Saab on the brink?

bazz26

I know this was discussed before but it looks like Saab's worst nightmare is being realised. Doesn't look good for them at all, GM have thrown them to the lions.

http://news.sky.com/skynews/Home/Business/Recession-Car-Maker-Saab-Applies-For-Reconstruction-After-Being-Abandoned-by-General-Motors/Article/200902315226349?lpos=Business_Carousel_Region_2&lid=ARTICLE_15226349_Recession%3A_Car_Maker_Saab_Applies_For_Reconstruction_After_Being_Abandoned_by_General_Motors

More here:
http://www.autocar.co.uk/blogs/anythinggoes/archive/2009/02/19/saab-struggles-to-stay-airborn.aspx

I always liked pre GM Saabs, my uncle had an old 900 turbo when I was young and I always had a soft spot for the car. I hope some very rich independant investors buy the company and return them to their former pre GM clone glory days.

mike65

Unless the Swedish government effectively nationalise them I don't see how they can survive.

sk8board

what would that mean for the world-wide network of dealers?

Cosmo K

The same it meant for the Rover Dealer Network

Drummerboy08

It would be the same as what happened with Rover i would imagine. The Saab dealers can either operate un-franchised, or try to take on a new franchise. The odd one will still stock Saab parts.

Sleipnir

Can't have a Sabb dealership without Sabb.

samsemtex

GM are a scourge on the car industry. They did nothing but damage Saab since they took them over and its a pity because Saab just realeased their first quality car in years last year, the turbo x.

sk8board

Its a pity, I like Saab's, always have. (I like Volvo too, I'm wierd like that).

I think there will still be Saabs manufactured, but where and in what numbers is in serious doubt.
The Swedish Gov might take them back under their wing for a while, get some half-decent cars out ...
would be a shame to see them disappear; they're a million miles from Rover.

crocro

Very cheap second hand saabs are around for sale now.

http://www.economist.com/business/displaystory.cfm?story_id=13024667

The Economist wrote:

The only reason GM kept the company so long, said Mr Lutz, was that it loved the marque and the cars. But in truth the relationship has never been happy. GM once saw Saab as a potential rival to BMW. But whereas BMWs became the default choice of striving young professionals in the 1990s, buying a Saab was a statement of eccentric individualism—something utterly alien to GM’s corporate culture. GM constantly tried to force its often stodgily conventional engineering on Saab in an effort to save money, while Saab, just as stubbornly, attempted to preserve what was different about its cars, such as putting the ignition on the floor by the gearbox. Not surprisingly, the results pleased neither GM’s beancounters nor Saab enthusiasts.

Saab’s idiosyncratic way of doing things, and its powerful unions, make it unusually difficult to sell. It has a strong brand, but one that is neither truly premium nor, these days, sporting. It was once a pioneer of turbocharging, but its technology no longer stands out.

samsemtex

Well the thing is that while GM owned Saab they came out with what 2 new cars in 10 years? And the 9-3 was basically a Vectra with a (barely) saab body over it. They finally give saab some freedom and autonomy, with 3 new cars coming out in the next year and the recent launch of what is supposed to be a fantastic XWD system and then they just cut them off before they launch them. With the way GM "ran" Saab its amazing they are still around at all.

If they survive it could be the best thing that has ever happened to Saab. GM didnt know how to control a brand like Saab.

unkel

bazz26 wrote: »

I hope some very rich independant investors buy the company and return them to their former pre GM clone glory days.

I hope so too, but I don't think it's realistic.

Maybe another make to be scooped up for half nothing by the Chinese / Indians?

Ferris

I would love to see them survive and bring out a retro 99 or 900 model. A fast, simple, turbo'd car that would be a bit different would sell well imo.

mike65

I did my first driving in a 3 speed column shift 96.

kmick

Its been coming for 15 years. RIP

Surely the Swedish government will save them though?

bazz26

I think the world will be a worse place without smaller "dare to be different" motor companies like Saab, Subaru, etc, while these large money pit poorly managed greedy corporations like GM continue to be bailed out.

L-M

I think this is a very true point

The Economist wrote:

But whereas BMWs became the default choice of striving young professionals in the 1990s, buying a Saab was a statement of eccentric individualism

In saying that, any used Saab that i have come across has sold very well. People seem to like them, but no one seems to have the balls to pay for them new.

Also the basic spec (Linear?) Saab 93 with the hubcaps was such a horrible looking car.

BrianD3

Saab has been on a slippery slope for many years. Even before GM got involved, Saab's competitor to BMW and Mercedes was based on a Fiat Croma which was an OK car but not the sort of image that Saab owners would have wanted.

Saab used to brag about the passive safety of their cars, yet the 9000 did poorly when offset tested by Auto Motor & Sport, it did worse than the Nissan Maxima and others. And in the early days of EuroNCAP, the 900 was rated one of the worst cars in its class. So one of Saab's major selling points got hammered as consumers gained access to independent, scientific data rather than having to rely on marketing hype. Volvo was also affected by this.

