Judo vs Ju-Jitso

Cherry Blossom

Hi, I'm looking into various martial arts locally. It's the self defense aspect of it I'm interested in. Judo, Ju-Jitso and Karate are available locally and I've sort of ruled out karate. So i'm looking for advice and opinions really as to whether to go to Judo or Ju-Jitso, I will probably take a few classes of both and then decide but would be interested to hear other peoples views? I started kick-boxing 2 months ago which is great as a sport but would like to do something more self-defence based with it. Ta!

polishpaddy

Ju-JitsU
You can use it the minute you leave the gym.It's practical and employs common sense.

arybvtcw0eolkf

Visit both clubs and make your decision based on that and not what some faceless internet warrior like my good self would advise (Judo).

cowzerp

Personally from a defense point of view, grappling would not be high up on my list-great to know to prevent them grappling you but when in a grappling situation outside a nightclub for example you cant run or stop people sticking boots into you, at least with your kick boxing you can hurt them and run if necessary..

I do sub wrestling and BJJ so know how good they are for MMA etc but on the street i'd only use it if they took me down or tried. then it would be back to the safety of my feet asap.

Bjj would be the more complete submission sport over judo but the judo throws are good, again i cant imagine throwing people in a street scenario either though!

arybvtcw0eolkf

Just to expand on what Paul has mentioned re. Judo and throws on the street.

The vast majority of people will practive JJ or Judo as a sport with hardly ever a thought given to how effective either is on the street.

If self defence is the OP's soul aim I'd suggest he gets in touch with the combative guys here and have a chat about their different styles.

What do you need on the street?.. A decent punch, a swift kick in the balls or a headbutt and leg it!... As a practiced kickboxer and (half) practiced Judoka thats exactly what I'd be looking at doing as self defence on the street, all the other stuff I'd save for the Dojo!.

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Cherry Blossom

Mairt wrote: »

Visit both clubs and make your decision based on that and not what some faceless internet warrior like my good self would advise (Judo).

Yep, doing that today!

Mairt wrote: »

If self defence is the OP's soul aim I'd suggest he gets in touch with the combative guys here and have a chat about their different styles.

Something to keep me busy and motivate me to stay off the ciggies mainly, OP is 'she' btw

cowzerp wrote: »

Personally from a defense point of view, grappling would not be high up on my list-great to know to prevent them grappling you but when in a grappling situation outside a nightclub for example you cant run or stop people sticking boots into you, at least with your kick boxing you can hurt them and run if necessary..

Girls always seem to end up on the floor though for some reason :rolleyes: and probably less likely than guys to get people joining in sticking boots in them?

dlofnep

I'd prefer judo from a self defense point of view.. Being able to bounce someone off the ground is useful in self defense..

I think Paul would opt for striking, as it's his forte - so he naturally feels more comfortable with it. Alot of people on here are only going to tell you what they would prefer from their perspective tbh.

Nothingcompares

I'm glad to hear you're going to try both classes AJ. "Ju-jitso" isn't a very specific term in martial arts and can refer to a great range of different activities. Judo on the other hand, tends to be very similar from club to club from country to country.

Some things I'd consider if I was making the decision

Atmosphere of club - well mannered friendly people who are welcoming
Type of training - is it safe but functional, is there time spent both on technique and drilling as well as free practice and sparring
Location of club - is the club accessible to you so you can train 2/3 times a week
Facilities- is the club nice and clean with changing facilities

I train in Judo myself as a disclaimer and a type of Jiujitsu called Brazilian jiujitsu which is quite similar to judo but with more emphasis on ground fighting where the judo excels at stand up wrestling. The classical jujutsus and traditional styles of jujutsu are much different and wouldn't interest me.

cowzerp

dlofnep wrote: »

I'd prefer judo from a self defense point of view.. Being able to bounce someone off the ground is useful in self defense..

I think Paul would opt for striking, as it's his forte - so he naturally feels more comfortable with it. Alot of people on here are only going to tell you what they would prefer from their perspective tbh.

Although i understand what your saying, i train as much grappling as striking and love it, i've been in and witnessed lots of street altercations in my younger days and i can genuinely say grappling would of got me hurt in most of them, your taking the option of retreat out with grappling, im not saying she should not learn it but it needs to be only if someone grapples her, she needs to be able to hit hard and run..

im not thinking of what i like, its what will get you saved in a street fight situation..

dlofnep

Oh I know you have Paul, it's just that boxing will always be your go-to. Judo has served me well on two occasions in getting me out of a scuffle. It certainly does work, is practical and functional.

