Turkish airliner crashes at Schipol

LiamD

Reports that a Turkish airlines plane crashed short of runway 18R/36L at AMS and broke in 3 pieces. No fire, 135 souls on board. B737-800 was mentioned but not confirmed.

http://www.nu.nl/algemeen/1923104/vliegtuig-neergestort-bij-schiphol.html

Mena

It appears it was on landing and has broken into 3 parts. No other news yet. I hope it's not too bad but by all accounts it sounds very serious.

Sky News

RTE

Picture

Edit: 737-800. "Apparently fewer than half not injured"

Edit 2: May want to merge this with the other thread.

Danbo!

"The aircraft, carrying 135 passengers, split into three parts when it hit the ground next to the runway"

Wonder if it fell short or ran off the side? Fairly light (12mph) winds at schipol today.

*Kol*

Turkish 737 reportedly breaks up at Amsterdam(25Feb09 10:16 GMT) David Kaminski-Morrow, London
Rescuers are reportedly attending the scene of an accident involving a Turkish aircraft at Amsterdam Schiphol.
The aircraft is said to be a Turkish Airlines Boeing 737-800.
Images purportedly from the scene show an aircraft in a field, apparently broken into three sections.
There is no immediate information on passenger numbers or possible casualties.


It seems that 50 people have walked away unhurt from the crash scene.

pclancy

Merged.

Deaths being reported now

big b

pclancy wrote: »

Merged.

Deaths being reported now

Turkish transort minister says no-one killed.
Unofficial Turkish source says 1 killed.

Certainly no fire, still hard to tell if plane came down short or deviated from runway.

elmolesto

Nobody was killed according to the latest report.

big b

Seems the aircraft came down short of the runway.

Now wildly varying reports about casualties, Dutch Tv saying 5 dead, Turkish authorities saying no fatalities, so I'm not posting any more about that until there's some confirmation.

Tabnabs

Lots of pics here:
http://www.nos.nl/nosjournaal/artikelen/2009/2/25/250209_vliegtuig_schiphol.html

vulcan57

Sky news reporting 9 dead including 3 on the flightdeck and more that 50 injured. Odd that this aircraft has a 2 man flightdeck. Dutch anti-terror spokesman says that terrorismis not a factor.

Danbo!

I could be way off here, but does something look wrong with the angle of the flaps in this pic, like they're deployed too far?

(From sky website)

peter1892

vulcan57 wrote: »

Sky news reporting 9 dead including 3 on the flightdeck and more that 50 injured. Odd that this aircraft has a 2 man flightdeck. Dutch anti-terror spokesman says that terrorismis not a factor.

There might have been a crew member on the jumpseat, maybe a training flight, another pilot being carried to Amsterdam to take another flight, lots of possibilities.

highlydebased

Stee wrote: »

I could be way off here, but does something look wrong with the angle of the flaps in this pic, like they're deployed too far?

(From sky website)

It does- but after the crash its very likely they were damaged well passed 40 degrees (the max they can be deployed to in the flight deck)

Danbo!

Neon-Circles wrote: »

It does- but after the crash its very likely they were damaged well passed 40 degrees (the max they can be deployed to in the flight deck)

Thats what I thought, but couldnt figure out why they'd go beyond 40 in the crash, I assumed they'd be pushed back to below 40.. just a thought

bing2385

Does anyone know what might have caused the deaths of the 3 people on the flight deck, which is being reported by the press?

Showing no major signs of damage to the cockpit area, the only thing i can think of is that as the plane came down tail first, then the nose of the plane really hit down hard on the ground with a big impact, and this causing major injuries to the crew - similar to a car accident - the decelleration?

Any one any thoughts?

Very sad that this has happened.
My thoughts and prayers are with all those affected

pclancy

It does look like the plane stalled into the ground with a high angle of attack causing the nose to come down very hard. It looks like they made have lost power and been gliding and then through trying to avoid the motorway and its traffic, lost control and slammed into the field its now lying in. Very lucky there wasnt a fire and more fatalities.

Its been a bad start to 2009 for aviation so far

Foggy43

pclancy wrote: »

Its been a bad start to 2009 for aviation so far

Yes! Only the day before the crew of the Hudson river Airbus were on TV in front of a congressional hearing stressing the point that cutbacks in aviation will make it very unsafe. I was surprised that both pilots were captains but one agreed to step down to first officer to keep his job.

Airbus and Boeing have stated that they expect 50% of aircraft rolled out this year to go into storage due to airlines/operators credit ratings being lowered and no longer being able to purchase them.

We will have to watch out for serious cost cutting exercises by some airlines. It looks as though this Turkish 737 may have ran out of fuel. Far too early to speculate on minimum fuel.

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bing2385

Does anyone know what might have caused the deaths of the 3 people on the flight deck, which is being reported by the press?

I heard that the nose gear shot up through the flight deck floor on impact. Could be complete horse-shyte though?!

pm.

any more info on what caused this ?