Add to that the Vectra based 9-5 being sold for many years after it should have been replaced and getting one of the worst facelifts ever seen on any car.

bazz26

And Dame Edna?

unkel

Harsh, but true, BrianD3. The company went wrong long before being taken over by GM

And yeah, the 9-5 is still based on the '89 mark 1 Opel Vectra, isn't it? I understand Saab had very little money to play with under GM, but that's just taking the p1ss imho

Cosmo K

unkel wrote: »

And yeah, the 9-5 is still based on the '89 mark 1 Opel Vectra, isn't it? I understand Saab had very little money to play with under GM, but that's just taking the p1ss imho

Its not that bad;) Its based, as far as I can tell, on the Mark 2 Vectra, the one built between 96-2003

unkel

Nope, just looked it up and the GM2900 platform was first used in the '88 Vectra mk 1. It is still used in the '09 Saab 9-5. Pathetic really. At least the 9-3 moved to the newer Epsilon platform in '03.

unkel

There's a live press conference on right now about plans to go independent :eek:


Linky

unkel

Surely this is good news!

More details here:

Trollhättan. As a result of GM’s strategic review of the global Saab business the Saab Board announced today that it will file for reorganization under a self-managed Swedish court process to create a fully independent business entity that would be sustainable and suitable for investment.

The reorganization is a self-managed, Swedish legal process headed by an independent administrator appointed by the court who will work closely with the Saab management team. As part of the process, Saab will formulate its proposal for reorganization, which will include the concentration of design, engineering and manufacturing in Sweden. This proposal will be presented to creditors within three weeks of the filing. Pending court approval, the reorganization will be executed over a three-month period and will require independent funding to succeed.

dsab

GM have "released" them now, and they are not part of the GM Group anymore.

And now Saab will probably have around 3 months to find private investors into the business. With GM out of the way that might well be possible.

But they can't expect any money from the swedish government. The swedish PM has stated it would be cheaper for the taxpayers if all Saab employees would be unemployed for 6 years then to help Saab out again.

There are strong rumours in Germany that Opel and Saab will go together on their own without GM. It seems that some of the regional German Governments and some private Investors are ready to buy out Opel from GM.

unkel

dsab wrote: »

GM have "released" them now, and they are not part of the GM Group anymore.

Apparantly, just before the start of the press conference they played a song called "release me"

kmick

They lost 85750 per employee last year?
http://www.nytimes.com/2009/02/21/business/worldbusiness/21saab.html?ref=business

unkel

I've merged your thread into the existing Saab thread from today, Mena.

Mena

unkel wrote: »

I've merged your thread into the existing Saab thread from today, Mena.

Way too fast for me, I was in the process of deleting it!

Thanks anyway

Thing is, they need funding to pull this all off.... Not great right now.

pburns

Not good news, not bad news IMO...

By that I mean Saab were going nowhere tied to GM. If they're only going to produce cars on outdated, re-badged GM platforms on a shoe-string budget and have all individuality sucked out it's as well off they bite the dust.

I really hope they don't though. I could see myself owning a Saab one day. Give me a modern interpretation of the 900 Turbo and I'll be in the queue.

What grieves me is that I think the Saab 'ethos' or 'brand' (yes, I hate the marketing-speak) is really in-tune with the times IMO. Bimmers, Mercs, Audis, Lexi seem somehow vulgar in these recessionary times, unfashionable almost. If Saab had a range of modern, funky, competitive, good value products I think they'd be much more in tune with the zeitgeist. And technology-wise... turbo-charging small engines, alternative fuels...the Swedes have a great reputation in that regard.

Of course the world-wide situation looks so bad ATM that by the time the upswing comes it may be too late...

Zonda999

unkel wrote: »

Apparantly, just before the start of the press conference they played a song called "release me"

Afaik, they were playing the same song in adverts a couple of years ago. It must have been a hint of what the bosses saw coming, LOL...

I've always liked saabs really, always something interesting about the people who bought them. BTW, anyone know what car the new 9-5 will be based on?

unkel

Zonda999 wrote: »

BTW, anyone know what car the new 9-5 will be based on?

The '88 Vectra

Only kidding. It will be based on the brand new GM Epsilon II platform. The first production car on this platform was the Opel Insignia, the current European car of the year.

Cosmo K

What we learned so from this thread so far, a lot of people like SAAB cars. Unfotuntaly, not enough people actually bought one.

sk8board

Cosmo K wrote: »

What we learned so from this thread so far, a lot of people like SAAB cars. Unfotuntaly, not enough people actually bought one.

hands up here I'm afraid; I love Saab's but would never buy a new one!

unkel

Cosmo K wrote: »

a lot of people like SAAB cars. Unfotuntaly, not enough people actually bought one.