Mikel

Either will only benefit you if you do them consistently over a period of time, and you'll only keep it up if you enjoy the atmosphere/instruction/ethos or whatever of the club.
No point in deciding one is more 'useful' and then jacking it in

wetdogsmell

the best sport for self defence is clay pidgeon shooting

Dave147

polishpaddy wrote: »

Ju-JitsU
You can use it the minute you leave the gym.It's practical and employs common sense.

Jiu Jitsu :P

samhail

I have trained in Judo for a number of years now and i would always loved to have picked up ju jitsu.

I would describe Judo as a "safer" version of JuJitsu, in that all the wrist locks and the more dangerous techniques were taken out of JuJitsu and a number of other martial arts at the time Judo was being created.
Judo is more of a Sport than a martial art.

Unpossible

Which form of JuJitsu are you thinking of joining OP ?

Cherry Blossom

Ok, so I went along to a Judo session on Saturday which lasted and hour and a half and I thoroughly enjoyed it. Dropped into the community center on the way for a nosey at the ju-jitsu notice board and recognise every single face on there as a local bouncer/doorman. They don't seem to have much in the way of complete newcomers to martial arts and I'd be a bit aprehensive about joining in with a load of people whose occupations are based on it :eek:.

The big thing really is the fact that I could barely move after my kick-boxing session on Thursday night after my instructor went ott with stretches and couldn't move at all yesterday (Sunday) more due to Thursdays activity than Saturdays probably but jiu-jitsu is on either Tuesdays (which clashes with kick-boxing) or Wednesdays (In which case I'd be training Tue, Wed, Thur nites) tbh I think 3 nites in a row would probably kill me at this stage

So the decision has sort of been made for me in a way, I have a feeling this jiu-jitsu idea isn't going away though and I will probably come back to it after I've been going to kick-boxing and Judo a bit longer and my fitness level improves:rolleyes:

Thanks everyone all the same for your extremely conflicting views :pac:

Unpossible wrote: »

Which form of JuJitsu are you thinking of joining OP ?

The one locally is Jikishin Jiu Jitsu

Dave147 wrote: »

Jiu Jitsu :P

Ok so which is it? I've seen different clubs spell it differently not just the general public so I'm assuming either both are acceptable or they are in two different languages?

yomchi

wetdogsmell wrote: »

the best sport for self defence is clay pidgeon shooting

Any more trolling and and bannings will ensue.

wetdogsmell

Jon wrote: »

Any more trolling and and bannings will ensue.

whats trolling? is it something to do with the lord of the rings

jim o doom

faceless internet warrior time! Yeah - In my own generally faulty opine; I reckon some sort of Kenpo, if there are clubs anywhere in your area would be what yer looking for if you are thinking about a martial art based purely on self defense in the street.

Kenpo is a very very street oriented martial art - that's all I can say about it really..

If I was going to change to a grappling art I'd be more interested in Jiu Jitsu as I know several people who do it and love it!

cowzerp

jim o doom wrote: »

Kenpo is a very very street oriented martial art - that's all I can say about it really..

Just because its not good for competition does not make it good for the street, i done it for about 6 months and it was the biggest waste of time ever, learned more in 1 weeks Boxing or MMA.

Nothingcompares

Jon wrote: »

Any more trolling and and bannings will ensue.

in fairness he makes a legitimate point. Unarmed self-defence is a fairly silly position to prepare yourself for. Weaponry and sprinting is the best self defence . along with awareness.

Cherry Blossom

Ok, on another note :rolleyes: Had a pretty big falling out with a BOB last Tuesday night at kick-boxing, recovered just in time for Thursday's kickboxing which included introduction to backward kicks (whatever their proper name is :P) and unreal amounts of leg stretching, my back and stomach were killing me and as I jumped up on a horse on Friday I noticed a shooting pain in the front of my thighs. Riding lesson seemed to loosen me out a bit, felt okish and headed to the judo lesson Saturday lunchtime which lasted an hour and a half, felt fine at the time.
Couldn't move at all on Sunday though All down my left hand side was in pure agony and could barely lift my legs at all, standing up and sitting down proved particularly painful! I've been thrown off a horse into a brick wall and trampled in my time but this actually felt much, worse:mad:.

Monday morning I could still only go down one stair at a time :pac: By now I've recovered enough that I'm pretty confident I will be heading back to kickboxing tomorrow(Tue) night. Will it get easier though? Is it just because I had a tough week at kickboxing last week combined with the new Judo class or am I just trying to do too much?

arybvtcw0eolkf

adrenalinjunkie wrote: »

Monday morning I could still only go down one stair at a time :pac: By now I've recovered enough that I'm pretty confident I will be heading back to kickboxing tomorrow(Tue) night. Will it get easier though? Is it just because I had a tough week at kickboxing last week combined with the new Judo class or am I just trying to do too much?

