Best way to improve a Marathon Time??

MREGAN

Was wondering what training tips or techniques are best for improving a Marathon time. I done my first last year and went into it with the attitude just to finish it. I finished and felt I went to slow worrying if I blew up near the end and didnt get around it.

Feel my training has improved this year and I feel more confident now I know I can complete it.

What you recon to build my running into a decent marathon time?

Cheers

Peckham

Will need a bit of context to advise:
1) What's your running history pre-marathon?
2) What training plan did you follow for the marathon
3) What time did you do in the marathon, and when was it?
4) What sort of running are you doing at the moment?
5) When is your next target marathon?

MREGAN

1) What's your running history pre-marathon?
I am 28 generally fit ran a lot of cross country in school and for boxing training until I was about 20 then hardly ran up to 2 years ago. Started doing 10k's three nights a week and a slightly longer run at the weekends in the lead up to the 08 Belfast Marathon in May. Missing weeks at a time then getting back into it. Training wasnt great for last years. Mainly gym work but when I did get out I always felt good on the roads.

2) What training plan did you follow for the marathon?
No real training plan just getting out when I could. Mostly a few short runs during the week then a longer one at the weekend. Think 19 Miles was the most a ran pre Marathon. 15 Miles prior to that and they were the only two long runs I done in the whole training for the 08 Marathon.

3) What time did you do in the marathon, and when was it?
May 08 I finished 4h 24mins

4) What sort of running are you doing at the moment?
I go to the gym everyday mon-fri. At the minute I am running 10k's again three times a week. Done a 12Mile run last night with a really steep climb near the end. Had no problems finished very fast and feeling good today. Plan another similar run tomorrow night.

5) When is your next target marathon?
May 09 is the Belfast Marathon I am training for now.

911sc

MREGAN wrote: »

May 08 I finished 4h 24mins

My first marathon was in Oct 2007 in 4h27. My last one (4th) was in Oct 2008 in 3h57min.
While i may not have increased a lot my weekly mileage in one year, i have focused on doing few long runs rather than plenty short ones, and been more consistent in my training.
I have made changes to my daily diet.
I have been extremely carefully about diet (carbo loading seems to have worked as i did not hit the wall for the first time) and hydration the week before the race
Oct08 was the first time i actually ran 26.2miles none stop.

To break the 4 hours (if that's your target), you simply need to run consistently start to finish, not necessarily much faster pace than your 4h24, but never walk/stop. Put in your mind that 5:40 per km (9:09 per mile) is a slow pace, and that you can do that for 42kms.

Peckham

Best advice I can give to get your time down would be to simply get out running more often (maybe dropping some of the gym sessions and replace them with runs). Take a look at some of the structured training plans, however you're leaving it very late for these, given that you have 10 weeks till the marathon. Ideally you should have started one of these plans back in January.

Would you feel comfortable jumping into this intermediate 1 plan, at week 9 or whatever it is counting back from Belfast marathon

MREGAN

I'd say I could do that. I was thinking sticking to a training plan should be the first thing to do. Thanks for the link now I need to get everything else out the way and stick to running. I did the same last year and started late so I know I can do it just need to build the legs to take me over in a better time. Cheers again

--amadeus--

Good advice up there - and Peckham is right, you'd normally want 16 weeks+ for a full training plan. In your situation I would guess that your best and biggest improvements would be through a proper, structured training plan with progressive long runs. Def pick a plan and follow it for teh 10 weeks left and ou should see a marked improvement.

Speaking personally I went from 4:23 to 3:25 off the back of consistent, planned training. 30 - 35 miles per week, 3 - 5 runs a week, 2 marathons a year with training cycles of 16 - 18 weeks each. There really is no substitute for miles in your legs. I have since moved from 3:25 to 3:11 off greater quality in my training - more tempo and PMP runs in particular - as well as adding more miles (average is now 45 - 55 per week)

von Neumann

Work on your technique and any weak muscles you might have?
eg. stomach muscles, when they let me down it ruins my stride....race over .

