An Audi I actually like!

pburns

Not known as a fan of Audis but I see they are heavily promoting the A4 Quattro in this country (a bit strange given the recession and our love-in with poverty spec models). I am a bit of a convert to AWD in road cars and this looks like a hell of a motor:

http://www.carzone.ie/new-cars/AUDI/A4/2.0-TDI-170BHP-QUATTRO-SPORT/767168820081201/

Audichris - is there any interest in Quattros amongst customers?

Biro

Expensive though, even more so if you compare it to the Legacy, which has just 20bhp less.

-Chris-

quattro is one of Audi's USPs and so they're pushing it. They're advertising an A4 with quattro for under €40k at the moment. AFAIK Audi are the only manufacturer who offer 4wd across their entire product range and they're fairly proud of that.

As for the level of customer interest, traditionally there's limited interest in quattro until you get into high-spec vehicles. quattro normally costs €3-4k and the opportunity cost is normally too much for most customers - they'd prefer leather and upgraded alloys. The guys who are putting together a high-spec car (i.e. there is no opportunity cost) quite often put in quattro.

That being said, the active promotion of quattro, and the way the recent bad weather has reminded people how important traction and handling are, has increased the number of quattro enquiries.

I love quattro, and I think it's definitely something I'd choose for my own Audi if I had the money, but just like the customers I mentioned, I wouldn't choose it over leather/bluetooth/B&O etc.

Biro

AudiChris wrote: »

quattro is one of Audi's USPs and so they're pushing it. They're advertising an A4 with quattro for under €40k at the moment. AFAIK Audi are the only manufacturer who offer 4wd across their entire product range and they're fairly proud of that.

As for the level of customer interest, traditionally there's limited interest in quattro until you get into high-spec vehicles. quattro normally costs €3-4k and the opportunity cost is normally too much for most customers - they'd prefer leather and upgraded alloys. The guys who are putting together a high-spec car (i.e. there is no opportunity cost) quite often put in quattro.

That being said, the active promotion of quattro, and the way the recent bad weather has reminded people how important traction and handling are, has increased the number of quattro enquiries.

I love quattro, and I think it's definitely something I'd choose for my own Audi if I had the money, but just like the customers I mentioned, I wouldn't choose it over leather/bluetooth/B&O etc.

I'd be the opposite. It's all about the engine/chassis/drivetrain with me. Couldn't give a crap about what material the seats are covered in, or any other extras. If they're there then that's nice, if not then I'm not paying through the nose for them!

tossy

There is also a certain snob status attached to quattro left over form the celtic tiger and early celtic tiger times,peopl would brag about their 130 brake quattro A4 with bog standard seats and steel wheels,and quattro badges im sure are a massive seller on ebay!

Im all for quattro but on the right engine,4wd saps about 30-40 bhp extra from a cars performance in real terms i.e a 2wd 170 bhp A4 would be around 140 at the wheels,a 4wd 170 a4 would be lucky to break 100bhp at the wheels - so the car would want to be the business end of 200 bhp for it to be attractive.

-Chris-

I always felt a quattro car was quicker than a non quattro car with the same engine/transmission - while quattro adds weight, it completely elimates wheelspin and means that if you're really giving it socks, whatever power you are generating, it's not being wasted by wheelspin.

I wouldn't think there's a snob value to quattro - in my experience, the people who value quattro and pay for it, aren't doing it to show off. They're doing it because they value the effect it has on their handling and traction.

DaMonk

dat sounds like manure to be honest, only getting 100 at the wheels?? fair enough there'll be losses but losing over 40% of the power is a bit much I'd think. or am I wrong?

mondeo

Biro wrote: »

I'd be the opposite. It's all about the engine/chassis/drivetrain with me. Couldn't give a crap about what material the seats are covered in, or any other extras. If they're there then that's nice, if not then I'm not paying through the nose for them!

I agree, I could not give a sh!te about fancy interior extras..But Knowing I had a good handling 4WD system under my ass makes me much happier:D

tossy

DaMonk wrote: »

dat sounds like manure to be honest, only getting 100 at the wheels?? fair enough there'll be losses but losing over 40% of the power is a bit much I'd think. or am I wrong?