Two things.

First off it sounds to me like your carrying an injury, so don't train for a few days.

Second, to me it would appear as though your doing way too much for a novice.

Both combined, and throw in inadequate rest and your probably looking at a total breakdown in your training for the long term.

Rest the inuried leg, don't train Judo or KB (and leave the horse alone too) for a week. If the injury doesn't show a marked imporvement get some medical advice.

Boston

I find the immediate jump to "self defence" odd. I must be one of the few people to take up martial arts for reasons other then the ability injure attackers.

I first got involved in Judo about seven years ago in school. I never been much for team sports, prefering sports which focused on individual achievement instead. I enjoyed the skill and tactics of judo from the start, its not about who can be the most vicious or strongest, but instead matches are won or lost based the tactics you use. Ultimately I stopped doing Judo my fellow students seems more interested in learning ways to hurt and inflict pain. For me, I'd rather loose a match then hurt someone, for them they'd rather hurt someone then win.

Years later I decided to give Judo another go in college. Complete new set of people with a different attitude. Honour and respect for your opponent is uppermost. A good match is where you see skilled moved execute with just the right amount of power, poor matches are where you see flying arms, knees and elbows. So I've stuck with it. When you meet someone seriously into judo, and not just the fighting part but the other aspects as well, its hard not to admire the sport and want to take part in it.

arybvtcw0eolkf

Boston, only thing I'd say about that is when your out on the mat, your only obligation to respecting your opponent is a bow, when you fight respect the rules but feck your opponent.

Its a fight, your there to win and hurting is all part of it.

Have a look at what Yamashita has to say about attacking your injured opponent..

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AajY3HA0RtU

And to qoute the man (not on this clip) "if people could see on my face what I feel in my heart no one would fight me".

As regards Judo for self defence, honestly I haven't met one person who has taken up Judo for this - however having said that I've never asked anyone in the clubs I train in why they started Judo.

Naos

Awesome clip Mairt, very inspiring.

You know of any good books on the man?

OP: Out of curiosity, where abouts are you training? Only Judo/Jiujitsu/Karate places I know under the same roof are in Coolmine out your way, NW.

arybvtcw0eolkf

Naos wrote: »

Awesome clip Mairt, very inspiring.

You know of any good books on the man?

OP: Out of curiosity, where abouts are you training? Only Judo/Jiujitsu/Karate places I know under the same roof are in Coolmine out your way, NW.

Re. books on Yamashita, his biography is covered pretty good in 'The Pyjama Game'.


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FruitLover

Is there a reason you ruled out karate, but took up kickboxing? Personally, I'd train in all of the above if I had the time. Find out what works for you and what you're likely to stick with. Each have their own advantages for self-defence purposes

Dave147 wrote: »

Jiu Jitsu :P

:mad:

Jaysus, as someone fluent in Japanese (and who lived (and trained) in Japan), I'm going to have to dish out baetin's to anyone who starts correcting romanized spellings of Japanese words!

The correct spelling is 柔術. There, argue with that....

adrenalinjunkie wrote: »

Ok so which is it? I've seen different clubs spell it differently not just the general public so I'm assuming either both are acceptable or they are in two different languages?

Getting a little off-topic, but it's to do with the way Japanese writing is transliterated to Roman characters. There is no single standard; there are at least two popular methods, one of which (the 'Hepburn' method) is even subdivided to two sub-methods. As above, the correct way to write the name of the martial art in Japanese (kanji) is: 柔術 (literally means 'gentle technique'). This can also be written in hiragana (which is a syllabary) thus: じゅうじゅつ. While kanji are used as a method of writing concepts/meanings, hiragana is purely for representing sound (similar to the way most European languages use the Roman alphabet), so it's easer to explain the pronunciation using hiragana. The symbol 'じ' on its own is pronounced 'ji', the symbol 'ゆ' on its own is pronounced 'yu'. Together ('じゅ'), they're pronounced 'ju'. Notice that the 'ju' at the beginning is exactly the same ('じゅ') as the 'ju' in the middle; the only difference is that the first one is slightly elongated by the additional 'u' ('う') sound. Together, this whole phrase is pronounced is "juu-j'tsu". The reason I put an apostrophe in the second 'ju' is that the 'u' sound in the second 'ju' is barely pronounced ('u' and 'i' sounds are curtailed before certain consonants (particularly 't' and 's') in Japanese). The result is that the final two syllables of the phrase sound (to a Western ear) more like 'jitsu' than 'jutsu'. This has led some people to transliterate it as such, despite the fact that 'jutsu' is the more 'technically correct' method. This is one of the common ways of transliterating Japanese - by sound. Another common way is to break words down to their individual hiragana syllables (as I've shown above), and transliterate them as such. This is considered technically more accurate from a literary point of view, but not from an aural point of view. Whether one method is more 'correct' than the other is a matter of opinion (whether someone prefers technical literary accuracy or aural accuracy). Regardless, you'll find that most people who argue about 'jiu-jitsu' vs 'jujutsu' vs 'jujitsu' don't actually know what the hell they're talking about (i.e. they don't know Japanese). It's all a bit silly really, as no matter what way you want to spell the word, there is only one correct pronunciation.