Fratton Fred

We had some colleagues over from Amsterdam on Thursday and they were talking about birds, but I would have thought that could be easily established.

vulcan57

Seems that a faulty altimeter may have been toblame for the crash.

http://news.sky.com/skynews/Home/World-News/Turkish-Airlines-Crash-Investigators-Say-Faulty-Altimeter-May-Have-Caused-Accident-As-Nine-Died/Article/200903115234442?lid=ARTICLE_15234442_TurkishAirlinesCrash:InvestigatorsSayFaultyAltimeterMayHaveCausedAccidentAsNineDied&lpos=searchresults

diverdriver

The faulty radio altimeter only contributed to the crash. The failure of the crew to monitor the airspeed caused the crash. I'm sorry to say it was Pilot error. The crew of any aircraft landing on autopilot are supposed to monitor the airspeed among other things. They only reacted when the stall warning went off. By then it was far too late.

Amsterdam

diverdriver wrote: »

I'm sorry to say it was Pilot error.

I would suggest you get in touch with the relevant investigators and let them know, I don't think they are quite sure of that yet.

I've been flying the 800 for a few years and this is the memo we got last night. The latest safety bulletin we've got from Boeing.....

"While the complex investigation is just beginning, certain facts have emerged from work
completed thus far:

- To date, no evidence has been found of bird strike, engine or airframe icing, wake
turbulence or windshear.
- There was adequate fuel on board the airplane during the entire flight.
- Both engines responded normally to throttle inputs during the entire flight.
- The airplane responded normally to flight control inputs throughout the flight."

They also go on to mention...

"The Digital Flight Data Recorder (DFDR) data indicates that the crew was using autopilot B
and the autothrottle for an ILS (Instrument Landing System) approach to runway 18R at
Amsterdam Schiphol airport. During the approach, the right Low Range Radio Altimeter
(LRRA) was providing accurate data and the left LRRA was providing an erroneous reading
of -7 to -8 feet. When descending through approximately 2000 feet the autothrottle, which
uses the left radio altimeter data, transitioned to landing flare mode and retarded the throttles
to the idle stop."

Now to me that indicates something is not quite right with the aircraft. Flare mode should not arm on a single autopilot approach. Nor should you see "Retard" on the FMA at 200ft.

It's very easy to blame it on pilot error when highly publicised accidents like this occur or infact any accident. You never know, it may possibly be pilot error, but it is rarely as simple as that. But I would personally wait untill a more experienced, better educated individual(s) publishes a final report stating the probably cause before I would starting pointing fingers.

wittymoniker

don't think your company would be too happy with you pubicly posting internal memos.

Amsterdam

Quoting a public document? Best start dusting off my CV......

wittymoniker

thought safety bulletins from Boeing were posted to Boeing owners and operators but maybe i need to renew my subscription.

Celtic Mech

wittymoniker wrote: »

don't think your company would be too happy with you pubicly posting internal memos.

Wouldnt be too worried as the Flight international article was just about a carbon copy of the Bulletin anyway!!

Turbulent Bill

Amsterdam wrote: »

They also go on to mention...

"The Digital Flight Data Recorder (DFDR) data indicates that the crew was using autopilot B
and the autothrottle for an ILS (Instrument Landing System) approach to runway 18R at
Amsterdam Schiphol airport. During the approach, the right Low Range Radio Altimeter
(LRRA) was providing accurate data and the left LRRA was providing an erroneous reading
of -7 to -8 feet. When descending through approximately 2000 feet the autothrottle, which
uses the left radio altimeter data, transitioned to landing flare mode and retarded the throttles
to the idle stop."

Now to me that indicates something is not quite right with the aircraft. Flare mode should not arm on a single autopilot approach. Nor should you see "Retard" on the FMA at 200ft.

It's very easy to blame it on pilot error when highly publicised accidents like this occur or infact any accident. You never know, it may possibly be pilot error, but it is rarely as simple as that. But I would personally wait untill a more experienced, better educated individual(s) publishes a final report stating the probably cause before I would starting pointing fingers.

Thanks for posting this. As an outsider this seems like very poor system design - why would the autothrottle only use the left LRRA as an input, especially as both LRRAs had wildly different readings? I'd assume two LRRAs are fitted for redundancy, but only using the reading of one defeats the purpose. At the very least a warning should be flagged to the pilots that there is a discrepency in the readings.

Agree on waiting for the outcome of the investigation.

diverdriver

When descending through approximately 2000 feet the autothrottle, which
uses the left radio altimeter data, transitioned to landing flare mode and retarded the throttles
to the idle stop."

Clearly many accidents is a combination of factors both technical and human. But the question I would ask you is this. As a 738 pilot, what would you do if you noticed the throttles went to idle at 2000 feet on the approach and the airspeed dropped below Vref?

As a pilot myself. I don't like to see pilot error ascribed as the sole reason for an accident. But it's hard to dismiss the idea that in this case it was the final reason for the accident.

The real mystery is why they didn't react until it was too late.

Board Walker

this morning in schipol they were installing electric blinds on the windows looking out airside! they were testing them and ya could not see a thing!

AlekSmart

These Dutchmen don`t hang about,do they