Does a lack of faith affect prayer?

Jessibelle

Hi, I've a quick question to ask if you wouldn't mind? A friend of mine who is a devout Catholic is going through a particularly rough time, and has asked me to join her in saying the Rosary at a special mass this Friday in her parish. I would be best described as agnostic, being of very little faith in any religion at all, but would have no objections to doing this, if it helps and supports my friend. However, the point was raised to me by another devout Catholic, that if I participate, it may be seen by some as a mockery of their beliefs, which would be far from my intention. My question is I suppose, if a non believer prays to help someone else, is it a mockery, an empty gesture or is it taken in the spirit intended?

Soul Winner

Jessibelle wrote: »

Hi, I've a quick question to ask if you wouldn't mind? A friend of mine who is a devout Catholic is going through a particularly rough time, and has asked me to join her in saying the Rosary at a special mass this Friday in her parish. I would be best described as agnostic, being of very little faith in any religion at all, but would have no objections to doing this, if it helps and supports my friend. However, the point was raised to me by another devout Catholic, that if I participate, it may be seen by some as a mockery of their beliefs, which would be far from my intention. My question is I suppose, if a non believer prays to help someone else, is it a mockery, an empty gesture or is it taken in the spirit intended?

I'm not a catholic so maybe one of the resident RCs can give you the catholic perspective on it. But from a purely Christian point of view I can say that a lack of faith doesn't necessarily affect the act of praying per se, but the scripture does say that without faith it is impossible to please God. So to pray without faith would be futile in terms of expecting the prayer to be answered and thus effecting it actually being answered.

But God is sovereign and He still knows the heart of everyone who prays, whatever the reason or motive and can read the heart better than you or I, so who knows? He could answer the prayer for sake of someone else. But we are supposed to ask with the expectancy of receiving what is being asked for and if it is a long time coming then to hang in there in faith until it does come. But if you are praying for with your friend just to comfort her and that is good enough for her and helps her cope with her rough time and you don't have a problem with it yourself then maybe that is the best anyone can hope for really.

chozometroid

Soul Winner wrote: »

I'm not a catholic so maybe one of the resident RCs can give you the catholic perspective on it. But from a purely Christian point of view I can say that a lack of faith doesn't necessarily affect the act of praying per se, but the scripture does say that without faith it is impossible to please God. So to pray without faith would be futile in terms of expecting the prayer to be answered and thus effecting it actually being answered.

But God is sovereign and He still knows the heart of everyone who prays, whatever the reason or motive and can read the heart better than you or I, so who knows? He could answer the prayer for sake of someone else. But we are supposed to ask with the expectancy of receiving what is being asked for and if it is a long time coming then to hang in there in faith until it does come. But if you are praying for with your friend just to comfort her and that is good enough for her and helps her cope with her rough time and you don't have a problem with it yourself then maybe that is the best anyone can hope for really.

James 1
5 If any of you lack wisdom, let him ask of God, that giveth to all men liberally, and upbraideth not; and it shall be given him.

6 But let him ask in faith, nothing wavering. For he that wavereth is like a wave of the sea driven with the wind and tossed.

7 For let not that man think that he shall receive any thing of the Lord.

8 A double minded man is unstable in all his ways.

Soul Winner

chozometroid wrote: »

James 1
5 If any of you lack wisdom, let him ask of God, that giveth to all men liberally, and upbraideth not; and it shall be given him.

6 But let him ask in faith, nothing wavering. For he that wavereth is like a wave of the sea driven with the wind and tossed.

7 For let not that man think that he shall receive any thing of the Lord.

8 A double minded man is unstable in all his ways.

James never followed Jesus during His earthly ministry and wasn't even chosen by Jesus to be an apostle. Plus He kept the church in bondage to the law that Jesus died to free it from. If you're gonna quote scripture please quote someone some authority. Ta.

chozometroid

Nice of you to turn this thread in a negative direction because of some rant you feel you had to make.


1 Tim 2:8
I will therefore that men pray every where, lifting up holy hands, without wrath and doubting.

Rev Hellfire

There's no reason for you not to participate, imho.
In many ways the rosary is simply a mantra, your agnosticism is not incompatible with it. Its not a prayer in the 'traditional' sense.

nozzferrahhtoo

Jessibelle,

I am quite sure in Catholicism that it would be taken in the spirit intended and that it would mean a lot for your loved ones if you do become part of their ceremony.

I say this for two reasons. One obvious and one not so much.

The obvious is as plain as the nose on your face They asked didn’t they??? It clearly means a lot to them to have you there.

Secondly, it was a surprise to many of us that Agnesë Gonxhe Bojaxhiu (known to most as Mother Theresa) came out as an atheist. In her letters she wrote that she doesn’t hear a voice, she doesn’t feel anything or any presence and essentially she just couldn’t bring herself to believe this stuff any more.

Her superiors wrote back to her and said “Good!”. In their eyes she was going through a dark night of the soul and this placed her closer to the suffering of Christ on the cross.

For these people even unbelief is belief of a sort. With that kind of mentality I fail to see how your presence could be a mockery of anything.

PDN

nozzferrahhtoo wrote: »

Secondly, it was a surprise to many of us that Agnesë Gonxhe Bojaxhiu (known to most as Mother Theresa) came out as an atheist. In her letters she wrote that she doesn’t hear a voice, she doesn’t feel anything or any presence and essentially she just couldn’t bring herself to believe this stuff any more.

What Mother Theresa wrote was that she did not feel God's presence, yet carried on serving him, praying to him and believing in him. In two letters she tells of things getting so bad that she even doubted God's existence.