If you really want to know, I'd personally go for "jūj'tsu" (the macron (little line above the 'u') signifies an elongated vowel, something we don't really have in English, and the reason for the apostrophe is above).

adrenalinjunkie wrote: »

Will it get easier though?

Yes. Just make sure you don't ignore joint pain (as opposed to muscle pain).

Cherry Blossom

Mairt wrote: »

Two things.

First off it sounds to me like your carrying an injury, so don't train for a few days.

Second, to me it would appear as though your doing way too much for a novice.

Both combined, and throw in inadequate rest and your probably looking at a total breakdown in your training for the long term.

Rest the inuried leg, don't train Judo or KB (and leave the horse alone too) for a week. If the injury doesn't show a marked imporvement get some medical advice.

Thanks, went for a little gentle walk instead of KB tonight as I've been lying on my backside since Saturday, almost got eaten by a Rottweiler I should be back on form by Thursday and I think I'll give the judo another go on Saturday. The guy told me fitness wasn't really necessary so I interpreted that as it would be okay to do both. :rolleyes:

Naos wrote: »

OP: Out of curiosity, where abouts are you training? Only Judo/Jiujitsu/Karate places I know under the same roof are in Coolmine out your way, NW.

I'm not in the north west of Dublin, I'm in the north west of Ireland

FruitLover wrote: »

Is there a reason you ruled out karate, but took up kickboxing? Personally, I'd train in all of the above if I had the time. Find out what works for you and what you're likely to stick with. Each have their own advantages for self-defence purposes

If you really want to know, I'd personally go for "jūj'tsu" (the macron (little line above the 'u') signifies an elongated vowel, something we don't really have in English, and the reason for the apostrophe is above).

Yes. Just make sure you don't ignore joint pain (as opposed to muscle pain).

Yes, I looked into Karate before I started kickboxing, they told me everyone went to the same class and adults were especially welcome! Of course they were since everyone else was under 10 apart from myself unless you wanted to count the crowds of parents that insisted on sitting on their fat asses to watch ... now I just wouldn't be dying about being a source of entertainment for other people :rolleyes:

Also thanks for clearing up the spelling issue, I for one actually did want to know.

arybvtcw0eolkf

FruitLover wrote: »

The correct spelling is 柔術. There, argue with that....

IPPON!!



:P

.

Boston

Mairt wrote: »

Boston, only thing I'd say about that is when your out on the mat, your only obligation to respecting your opponent is a bow, when you fight respect the rules but feck your opponent.

Its a fight, your there to win and hurting is all part of it.

Have a look at what Yamashita has to say about attacking your injured opponent..

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AajY3HA0RtU

And to qoute the man (not on this clip) "if people could see on my face what I feel in my heart no one would fight me".

As regards Judo for self defence, honestly I haven't met one person who has taken up Judo for this - however having said that I've never asked anyone in the clubs I train in why they started Judo.

I wouldn't perform an unskilled and uncontrolled move just to win, and I wouldn't perform a move those sole purpose was to hurt/injure with no prospect of gaining a tactical advantage. I've encountered people who have no problem doing either.

Nice clip btw.

arybvtcw0eolkf

Boston wrote: »

I wouldn't perform an unskilled and uncontrolled move just to win, and I wouldn't perform a move those sole purpose was to hurt/injure with no prospect of gaining a tactical advantage. I've encountered people who have no problem doing either.

Nice clip btw.

Uncontrolled techniques are illegal in Judo, and moves designed to injure (ie your opponent has little or no defence against) - throwing onto the head, attacking the spine, throwing facing forwards are all illegal, attacking the shoulder or legs are all illegal.

After that its entirely up to your opponent to defend themselves, be that with a counter technique or a tap out.

