O'Gara v Southern Hemisphere

Pinetree Boy

Not another debate about the merits of ROG but on more than one occassion I have seen threads stating (usually to support criticism of ROG) that he isn't rated in the SH.

Personally, as a kiwi I have always rated him and my impression has been that most people down here do. Sure he is not the greatest tackler in the world but most 1st 5's aren't. The great Grant Fox couldn't tackle to save himself.

Anyway did a bit of a search of the NZ Herald and at least over last two years couldn't find the NZ criticism relied on so often. In fact generally the following articles represent what has been said. So upto Irish fans to love or hate him but don't use us poor SH fans to justify your opinion.

With Carter injured and given the form NZ 1st 5's in Super 14 to date I think we would love to have him.

http://www.nzherald.co.nz/sport/news/article.cfm?c_id=4&objectid=10543086&pnum=2 -McCaw rates Bod And ROG


http://www.nzherald.co.nz/sport/news/article.cfm?c_id=4&objectid=10543086&pnum=2 -John Drake Rog best tactical kicker in the game

http://www.nzherald.co.nz/sport/news/article.cfm?c_id=4&objectid=10514862&pnum=2 -Rog capable of controlling test

http://www.nzherald.co.nz/rugby-world-cup/news/article.cfm?c_id=522&objectid=10463363&pnum=2 -ROG one of the best tactical kickers in the game and in the last two years has started to pose much more of a threat as a runner

tughfc

have to agree rog is underrated and slatted for his rugby talents! the guy is the best tactical kicker in the world and i'd have him in my lions squad ahead of cipriani any day! the lions squad is picked on performance of late and i know he's not setting the world a light but who out of the home nations who is! goode isint up to it jones has been playing average godman is not good enough and cipriani isint even in the england squad, so he definetly should go gain more credit for what he's done for ireland and how he puts people like bod into space

d'Oracle

Pinetree Boy wrote: »

Not another debate about the merits of ROG but on more than one occassion I have seen threads stating (usually to support criticism of ROG) that he isn't rated in the SH.

Personally, as a kiwi I have always rated him and my impression has been that most people down here do. Sure he is not the greatest tackler in the world but most 1st 5's aren't. The great Grant Fox couldn't tackle to save himself.

Anyway did a bit of a search of the NZ Herald and at least over last two years couldn't find the NZ criticism relied on so often. In fact generally the following articles represent what has been said. So upto Irish fans to love or hate him but don't use us poor SH fans to justify your opinion.

With Carter injured and given the form NZ 1st 5's in Super 14 to date I think we would love to have him.

http://www.nzherald.co.nz/sport/news/article.cfm?c_id=4&objectid=10543086&pnum=2 -McCaw rates Bod And ROG


http://www.nzherald.co.nz/sport/news/article.cfm?c_id=4&objectid=10543086&pnum=2 -John Drake Rog best tactical kicker in the game

http://www.nzherald.co.nz/sport/news/article.cfm?c_id=4&objectid=10514862&pnum=2 -Rog capable of controlling test

http://www.nzherald.co.nz/rugby-world-cup/news/article.cfm?c_id=522&objectid=10463363&pnum=2 -ROG one of the best tactical kickers in the game and in the last two years has started to pose much more of a threat as a runner

I spent a year and a half in NZ recently.
I didnt meet many Kiwis who rated him.
In fact I got texts and emails saying he wouldnt make a school 15 in NZ after the last NZ v Ireland Match. Where he was annonymous.

O'Gara cant tackle well and cant take punishment. He goes to sleep once he gets one or two good hits. He has a lot to prove against a full strength Boks or AB's.

Richie McCaw always compliments someone. I have never heard hi criticise anyone. Ever.
And The other two articles turned out wrong.
Ireland got smothered, ROG didnt control anything and he looked about as threatening as a crocus. (little springtime there for ya.)

And SH isnt just NZ. Giteau? Kurtley Beale?

ScholesyIsGod

d'Oracle wrote: »

I spent a year and a half in NZ recently.
I didnt meet many Kiwis who rated him.
In fact I got texts and emails saying he wouldnt make a school 15 in NZ after the last NZ v Ireland Match. Where he was annonymous.

O'Gara cant tackle well and cant take punishment. He goes to sleep once he gets one or two good hits. He has a lot to prove against a full strength Boks or AB's.

Richie McCaw always compliments someone. I have never heard hi criticise anyone. Ever.
And The other two articles turned out wrong.
Ireland got smothered, ROG didnt control anything and he looked about as threatening as a crocus. (little springtime there for ya.)

