOT a desireable way of running a system such as a Fare-Stage.
What is wrong with simply clearly marking each stage accordingly, AS WAS THE ACCEPTED METHODOLOGY up to 2005.

Why were Stage Markings systematically removed ?
I can find no explanation anywhere in Dublin Bus substantial Timetable for this absence.

Your choice of Marlborough Road is indeed interesting from the prespective of the 11,44,48A routes as the ambiguity is substantial inbound...The ACTUAL stage 69 is the Shelter before Marlborough Road.
The preferred public option is for the one AFTER Marlborough Road.
Previously this was clearly marked as Merton Drive,then suddenly last year a new gaily coloured Bus Stop appears with .....Sandford Road....nothing more specific...and an invitation for trouble.

In all of this it needs to be recognized that a fare dispute over 45c can be the issue which will be taken all the way to the High Court on a point of principle and it baffles me as to why any modern Public Transport undertaking would wish to expose itself to such risk...truly baffling ??????

Red Alert

No cash fares, no zones, pay by the mile to a smartcard.

That, or just arbitrarily draw about four boxes around Dublin.

paulm17781

antoinolachtnai wrote: »

Going by the plan above, which is the obvious way of doing it, bringing in a zone system would result in the lowest fares being incresed by quite a bit. This would discourage the use of the bus for short journeys, and that would be bad for the overall ridership number. I think this would be an unwise move.

IMO it's a very good move. What are we talking short? Walking distances? I get quite shocked when I see people get on a bus and pay a cash fare to 3 or 4 stops. They slow down the bus and probably don't do themselves any health favours. If you mean it would discourage this, I would be happy to see the back of it.

Sadly I think I agree with Murphaph's point, subvention is what is needed and probably something we won't see. :mad:

antoinolachtnai

You make a morally excellent point. People should walk short distances rather than taking the bus. Unfortunately, running a bus company is a popularity contest as well as everything else. Eliminating these short trips will hit revenues. It will also hit people who have difficulty walking longer distances (such as people with young children). If the ticketing time was eliminated, the time to pick up/drop these customers would be very small.

The subvention is 10 times what it was in 1997. That document was written in 2000. The situation now as regards subvention is completely different. For the distances travelled by DB, the total revenues available to DB are high (higher than London, for instance). But that is another debate.

paulm17781

antoinolachtnai wrote: »

You make a morally excellent point. People should walk short distances rather than taking the bus. Unfortunately, running a bus company is a popularity contest as well as everything else. Eliminating these short trips will hit revenues. It will also hit people who have difficulty walking longer distances (such as people with young children). If the ticketing time was eliminated, the time to pick up/drop these customers would be very small.

While I agree, one has to wonder how bus times would be improved with less of these folk. In turn, would it make the bus more popular.

murphaph

When we talk of people taking a bus a stop or two, it should be remembered that in continental bus networks bus stops are generally much further apart too. That would be a good first step in eliminating the stop-start nature of buses in Dublin. But who loses 'their' bus stop....politics again!

antoinolachtnai

People boarding to make short trips in busier areas wouldn't really delay things much if there was a smartcard system, and the passenger didn't need to approach the driver (although the currently envisaged dublin bus system will require you to approach the driver to buy the least expensive ticket for short journeys)

Art(h)ur

Back to the main issue of zones: you have to trade off between simplicity and accuracy of fare to the distance actually travelled. The current system goes for the later but totally lacks the former, as a result. I would myself go for simplicity and the concentric model would be the best from this perspective. You could also consider a compromise, like the Dutch system: http://www.gvb.nl/english/travellers/tickets-and-fares/Pages/transport-zones.aspx They have all their country divided into hexagonal zones like these but the ticket price is based on the zone you select as central + all the adjacent ones.
The zones could be similar to the one in pdf: city centre up to the royal/grand canal, then all the area until m50, then until the city border and then suburban (for lines like 65, 70 or 84).
I wouldn't be afraid so much about the loss of short-trip passengers. First of all, the majority of these short trips would be within one zone so still the cheapest available fare would apply to them. The scale of the increase depends on the level of new fares selected but I don't think a rise from 1.15 to say 1.30 would be a serious issue for anybody. Second argument: less passengers + higher ticket prices = revenue unchanged.

Alternatives to zones would be charging for distance (measured by number of stops so in essence similar idea to number of stages but clearer) or for travel time. But implementing either of them would take literally ages if you look at how long it takes to develop integrated ticketing at the moment.