The first slow marathon is the hardest. They get easier the faster you go . so keep training and you'll soon be woundering what all the fuss is about :P.

brutes

For me the key runs are - once a week - in your marathon training peak phase ( say six weeks pre taper)

Long run , 20 miles, with a pick up in last 5 to marathon pace,
Tempo run, absolutely vital imo, eg 2 mile warm up, 4 mile at 10k or just over pace per mile, 2 mile down
Steady run 8-10 mile at marathon pace or just over
Do the rest at easy pace

These have knocked lumps off my marathon time 3.26 to 2.47 in 4 yrs so far;)...despite long spells of injury 3/4 months out ..

--amadeus--

brutes wrote: »

For me the key runs are - once a week - in your marathon training peak phase ( say six weeks pre taper)

Long run , 20 miles, with a pick up in last 5 to marathon pace,
Tempo run, absolutely vital imo, eg 2 mile warm up, 4 mile at 10k or just over pace per mile, 2 mile down
Steady run 8-10 mile at marathon pace or just over
Do the rest at easy pace

These have knocked lumps off my marathon time 3.26 to 2.47 in 4 yrs so far;)...despite long spells of injury 3/4 months out ..

That's three tough workouts. Do you do reps or intervals at all? And do you think the intensity could be linked to the injuries?

brutes

Yes, but its only what i would do for 5-6 weeks period prior to a marathon after long base buildup miles, 75-80 at least , weekly. Just wanted to get a result from all the training, and it worked ( eventually)
In very few programmes does it mention running in training at marathon pace, which i reckon is absolutely crucial, and to do it for a good distance ( hence 8-10mile) .
I think your right about the possibility of injury, think mine are largely structural knee issues and not resting after marathons, but there would be certainly a danger with this training of injury without a solid base, easy runs other days,and rest. But its only for a short period, and its paid off for me and a few of my training buds - and i would certainly be more of a workhorse than naturally talented .
I have had experience of blowing up spectacularly in marathons prior to this aiming for sub 2.50/2.45 and reckon largely due not having the type of training done required at this pace- ie the key runs above - whereas did for Dublin and it paid off.

--amadeus--

Completely agree - at a lower mileage and slower level it's pretty much what i am doing for Rotterdam - seveal 50 - 55 mile weeks followed by a 4 - 6 week set of faster runs; 10 - 16 miles @ PMP, 2 - 4 miles @ Tempo pace mid run and fast finish or predator long runs.

Which program are you using though - P&D and Daniels both strongly recommend PMP running.

Daithi BC

brutes wrote: »

Long run, 20 miles, with a pick up in last 5 to marathon pace,
Tempo run, absolutely vital imo, eg 2 mile warm up, 4 mile at 10k or just over pace per mile, 2 mile down
Steady run 8-10 mile at marathon pace or just over
Do the rest at easy pace

That's pretty much exactly what I did for Dublin last year except I was doing 5*1200m instead of the tempo run, because I was told that was the best way to increase VO2 Max.

Do you reckon the tempo run is more effective? I hope so, because I hate running 1200s, although 4 miles at 10k pace isn't exactly easy either....

cfitz

Daithi BC wrote: »

Do you reckon the tempo run is more effective? I hope so, because I hate running 1200s, although 4 miles at 10k pace isn't exactly easy either....

Is 4 miles at 10k pace considered standard marathon training? How often would you do that session? If I was able to run 4 miles at 10k pace on my own in training, I'd expect to hammer my 10k PB next time I raced it.

shels4ever

cfitz wrote: »

Is 4 miles at 10k pace considered standard marathon training? How often would you do that session? If I was able to run 4 miles at 10k pace on my own in training, I'd expect to hammer my 10k PB next time I raced it.

From what i've been reading my tempo runs will get to 4-5 miles at 10 mile pace not 10k ... just need to figure out what my 10 mile pace is.....

Daithi BC

cfitz wrote: »

Is 4 miles at 10k pace considered standard marathon training? How often would you do that session? If I was able to run 4 miles at 10k pace on my own in training, I'd expect to hammer my 10k PB next time I raced it.

I've just had a look at the Pfitzinger programs, and he's talking about 20-40 minutes at 15km to 20km race pace which sounds a bit more manageable. Not sure how long I'd survive doing 10km race pace runs.