And SH isnt just NZ. Giteau? Kurtley Beale?

I seem to remember him srcoring all the points when we beat South Africa 17-12, scoring a try as well

Pinetree Boy

Not speaking for all the SH and maybe a year and a half out does my 42 years born and bred in a country whose papers a full of the game and whose population debate it whenever 3 or more gather.

I honestly don't know if he deserves his place but what I am saying is that contrary to so many "my mates in SH all say" and "the SH media all say" posts he has a reasonable rep in NZ and is not rated a bunny.

themont85

The NZ seem to have him rated fairly right.

Best tactical kicker in the game-yes, although Carter can kick very well its just that NZ don't rely on that type of pressure like Ireland do so we see it rarely
very capable international fly half-check

Saying he is world class-no, absolutely correct imo

Lets be fair 1 game vs South Africa in LR. one of the dodgiest trys ever seen in international rugby. Wasn't a dominant display by any means. And even still its one of 30 odd he must have played against the SH teams.

The myth about the SH is very much incorrect imo.Yes they are biased in out look towards themselves and their treatment of Bod in 05 was very poor. But lets be honest the SH is the best, 5 out of 6 WC. Far superior in head to heads. No wonder they look at themselves more than the NH, thats just being honest.

ScholesyIsGod

ScholesyIsGod wrote: »

I seem to remember him srcoring all the points when we beat South Africa 17-12, scoring a try as well

Wasnt a full strength team.

ScholesyIsGod

Aadhya Ripe Range wrote: »

Wasnt a full strength team.

South Africa: P Montgomery; B Paulse, M Joubert, De Wet Barry, A Willemse, J van der Westhuyzen; F Du Preez; O Du Randt, J Smit (captain), E Andrews, B Botha, V Matfield, S Burger, AJ Venter, J van Niekerk

That was a full strength team in 2004

anonymous_joe

ScholesyIsGod wrote: »

South Africa: P Montgomery; B Paulse, M Joubert, De Wet Barry, A Willemse, J van der Westhuyzen; F Du Preez; O Du Randt, J Smit (captain), E Andrews, B Botha, V Matfield, S Burger, AJ Venter, J van Niekerk

That was a full strength team in 2004

That team would still probably fúck most teams up. :P

phog

Aadhya Ripe Range wrote: »

Wasnt a full strength team.

Why didn't the rest of the Irish players score then?

premierstone

Aadhya Ripe Range wrote: »

Wasnt a full strength team.

ScholesyIsGod wrote: »

South Africa: P Montgomery; B Paulse, M Joubert, De Wet Barry, A Willemse, J van der Westhuyzen; F Du Preez; O Du Randt, J Smit (captain), E Andrews, B Botha, V Matfield, S Burger, AJ Venter, J van Niekerk

That was a full strength team in 2004

LOL come on Goose we await your reply or are you still hiding behind the couch after that very touching and moving tribute they had on the tv3 news last night for Irelands greatest flyhalf of all time (their words not mine)

ScholesyIsGod

ScholesyIsGod wrote: »

South Africa: P Montgomery; B Paulse, M Joubert, De Wet Barry, A Willemse, J van der Westhuyzen; F Du Preez; O Du Randt, J Smit (captain), E Andrews, B Botha, V Matfield, S Burger, AJ Venter, J van Niekerk

That was a full strength team in 2004

Yeah your right,apart from De Villiers.I should have double checked the team.I must have been thinking about another series.
I hold my hand up,you were right.

Also worth adding that SA won the Tri Nations that year aswell,probably our best ever victory against SH opposition.

premierstone wrote: »

LOL come on Goose we await your reply or are you still hiding behind the couch after that very touching and moving tribute they had on the tv3 news last night for Irelands greatest flyhalf of all time (their words not mine)

I stopped watching Tv3 sport after Sinead Cassan gave probably the most disgraceful display of rudeness I have ever seen in her interview with Eddie after the WC.A sad day for Irish rugby,when a sports uneducated ugly troll,embarased the man on national tv.

I would also doubt hes our best ever 10,tony ward,his better leinster teamsmate et all would have something to say about that.

toomevara

Ah come on Goose, reign it in...waaaay too personal

toomevara

toomevara wrote: »

Ah come on Goose, reign it in...waaaay too personal

She isnt a rugby player http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=2055499057
and I think most people on here would agree re Sinead Cassan.

toomevara

Aadhya Ripe Range wrote: »

She isnt a rugby player http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=2055499057
and I think most people on here would agree re Sinead Cassan.