I think it is amazing so many people did keep buying Saabs. When for many years they weren't much more than comfy overpriced not so reliable Vectras that - granted - still looked like Saabs of old. Buyers seemed to be generally unaware of this or perhaps did not want to know. Their brand loyalty was about the best in the car industry. Saab buyers were willing to pay the same executive premium for their mediocre cars as one pays for the Audi / BMW / Merc they were trying so hard to avoid buying

Cicero

Just came back from a Saab dealership getting my 93 fixed... Ouch...really hurt the wallet.....love the cars and would definately buy a another but because of renound depreciation, buying a new Saab is only for corporate fleets with clever accountants...think one of the reasons Saab drivers like their cars is power, comfort, and a luxury brand on a shoestring- although when things go wrong, that shoestring could be false economy

This is where the Saab clubs will come into their own..these are true current and future classic cars ...would hate to see them disappear. ..people seem to either hate or love Audis or BMWs but with Saabs, negative attitudes don't seem to be prevelent...I know top gear call them glorified vauxhalls, but leaving them aside, I think their a great brand and car ..

Feel for all those employed with Saab currently in Ireland and elsewhere...hopefully the news will get better in the coming days/weeks

mumblin deaf ro

I love saabs and would love to buy a 9-3 as my next car. Saab have a new 9-5, 9-3x, 9-4x, 9-1x all more or less ready to go. The epsilon platform has been heavily customised by Saab but the 'vectra in drag' label has hurt it in UK and Ireland in my view. If needs be I think the swedish Govt may need to underwrite loans or something to get it through the next 18 months and so that its ready-to-go product line (long overdue thanks to endless GM procrastination) can get out there.

The key thing is to price the new 9-5 more like a Legacy than a 3 series.

360ts

I used to have an '89 SAAB 900 2.0 16v. An absolutely beautiful car, it wouldn't matter what speed you were going into a bend at, it would just lean over and go around it. I can only imagine what the turbo must have been like.

It would be a pity to see them go. Maybe this could be seen as the death of the large conglomerates and the re-emergence of the actual real car firms, not just different badges on the same car.

VolvoMan

mumblin deaf ro wrote: »

The key thing is to price the new 9-5 more like a Legacy than a 3 series.

The 9-5 is more of a rival to cars from a class above. Think E-Class and 5 Series.

unkel

VolvoMan wrote: »

The 9-5 is more of a rival to cars from a class above. Think E-Class and 5 Series.

That didn't really work now, did it? A 20 year old Opel Vectra platform (mediocre at the very best) car competing with the best of the German executive saloons. It is not a rival of those cars at all and it never has been. Thinking like that nearly destroyed all Saab ever was about imho. And on that note:

360ts wrote: »

Maybe this could be seen as the death of the large conglomerates and the re-emergence of the actual real car firms, not just different badges on the same car.

I'd really like to think so. GM slowly strangled Saab and I'm confident the old Saab blood is still there within the company. Whether that's enough to give it a viable future as an independent real car firm, I don't know. I can only hope it will.

VolvoMan

unkel wrote: »

That didn't really work now, did it? A 20 year old Opel Vectra platform (mediocre at the very best) car competing with the best of the German executive saloons. It is not a rival of those cars at all and it never has been. Thinking like that nearly destroyed all Saab ever was about imho. And on that note

It was OK back in 1997, definitely a rival at least for the likes of the Audi A6 of the time. It was just unfortunate that it had accomplished rivals such as the the E39 5 Series. I quite liked it when it was launched.

DRIVEN

I think peoples fondness for Saab is a case of living in the past and reminiscing over the classic 900. Sentimentally and all that. We can all have a soft spot for cool cars from our youth or childhood, they have an aura about them. But that era in Saab's history was more or less two decades ago and more.

I cannot see how Saab would have any future in today's marketplace as an independent. If BMW cannot make a go of Rover or Ford several others, what chance has a company without continuous investment, of ever recapturing past glories and offering something truly modern. Alliances or joint ventures don't really work either, as it leads to badge engineering of sorts. Ideal for mass-market or more mainstream cars, but doesn't quite cut it at the premium end of the market. And the people who traditionally bought Saab's wanted something individual, otherwise they would have got a BMW or Audi by default. They do not want another manufacturers car with just cosmetic add-ons.

IMO, it would take manufacturers like say VAG or Toyota to offer much hope and and even they are finding life tough at the moment. At least they understand the premium end of the market and wouldn't underinvest to the extent others have in the past, and also have better economies of scale. Pity someone like Porsche wouldn't take them on, now that would be interesting.

Cosmo K

DRIVEN wrote: »

Pity someone like Porsche wouldn't take them on, now that would be interesting.

Porsche just took over VW, that will keep them busy for a while.....