Ok maybe my figures were a little rash but i would be very surprised if a quattro 170 TDI made 115 at the wheels.

A quattro may feel quicker than a similar 2wd car and will most certainly beat one off the line but side by side while rolling the quattro will fall behind,its simple physics heavier and more drive train loses.

Dont get me wrong im all for quattro and appreciate the benefit of of 4wd drive but due to the nature of the beast if you don't want to lose out on performance you need to up the ante power wise.If you just want 4wd for towing and poor weather driving then a 130 or 170 quattro is the car for the job.

peasant

Permanent 4WD (Syncro in my case) makes a big difference in the driving characteristics in good weather as well, it's not just for s(h)now

Permanent 4WD even turns my hopelessly underpowered and top heavy bus into something of a sports car, it really is a revelation

pburns

tossy wrote: »

There is also a certain snob status attached to quattro left over form the celtic tiger and early celtic tiger times,peopl would brag about their 130 brake quattro A4 with bog standard seats and steel wheels,and quattro badges im sure are a massive seller on ebay!

Im all for quattro but on the right engine,4wd saps about 30-40 bhp extra from a cars performance in real terms i.e a 2wd 170 bhp A4 would be around 140 at the wheels,a 4wd 170 a4 would be lucky to break 100bhp at the wheels - so the car would want to be the business end of 200 bhp for it to be attractive.

Nah, that's cock from start to finish I'm afraid...

Firstly, the vast majority of non-petrolheads won't give two hoops about the 'snob' value attached to the Quattro name. If you want to impress people spend your money on leather seats etc. I'd say it's the very discerning Audi-buyer who will go for Quattro. In so doing they are taking advantage of a real Audi USP so good on 'em. To me a FWD A4 is no better than your common-or-garden Jetta/Passat but with a swankier badge and less family-man styling.

As for AWD lobbing off the eqivilant of 30 bhp...don't think so. My 150bhp Legacy feels WAY quicker than a 120bhp car I had and quicker than a similarly powered 159 (which is disappointingly crap BTW - a lot of it down to the porkieness of the chassis AFAIK). The Scooby gives a real shove in the back.

TBH I'd only consider Quattro if the next Legacy turned out to be a dogs dinner or if the exchange rate or financial collapse delayed imports to Ireland/UK.

And like Biro said, they're bloody expensive, dunno if my financial status will remain healthy in the long term - who does these days?

Cyrus

pburns wrote: »

Nah, that's cock from start to finish I'm afraid...

Firstly, the vast majority of non-petrolheads won't give two hoops about the 'snob' value attached to the Quattro name. If you want to impress people spend your money on leather seats etc. I'd say it's the very discerning Audi-buyer who will go for Quattro. In so doing they are taking advantage of a real Audi USP so good on 'em. To me a FWD A4 is no better than your common-or-garden Jetta/Passat but with a swankier badge and less family-man styling.

As for AWD lobbing off the eqivilant of 30 bhp...don't think so. My 150bhp Legacy feels WAY quicker than a 120bhp car I had and quicker than a similarly powered 159 (which is disappointingly crap BTW - a lot of it down to the porkieness of the chassis AFAIK). The Scooby gives a real shove in the back.

TBH I'd only consider Quattro if the next Legacy turned out to be a dogs dinner or if the exchange rate or financial collapse delayed imports to Ireland/UK.

And like Biro said, they're bloody expensive, dunno if my financial status will remain healthy in the long term - who does these days?

Is your legacy a turbo diesel? Was the 120bhp car petrol?

AWD suffers much greater transmission loss that F or Rwd, its not tossy's opinion but a simple fact. the actual percentage varies from model to model however.

eljono

AudiChris wrote: »

quattro is one of Audi's USPs and so they're pushing it. They're advertising an A4 with quattro for under €40k at the moment. AFAIK Audi are the only manufacturer who offer 4wd across their entire product range and they're fairly proud of that.

Are all Subarus not 4wd?

pburns

Cyrus wrote: »

Is your legacy a turbo diesel? Was the 120bhp car petrol?

AWD suffers much greater transmission loss that F or Rwd, its not tossy's opinion but a simple fact. the actual percentage varies from model to model however.