To present that as saying she "came out as an atheist" requires a degree of spin-doctoring that is simply quite breathtaking.

nozzferrahhtoo

I am not about to let you troll hijack this topic into yet another boards.ie pointless debate about how all of us seem to mean a different thing when we use the term „atheist“. If you want to dig up that discussion again have the decorum to do it with me in PM and not derail the topic of the posters genuine question above.

To put this back on topic therefore:

My point is clear and in fact you made it for me. She did not feel the presence, she doubted the existence of this god, but she went through the motions of prayer regardless. Regardless of what word I use to describe her or your problem with it I think this example serves itself well in Jessibelles dilemma above.

This impacted those who actually had the faith not a jot and it is this, and this alone I refer to in my point and it is why I used this example. I therefore think Jessibelle above should take solace in this example and go ahead with the request to be there for her loved ones in a ceremony that means a lot to them.

PDN

nozzferrahhtoo wrote: »

I am not about to let you troll hijack this topic into yet another boards.ie pointless debate about how all of us seem to mean a different thing when we use the term „atheist“. If you want to dig up that discussion again have the decorum to do it with me in PM and not derail the topic of the posters genuine question above.

Let's get some things straight.

Firstly, if you post statements then are controversial or inaccurate then you can expect others to question and challenge them.

Secondly, it is not up to you what you 'let' happen in this thread. As moderator that is my job, not yours.

Thirdly, if you want to post on this board again I suggest you don't accuse the moderators of trolling in their own forum.

I hope that is sufficiently clear for you.

philologos

Soul Winner wrote: »

James never followed Jesus during His earthly ministry and wasn't even chosen by Jesus to be an apostle. Plus He kept the church in bondage to the law that Jesus died to free it from. If you're gonna quote scripture please quote someone some authority. Ta.

??

James doesn't have authority because he didn't serve Jesus during His earthly ministry?

What does that say about Paul then?

Both converted to Christianity, both learned and demonstrated the Gospel, James amongst the Jewish people, and Paul amongst the Gentiles. Why should we dismiss either?

nozzferrahhtoo

By the meaning of the word atheist I have my post was entirely accurate. If you have a different meaning for it then I concede that and I am willing to agree to differ. PM me with any further discussion on it if you like because I am there and happy to talk.

However I do think we should show a modicum of respect to the opening poster who has a genuine question and we should not derail this persons thread. This person wants help and we have it to give. Do you not think this polite?

So again, my point on the topic of this thread is that the people WANT Jessi at the ceremony and there are examples such as that which I gave of people who have lost the faith or have no faith where they indeed were part of such ceremonies. I think therefore that Jessi should have no qualms at all in attending and partaking in the ceremony and I wish her all happiness in doing so.

philologos

nozzferrahhtoo, but she didn't stop believing in God, hence not atheist.

PDN

nozzferrahhtoo wrote: »

By the meaning of the word atheist I have my post was entirely accurate. If you have a different meaning for it then I concede that and I am willing to agree to differ. PM me with any further discussion on it if you like because I am there and happy to talk.

Sorry, if you post me a question by PM I will answer by PM. Post stuff in a public forum and we discuss it in a public forum.

However I do think we should show a modicum of respect to the opening poster who has a genuine question and we should not derail this persons thread. This person wants help and we have it to give. Do you not think this polite?

And that would be fine if you hadn't made a statement that is bound to be inflammatory and offensive to the Catholic posters who frequent this board.

Given that most people define 'atheist' as someone who doesn't believe in a God (rather than someone who has doubted God at one or two points of their life) you should have realised that making such a claim about Mother Theresa would provoke a response and, was in itself, impolite.

Soooo .... back to the OP. Your friend obviously wants you to be there, so your attendance at the rosary is an act of friendship, not mockery. The fact that you choose to do so despite not sharing her beliefs is an even stronger indication of your friendship. Our beliefs and ideologies should never stop us from being a good friend to someone.

nozzferrahhtoo

Fine you win if you wish to discuss it here I will. If this is belief in god….

I call, I cling, I want ... and there is no One to answer ... no One on Whom I can cling ... no, No One. Alone ... Where is my Faith ... even deep down right in there is nothing, but emptiness & darkness ... My God ... how painful is this unknown pain ... I have no Faith ... I dare not utter the words & thoughts that crowd in my heart ... & make me suffer untold agony.

Then I guess I believe in god too. Fancy that, I never knew, go figure.

Anyway you can be an atheist and believe in god. It’s called being a deist. Non belief in god is not a pre-requisite of atheism, they just tend to go hand in hand more often than not.

I am glad we are in unanimous agreement on the opening poster though. Everyone from all sides of the issue feels that attending the ceremony is the right thing to do. Anyone want to play devils advocate on this one to explore the opposing views or will we just declare it unanimous

postcynical

Jessibelle wrote: »

My question is I suppose, if a non believer prays to help someone else, is it a mockery, an empty gesture or is it taken in the spirit intended?

I think it would be the 3rd option. You are a very good friend.

MrPudding

postcynical wrote: »

I think it would be the 3rd option. You are a very good friend.

Agreed. Regardless of whether or not prayer works, your friend obviously believes it does. By taking part you are providing them with friendship and strength. Personally I think that is more valuable and any possible increase in the likelihood the prayer will be answered simply because there is an extra voice.

You are being a good friend.

MrP

Jessibelle

Thanks Everyone, all responses are very much appreciated. And I've been given some food for thought .