Yes mate, but she is a human being worthy of respect and courtesy..would you like your sister/GF/wife etc...referred to in this manner by well.. anyone?..I have to say I don't like it dude, its ungentlemanly and not your usual style to boot....

toomevara

toomevara wrote: »

Yes mate, but she is a human being worthy of respect and courtesy..would you like your sister/GF/wife etc...referred to in this manner by well.. anyone?..I have to say I don't like it dude, its ungentlemanly and not your usual style to boot....

So was Eddie.

I would hope the people I associate with would not stoop so low as to embarrass a man on live tv to get a shock reaction.

If the post is edited so be it.

toomevara

Aadhya Ripe Range wrote: »

So was Eddie.

I would hope the people I associate with would not stoop so low as to embarrass a man on live tv to get a shock reaction.

If the post is edited so be it.

Cool, Goose I take your point, but as me sainted Ma is fond of saying, "just cos everyone one else blackens their arse and goes mad, should we?".;)

Micky Dolenz

toomevara wrote: »

Cool, Goose I take your point, but as me sainted Ma is fond of saying, "just cos everyone one else blackens their arse and goes mad, should we?".;)

Yes, yes we should :pac::pac::pac:

I like the sounds of your Mum, in a very respectful way ofcourse:)

Back to ROG, he is top European scorer, and has nearly ammassed 90 international caps. Credit where credit is due.

Micky Dolenz

Micky Dolenz wrote: »

Yes, yes we should :pac::pac::pac:

I like the sounds of your Mum, in a very respectful way ofcourse:)

Back to ROG, he is top European scorer, and has nearly ammassed 90 international caps. Credit where credit is due.

I think he has 9 more points to go,which he will probably achieve next match.A great record to have and with Johnny out perenialy,it wont be broken for a long time.

Micky Dolenz

Aadhya Ripe Range wrote: »

I think he has 9 more points to go,which he will probably achieve next match.A great record to have and with Johnny out perenialy,it wont be broken for a long time.

Sorry I should have said European Heineken cup top scorer.

Micky Dolenz

Micky Dolenz wrote: »

Sorry I should have said European Heineken cup top scorer.

Oh,well he has 10 more to go to be the 6 nations top scorer ever and Steven Jones is miles behind,so he aint gona break it.
Its gona stand for a very long time.

anonymous_joe

The guy's a great out-half, it's just that he has one or two weaknesses.

At the end of the day, he's a pro rugby player, so he's technically good at everything, however, there are times when his tackling is a bit weak.

If we're talking about the Southern Hemisphere, O'Gara's channel has at times been targeted because of this, so he's at times had to be protected which slightly fúcks up the team balance.

Also, I think it's worth noting, at this current time, the Southern Hemisphere possesses some extraordinary talent in that area - Giteau, Carter and then a host of Saffer outhalves means that they're capable of a degree of arrogance.

O'Gara's passing and more confident playmaking has really come to the fore lately, offering new dimensions, especially with Paddy Wallace another playmaker outside him and then O'Driscoll outside the two of them whose an almighty creator or finisher.

premierstone

Aadhya Ripe Range wrote: »

I would also doubt hes our best ever 10,tony ward,his better leinster teamsmate et all would have something to say about that.

It was Tony Ward who was actually interviewed in the piece and he reckons O'Gara is Irelands best OH of all time :P

old boy

has anyone stats on the amount of facial injurys (albait minor) he has shipped.

toomevara

premierstone wrote: »

It was Tony Ward who was actually interviewed in the piece and he reckons O'Gara is Irelands best OH of all time :P

I was privileged to see Ollie Campbell play on a number of occasions and while comparisons are odious, especially across the years...that guy was an stonkingly good player, but I would agree with ward...O'Gara is the best OH we've ever produced, but Wavy Davy Humphries on his day comes close in the professional era....

thehighground

premierstone wrote: »

It was Tony Ward who was actually interviewed in the piece and he reckons O'Gara is Irelands best OH of all time :P

I'm surprised - best of all time - from all accounts Jackie Kyle might take that one.

I'd put Ollie Campbell & Tony Ward ahead of O'Gara. With regard to David Humphreys - like O'Gara, tackling was his weakness, but I would put O'Gara way ahead on consistency (another way of saying that when Humphs was good he was brilliant, but when he had a bad day, it was usually shocking!) & longevity, bearing in mind until about 2004 he didn't become first choice OH and he has the same number of caps as BOD, who would have been a first choice centre (when fit) since 2000.

thehighground

old boy wrote: »

has anyone stats on the amount of facial injurys (albait minor) he has shipped.