I know it's fact - there's a reason why most race cars are RWD. But percentages are way out IMO. Anyway I think the Legacy claws some of it back with a pretty low kerb weight for that class of car. RWD would be a reasonable substitute, I just wouldn't like to go back to FWD.

Biro

eljono wrote: »

Are all Subarus not 4wd?

I think there are 2WD versions, but all have 4WD somewhere in the range so far as I know.

Biro

pburns wrote: »

I know it's fact - there's a reason why most race cars are RWD. But percentages are way out IMO. Anyway I think the Legacy claws some of it back with a pretty low kerb weight for that class of car. RWD would be a reasonable substitute, I just wouldn't like to go back to FWD.

Race cars aren't RWD because of the drivetrain loss. RWD cars handle better in the right conditions than 4WD. It takes a lot of technology to make a 4WD car quicker around a dry track than a RWD, and the only way it does that is make the car RWD some of the time! See Nissan Skyline from the R33 model upwards for more details!!

Matt Simis

Biro wrote: »

Race cars aren't [edited assume you meant AWD] AWD because of the drivetrain loss. RWD cars handle better in the right conditions than 4WD. It takes a lot of technology to make a 4WD car quicker around a dry track than a RWD, and the only way it does that is make the car RWD some of the time! See Nissan Skyline from the R33 model upwards for more details!!

True, but Audi have been spending a long, long time overcoming this issue. There is also the matter that even amongst the motoring enthusiasts there is a misunderstanding on what Quattro is vs 4WD (or 4x4 SUVs etc).

-Haldex cars (Golfs, TTs, Tiguan etc) are FWD till ESP detects traction loss at rear. These are somewhat looked down on in Audi circles, there arent Torsen systems.
-Standard (ie permanent Torsen AWD) Quattro (4th gen version these days) can send 60% of the torque to the rear, already giving some rear bias.
-RS4 B7 Quattros and any Quattro upgraded with an aftermarket Stasis Center Diff send a whopping 80% torque to the rear
-The ultimate incarnation though is on the new B8 S4 (thats an Audi to love Pburns, not some vanilla A4!) with its optional Sports Differential, a Torque Vectoring system. Its easiest to imagine it as ESP in reverse, it can spin either of the rear wheels upto 10% faster than the input speed. Where ESP cuts power to stop cars rotating, Torque Vectoring promotes rotation via faster real wheels. As a by the way the engine in the new S4 is 6" further back too to get a 55-45 weight balance, extremely impressive considering the AWD system in there too.

What Im getting at is that Quattro isnt a dumb 4x4 system, its far more impressive and continiously evolves. As a by-the-way, Quattro saps about 25% (not static BHP figures, loss is measured in %) power, however you have to account for the fact that the faster your car the more power you would loose on a 2WD to friction loss. You are looking at a % loss regardless from any drivetrain as well as friction. Quattro just takes it away from the get go (not burning tyres pointlessly) and gives you better control and acceleration.

Rest assured, powerslides and drifting (and the like) are possible with the new Torque Vectoring as well as the 80% rear bias versions.

tossy

I should have made it clear that the power i was quoting as being lost through 4wd/Awd was a percentage figure,i presumed people would know this,obviously a 500 BHP Evo/R32 golf/RS4/ etc is going to lose alot more than 30bhp through the 4wD.

-Chris-

eljono wrote: »

Are all Subarus not 4wd?

You're missing the Justy...

It might be in the way they word it, but Audi's point is that you can have a 3-door hatch, an executive saloon, a sports coupe, a luxobarge or an SUV, all from the same manufacturer, all available with the quattro system.
They're proud of their sporting transmission system and they offer it in every vehicle they produce.

Matt Simis wrote: »

True, but Audi have been spending a long, long time overcoming this issue. There is also the matter that even amongst the motoring enthusiasts there is a misunderstanding on what Quattro is vs 4WD (or 4x4 SUVs etc).