One thing that definitely should be included is allowing changing in single tickets (the likes of luas+bus are daily). At the moment only travel 90 does it but they're only in sets of 10. I would expect this would be an easy thing to introduce immediately - you would just have to show to the driver in the second bus the ticket you bought in the first one. The fare could be slightly higher then the single non-transferable ticket.

antoinolachtnai

I don't think you are right when you are saying that a small group would be effected. A large proportion of short trips are between two zones, crossing the canals. Anybody who lived within 2 miles of the canal and who wanted to go into town would be effected.

A twelve percent increase in public transport costs for an isolated group is pretty chunky. It would probably be more than that, because any decline in revenue would have a serious knock-on effect.

I am not saying that it is not worth the hassle to bring this in, but it woud be a good bit of hassle.

Art(h)ur

Well, again this would depend on the new fares selected. In an extreme example the fare levels could be exactly the same as now: 1.15 within the centre (canals), 1.60 up to m50, 1.80 up to the border and 2.20 outside the city. Then a journey from 2 miles off the canal to the city centre would cost you still 1.60 - no difference in fare whatsoever. But probably some increase would be necessary due to revenue reasons.

antoinolachtnai wrote: »

The other way of doing things is to have very small zones. You could have zones as small as an electoral division (in the city, an ED is about 25 streets).

Ironically, we already have a zonal system in Dublin but the zones are called stages: they're defined as all the distance between stops A and B and they're identical for all the lines going through A and B. And - especially in the centre - they are very small indeed. So practically they are zones. Two main problems with it:
- zones/stages are so small that the whole city is chopped into hundreds (does anybody know the exact figure? Do DB know it?!) of small pieces - too complicated for most users
- the location of the zones/stages is being constantly hidden from the travelling public! Is there a map of Dublin showing all the zones? Has there ever been one??? The basic information like 'College Green stop is in stage/zone X' is NOT available anywhere (neither at the stop nor on a website nor on a bus) - you have to figure it out yourself by looking at the stage/zone border list and asking yourself 'Am I now in between this and that place?' I would really like to know the name of the person who invented the extremely detailed division of Dublin into loads of stages/zones but didn't care to inform the passengers about its details.

Cool Mo D

Perhaps a system based on the current fares?
4 Zones - inside the canal ring, North Dublin, South Dublin, and Wicklow/Meath/Kildare as the 4th.
1.15 for any journey wholly inside the canals, 1.60 for a journey wholly inside any one other zone, 2 euro for 2 zones (the most common trip, the simplest fare), and 2.50 for a 3+ zone travel 90 ticket allowing transfers.

Ste.phen

Cool Mo D wrote: »

Perhaps a system based on the current fares?
4 Zones - inside the canal ring, North Dublin, South Dublin, and Wicklow/Meath/Kildare as the 4th.
1.15 for any journey wholly inside the canals, 1.60 for a journey wholly inside any one other zone, 2 euro for 2 zones (the most common trip, the simplest fare), and 2.50 for a 3+ zone travel 90 ticket allowing transfers.

Except that the current fare structure makes it 1.70 for the 90 minute, any-distance fare so you're talking massive increases in most fares.

My own thoughts on it were that as far as buses were concerned, at least, there should be 1 euro kids fare, 1.50 standard fare and 2.00 long/transfer fare, to simplify everything. With minor discounts on the above for smart card usage

Cool Mo D

Ste.phen wrote: »

Except that the current fare structure makes it 1.70 for the 90 minute, any-distance fare so you're talking massive increases in most fares.

My own thoughts on it were that as far as buses were concerned, at least, there should be 1 euro kids fare, 1.50 standard fare and 2.00 long/transfer fare, to simplify everything. With minor discounts on the above for smart card usage

1.70 if you pay for 10 trips in advance - I would keep that the same. 2.50 would be a walk on fare, with no discount for bulk buying in advance. My fares were based on trying to achieve similar average fares to what is there now.

Rawr

Cool Mo D wrote: »

Perhaps a system based on the current fares?
4 Zones - inside the canal ring, North Dublin, South Dublin, and Wicklow/Meath/Kildare as the 4th.
1.15 for any journey wholly inside the canals, 1.60 for a journey wholly inside any one other zone, 2 euro for 2 zones (the most common trip, the simplest fare), and 2.50 for a 3+ zone travel 90 ticket allowing transfers.

Not a bad idea.
Although I would suggest larger zones and a single ticket which is good for free-transfer within the zone for a time-period (1 hour or 90 mins).

For example:
Dublin Zone: Everything inside the M50 and as far south as Dun Laoghaire
North Suburb: The Airport, north to Lusk and North-West to Ashbourne
West Suburb: Liffey Valley, and West to Maynooth (maybe Kilcock), northwest to Dunboyne, and perhaps south to Blessington.
South Suburb: From Killiney down to Bray or Greystones and including any routes in the Dublin mountains.