Some of the injuries haven't been minor - remember he played the 6Ns last year with his head in a bandage because his ear was ripped open in a game against Claremont. (Think the player was cited for it). Tipoki (a kiwi ) commented in interview afterwards at how impressed at how hard he was to be able to continue playing.

Good interview with O'Gara here after Heineken Cup game (I know its Sky - but it is an straight interview). Worth listening to him. Goose might be surprised at how modest he is (one of his comments is that he didn't think he was a big name outside of Ireland).

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rzAnESoYkME

curts82

d'Oracle wrote: »

O'Gara cant tackle well and cant take punishment. He goes to sleep once he gets one or two good hits. He has a lot to prove against a full strength Boks or AB's.

Richie McCaw always compliments someone. I have never heard hi criticise anyone. Ever.
And The other two articles turned out wrong.
Ireland got smothered, ROG didnt control anything and he looked about as threatening as a crocus. (little springtime there for ya.)

And SH isnt just NZ. Giteau? Kurtley Beale?

Most Irish players weren't great that day!no one stood out o gara had an off day but I still rem Carter missing kicks my gran would kick!

SparkyLarks

O'Gara is a very very good player.
Yes he has weaknesses in his game but he has worked on those
and they've gotten better. And his strengths are very very strong

Not sure if he is a great player. but then that is a term used way to much nowadays.

As for best ever OH, Well the IRFU has Jackie Kyle as the greatest irish player of all time.

[Jackass]

In fairness, RO'G was laughable against NZ in Croke Park and was targeted and absolutely oblitorated on a number of occasions, costing one try in his missed tackle (where O'Connell was hobbling I think, can't remeber if it was first try or second try).

If you rate him in NZ, I'd wonder what evidence was used!!! At provincial level he is top of the class as a superb out-half, at international level he is a very weak all round player, but does have a superb tactical kicking game and of course is a top goal kicker also. But at that level he is more of a liability than an asset imo. If himself and David Humphries were the same age O'Gara would have less than half his caps. But the truth is he is and has been the best Irish out-half by a clear country mile ever since the departure of Humphries, so with no competition he racked up the caps and points.

Decent player, but massively over hyped in my opinion and I have no doubt is seen as one of the few weaknesses in the Irish and Munster team by opposition.

If you watch closely also, the amount of protection he gets from the back row is unreal. Which if you were to analyse it, I'm sure you would find leads to a large amount of tries being conceded indirectly. If that channell is safe and secure, the backrow can stick to their job and Munster and Irish defence and organisation would be even better than the very good standard it already is.

Having said that, as a player I do really rate, I've seen Keatley miss a few tackles that I hope is just his young age and lack of weight and experience, with O'Gara is lack of technical ability which is rugby cancer, can't be fixed. Sexton is solid as a rock in defence but leaves massive amounts to be desired in other areas of his game such as the tactical kicking and goal kicking that O'Gara is a master of.

Cojimbo

Who was it that was playing for Ireland at outhalf against England there? It couldn't have been O'Gara, cos he's one of the best outhalves in world rugby. So who was it? Cos he missed 11 points out of 17, threw the ball at the ground several times when passing, and only found touch about twice out of about ten kicks. And it was the same guy against Italy, getting charged down and then giving away a penalty and getting yellow-carded. And then against France he just got steamrolled over by Fritz, which led to France's first try, and then kicked an aimless ball away that they got their second try from. And when was the last time this player actually got 100% of his kicks? Whoever he is, he's an absolute joke.

Micky Dolenz

Cojimbo wrote: »

Who was it that was playing for Ireland at outhalf against England there? It couldn't have been O'Gara, cos he's one of the best outhalves in world rugby. So who was it? Cos he missed 11 points out of 17, threw the ball at the ground several times when passing, and only found touch about twice out of about ten kicks. And it was the same guy against Italy, getting charged down and then giving away a penalty and getting yellow-carded. And then against France he just got steamrolled over by Fritz, which led to France's first try, and then kicked an aimless ball away that they got their second try from. And when was the last time this player actually got 100% of his kicks? Whoever he is, he's an absolute joke.

:rolleyes: Every player has off days.:rolleyes:

Micky Dolenz

Micky Dolenz wrote: »

:rolleyes: Every player has off days.:rolleyes:

Off months you mean.

Cojimbo

If those are off days, then shouldn't he have on days? I mean BOD had to take responsibility for that drop-goal, cos O'Gara couldn't do it. That's just pathetic. At least when he doesn't make the Lions team then maybe people will realise the truth.