-Haldex cars (Golfs, TTs, Tiguan etc) are FWD till ESP detects traction loss at rear. These are somewhat looked down on in Audi circles, there arent Torsen systems.
-Standard (ie permanent Torsen AWD) Quattro (4th gen version these days) can send 60% of the torque to the rear, already giving some rear bias.
-RS4 B7 Quattros and any Quattro upgraded with an aftermarket Stasis Center Diff send a whopping 80% torque to the rear
-The ultimate incarnation though is on the new B8 S4 (thats an Audi to love Pburns, not some vanilla A4!) with its optional Sports Differential, a Torque Vectoring system. Its easiest to imagine it as ESP in reverse, it can spin either of the rear wheels upto 10% faster than the input speed. Where ESP cuts power to stop cars rotating, Torque Vectoring promotes rotation via faster real wheels. As a by the way the engine in the new S4 is 6" further back too to get a 55-45 weight balance, extremely impressive considering the AWD system in there too.

What Im getting at is that Quattro isnt a dumb 4x4 system, its far more impressive and continiously evolves. As a by-the-way, Quattro saps about 25% (not static BHP figures, loss is measured in %) power, however you have to account for the fact that the faster your car the more power you would loose on a 2WD to friction loss. You are looking at a % loss regardless from any drivetrain as well as friction. Quattro just takes it away from the get go (not burning tyres pointlessly) and gives you better control and acceleration.

Rest assured, powerslides and drifting (and the like) are possible with the new Torque Vectoring as well as the 80% rear bias versions.

Yeah, what he said!! :D:cool:

TomMc

AudiChris wrote: »

You're missing the Justy...

It might be in the way they word it, but Audi's point is that you can have a 3-door hatch, an executive saloon, a sports coupe, a luxobarge or an SUV, all from the same manufacturer, all available with the quattro system.
They're proud of their sporting transmission system and they offer it in every vehicle they produce.

Some Justy's had 4wd although the new model is FWD.

The German manufacturers love to milk everything to the last or maybe it is just the people who represent them.

Offering 4wd/awd as an expensive option is a bit lame in my book. Especially when it is standard equipment and a defining characteristic of nearly all Subaru's.

Matt Simis

TomMc wrote: »

Some Justy's had 4wd although the new model is FWD.

The German manufacturers love to milk everything to the last or maybe it is just the people who represent them.

Offering 4wd/awd as an expensive option is a bit lame in my book. Especially when it is standard equipment and a defining characteristic of nearly all Subaru's.

Thats a rather glib interpretation of the systems on offer from the "Germans". While I applaud having some form of AWD as a low cost or free option on all cars, my above post was perhaps too subtle, the Quattro system (baring Haldex in some Quattro cars) is not the same as BMW XDrive, Merc 4Matic or Subaru's AWD systems.

Generally Audi Quattros and VW 4Motions (baring all Haldex cars) are Torque Sensing (Torsen) and speed sensing.
Other marques systems rely on Haldex (or similar) electronic systems.

Torsen is almost instant shift of torque with a 1% Torque difference accuracy (ie it detects even very minimal or start of slippages)
Haldex types are just Speed Sensing, which by design can only detect a slippage after it has occured.. it can only minimise slip, its effectively a re-active system.

Haldex systems are good for small, light urban vehicles as they minimise tyre wear and fuel consumption. However its quite obvious they do not perform to the same standard to Quattro. As Audichis points out, Quattro is a USP for Audi, they have to make it market leading. I also dont expect them to put market leading tech in every car, not only does it add expense and reduce fuel economy, some people simply do not need it.

unkel

Thanks for the links, Matt Simis. That's a lot of power and torque for a 3l V6!

Matt Simis wrote: »

send a whopping 80% torque to the rear

Nearly there so

peasant

electronics, paah ...

with it's viscous coupling you can transform a Syncro Golf into a 100 % RWD vehicle by simply taking the front driveshafts out

TomMc

MS, you have to admit though that Audi badging all their models under the "quattro" label (albeit a trademark), on various different technologies, is a cynical marketing exercise. IMO, If they take real pride in the higher-end and more sophisticated engineering, they shouldn't use the term in the generic sense. Allowing of course for evolutions or developments of same over time.

I guess BMW started it with M-Spec suspension, this that and the other on non M-powered cars, Audi milking S-Line now in a similar way, AMG to a lesser degree on Mercs.