For instance, in Randori I don't think there's any excuse for breaking/injuring your opponents elbow in an arm bar. However in competition the onus is on your opponent to protect themselves and no proportion of blaim can be levelled at you the attacker.

Chokes are a little different (but thats a personal opinion) as I think in Randori although Tori has alot of control some people just won't tap, or they'll leave it until the last second (I'll tap early to an arm bar, but I'll defend the choke to the last second).

As with Yamashita in the clip, it was legal and entirely appropriate for his opponents to attack his obviously injured leg.

jim o doom

cowzerp wrote: »

Just because its not good for competition does not make it good for the street, i done it for about 6 months and it was the biggest waste of time ever, learned more in 1 weeks Boxing or MMA.

eh I never said ANYWHERE in my post that kenpo was no good for competition.. I just said it was mainly street oriented..

I can't really comment on your own personal experience with the art - was it tradional kenpo, shotokan, something along those lines, or (what I'm doing) Ed Parkers american style? - personally I love it and find it on practical terms to be excellent - I am fitter, stronger, faster, more confident in myself and my ability to defend myself from it - so my own personal experience has been exempliary -sadly unlike your own..
Also I don't know training you received nor what quality of instructor - we have a 7th dan 2nd generation black belt - fastest moving toughest 60+ year old I've ever met - his love of the art is simply infectious

The reason I bring it up is that I don't think the grappling arts are ideal for a lot of street confrontations as many times an attacker may have help/mates - and if you are grappling with him - especially on the ground - then the mates could be actively kicking you in the head/nuts/doing god knows what to you.. and the OP did mention self defense! - grappling is good for a doorman to have because he has the backup of other doormen and the law a short phone call away - a person on the street does not necessarily have those advantages. Also doormen could face legal implications for assaulting (read punching/kicking/whatever) an opponent - so knowledge of restraining and locking technique can be very necessary.

And please judo/jiu jisu people don't jump on me for the post - I am quite interested in learning some jiu jitsu with a kenpo BB mate of mine, when I acquire my own BB & have some spare time for another art!

arybvtcw0eolkf

jim o doom wrote: »

And please judo/jiu jisu people don't jump on me for the post - I am quite interested in learning some jiu jitsu with a kenpo BB mate of mine, when I acquire my own BB & have some spare time for another art!

Why should we jump on you for expressing your love and dedication to your chosen style?.

Tbh I think its pretty pathetic when people talk about training in a sport in preparation for a street attack, but if thats what motivates someone to stay fit, focused & dedicated then I won't knock it - I just think its a little Walter Mitty thats all.

.

jim o doom

Mairt wrote: »

Why should we jump on you for expressing your love and dedication to your chosen style?.

Tbh I think its pretty pathetic when people talk about training in a sport in preparation for a street attack, but if thats what motivates someone to stay fit, focused & dedicated then I won't knock it - I just think its a little Walter Mitty thats all.

.

ah - I do kenpo because I have a great love of it - like mentally I split arts into different groups (I'm sure most do) and some of them are competing arts, like Jiu jitsu and judo - and are good in a fighting situation as well;- depending on the situation..

So I do it for fun, fitness & because the world being a dangerous place & the most likely place for me to get attacked being in real life, on a street, in a pub - hell even my own house (im not paranoid about getting attacked haha.. in case it sounds that way!) - I think what I learn should be applicable to those potential situations.. (I dunno how walter mitty im sounding here - Im a brown belt myself - it's just how I feel about it - probably wayyy off topic!)

The reason I piped in initially was that the OP mentionned self defense & to me kenpo is particularily good for that! but Im probably harping on at length and boring ye all so I'll leave it out - plus the OP already said he has found something he is interested in to boot

Nothingcompares

Boston wrote: »

I wouldn't perform an unskilled and uncontrolled move just to win,

What do you mean? What's an unskilled move? Like a normal move performed unskillfully?

Boston

A move which I knew in all likely I wouldn't be able to perform correctly and in failure to do so I was likely to injure another person. Unskilled and uncontrolled together. Example being a move where a person is very likely to land badly.

Nothingcompares

I kinda see what you're saying but at the same time I'm struggling to get a real life example in my head. It's kinda like the heel hook issue, I don't use them because the risk of injury is too great .

Like if I go for a throw and the person defends and I still try and attack it's a common struggle in grappling. There's a number of different outcomes:

1. I'll be successful and perform a perfect throw
2. The person will defend so well no throw will take place
3. I'll half throw the person
4. The defender will struggle and land awkwardly.
5. The defender will struggle and land without score and without any kind of injury