Micky Dolenz

Don't give O Driscoll as an example. A player I admire, but can have long peroids of being off form.

ROG's record speaks for itself. Highest scorer in the European cup, two winners medals, soon to be highest scorer in the 6N.

Had a stinker yesterday but I would not disrespect a great servent to Irish and Munster rugby by calling him "an absolute joke".

Change sports lads, you haven't a clue.

poncho000

http://boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=2055501174

Cojimbo

Micky, he has had the Munster jersey for about ten years now without fail. Of course he's going to be the highest scoring player. Same with the 6 nations points. And on that night that he passed the 1000 mark, didn't he miss about 3 or 4 kicks? I don't know if you're friends with him or what, but seriously, you need to just look at him during a match and assess what he does right and what he does wrong.

poncho000

poncho000 wrote: »

http://boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=2055501174

Why did you start another thread,when he is being discussed in this.


Also,when I criticise him I give reasons.

The OP said his kicking record is crap and he only gets the easy kicks,that is bollox.

I dont rate him but he is in the top 2 goal kickers in the world.At least criticise him on things hes bad at.

Micky Dolenz

Cojimbo wrote: »

Micky, he has had the Munster jersey for about ten years now without fail. .

Thats good enough for me, He has been the top choice no 10 for the best team in Europe is a testament of his skill. It's not like Munster couldn't afford/attract top players to the set up in his position.

I will however watch him more closely to make sure my view isn't clouded.

poncho000

acutally goose this thread has gone off topic it was originally about o gara in the southern hemisphere. and now there is one about o gara in general

Micky Dolenz

Aadhya Ripe Range wrote: »

I dont rate him but he is in the top 2 goal kickers in the world.

Goose, That statement is an oxymoron.

What No 10's do you rate?

Cojimbo

Most appreciated Micky. At least you're willing to listen.

Micky Dolenz

Micky Dolenz wrote: »

Goose, That statement is an oxymoron.

What No 10's do you rate?

How is it an oxymoron,his job isnt just to kick goals!

Go back through this thread and others about him recently and you will see I give reasons why and a list of 10's I rate.

I dont rate him because I think he is one dimensional,he is however a brilliant goal kicker,so I dont see how anyone can criticise his goal kicking as its usually top drawer.

Cojimbo

Goose, look at the facts. Ireland vs England he kicked 3 out of 7. Ireland vs Italy he kicked two penalties i think, and missed one didn't he? It really is rare that he gets all his kicks in a game. Even Goode and Flood got their kicks against Ireland.

Cojimbo

Cojimbo wrote: »

Goose, look at the facts. Ireland vs England he kicked 3 out of 7. Ireland vs Italy he kicked two penalties i think, and missed one didn't he? It really is rare that he gets all his kicks in a game. Even Goode and Flood got their kicks against Ireland.

I agree with you that he is not a brilliant player,I always criticise him.

He has lots of flaws such as his tackling and running etc but he is usually brilliant at goal kicking,so I dont see how you can use that as a reason.

He had a bad day yesterday but he is usually good at goals.

Cojimbo

No Goose. I'm sorry, you seem like a nice guy, but since the heineken cup 06 he has not been a world class goal kicker. If you could see the statistics, you'd agree with me.

Cojimbo

Cojimbo wrote: »

No Goose. I'm sorry, you seem like a nice guy, but since the heineken cup 06 he has not been a world class goal kicker. If you could see the statistics, you'd agree with me.

Do you have the statistics?

From watching him I think he is a good goal kicker,you dont get 6 off the 6 nations record if your not good.

Cojimbo

6 whats off the 6 nations record?

Cojimbo

Cojimbo wrote: »

6 whats off the 6 nations record?

http://www.rbs6nations.com/en/home.php

Bottom of the page

Wilkinson has 479 points
Ogara has 475 points

so hes actually 4 off the record.I would say you have to be a good goal kicker to get the record,which he will do in his next match.

Cojimbo

But he has 90 caps or so. He's played way more than Johnny Wilkinson. He should have passed him long ago.

Tim Robbins

Pinetree Boy wrote: »

Not another debate about the merits of ROG but on more than one occassion I have seen threads stating (usually to support criticism of ROG) that he isn't rated in the SH.

Great post. ROG is prone to form like most international sport players. It's only the real top players McCaw, O'Driscoll that give you 9 / 10 or 10 / 10 games every single time.

O'Gara will give you 6, 7, 8, 9, 10 depending on his form.

I don't O'Leary is playing well at nine which isn't helping anyone in the backline.