Matt Simis

TomMc wrote: »

MS, you have to admit though that Audi badging all their models under the "quattro" label (albeit a trademark), on various different technologies, is a cynical marketing exercise. IMO, If they take real pride in the higher-end and more sophisticated engineering, they shouldn't use the term in the generic sense. Allowing of course for evolutions or developments of same over time.

I guess BMW started it with M-Spec suspension, this that and the other on non M-powered cars, Audi milking S-Line now in a similar way, AMG to a lesser degree on Mercs.

Actually yeah, I agree on their Quattro branding which doesnt differentiate Haldex from real Torsen Quattro. S-Line badging is just silly, but thats the consumers fault, they just pander to it!

VeVeX

Matt Simis wrote: »

-Haldex cars (Golfs, TTs, Tiguan etc) are FWD till ESP detects traction loss at rear. These are somewhat looked down on in Audi circles, there arent Torsen systems.

Generally Audi Quattros and VW 4Motions (baring all Haldex cars) are Torque Sensing (Torsen) and speed sensing.
Other marques systems rely on Haldex (or similar) electronic systems.

The Haldex system will put power to the rear wheels in the event of a slip to either front wheel. This is done from inputs through the ABS sensors not the ESP system. Some of the early Gen1 Haldex cars were not equiped with ESP. It can take as little as 1/7th of a rotion from detection to have power to the rear. Its not just a slip re-active system it also monitors torque from sensors (accelerator & crank) and can determine an impending loss of traction to divert power to the rear. This can be done more aggressively with the uprated controller.

I'd prefare the Haldex Veyron over the B8 S4 running the torsen system any day

btw Quattro is spelt quattro unless your referring to the Audi Quattro

tossy

Matt Simis wrote: »

Haldex systems are good for small, light urban vehicles as they minimise tyre wear and fuel consumption.

I wish,i dont know how the tyre were on the phaeton is like but my rears ware faster than the fronts.

I won't mention fuel consumption to a turf burner driver

eljono

AudiChris wrote: »

You're missing the Justy...

Nope, I've definitely seen a 4wd Justy!

Matt Simis

VeVeX wrote: »

The Haldex system will put power to the rear wheels in the event of a slip to either front wheel. This is done from inputs through the ABS sensors not the ESP system. Some of the early Gen1 Haldex cars were not equiped with ESP. It can take as little as 1/7th of a rotion from detection to have power to the rear. Its not just a slip re-active system it also monitors torque from sensors (accelerator & crank) and can determine an impending loss of traction to divert power to the rear. This can be done more aggressively with the uprated controller.

I'd prefare the Haldex Veyron over the B8 S4 running the torsen system any day

So says the man with the Haldex S3! Though Im hardly unbiased either. Maybe Im too harsh on the electronic systems, they have come a long way as you say its used in the Veyron. Though I think its fair to say the Veyron's part is no doubt custom built and not comparable to mere mortals cars, the Veyron's systems is more a proof of concept.

1/7th a Rotation is still a lot slower than a Torsen system though, the fact remains than a Haldex car is taking some time to detect the slippage while a (lower case q!) quattro IV car has not only an (virtually) instantaneous Torsen drive it also (these days) will use the ESP and ABS similar to a Haldex system. The Vector quattro system in the B8 seems to be the best case fusion of electronic sensors with Torsen gears; ESP, ABS, Torsen, "Reverse-ESP".

What I do know is that currently a traditional Haldex system is not usable on high Torque (above 350ft/lbs) cars anyway, regardless of its progress and improvements. Its not too far fetched however to say in 5years or so Torsen may be shown the door. Its more expensive and not tunable to the degree a computer system is, but right now, its the best we have.

tossy wrote: »

I wish,i dont know how the tyre were on the phaeton is like but my rears ware faster than the fronts.
I won't mention fuel consumption to a turf burner driver

Are you using a Haldex type or permanent AWD car though? The Phaeton is permanent torsen, like the S4, Touareg etc. I would expect mine to wear more on the front for various reasons.

VeVeX

Matt Simis wrote: »

So says the man with the Haldex S3!

Ha Ha