Opinions Please - Paying for Service Station Facilities

Bandara

Morning all,

Any opinions welcome.

What is your opinion of paying for the use of the airlines in Petrol Stations?

Before you starting jumping up and down about air being free etc etc my reasons for asking as becuase air is not free at all.

Last year in one site alone I spent over €2200 in replacing air gauge that have all been damaged by the public through abuse and not having any respect about the equipment. The most common cause would be people filling their tyre up with air and then throwing the guage high through the air back to the place they got it (despite it being about 10ft away and the cable having a self retracting motor on it). An air guage like all accurate equipment cannot cope with getting smashed off the concrete and it ends up breaking.

So I have to pay close to €180 to have it replaced. This happened a total of 13 times last year.

To date this year it was ruined by customers twice in January and again yesterday, so we are on €540 so far this year and its half way through Feb.

So I've two options, either complete remove all services from the garages, or charge to use the facility to cover the expense of providing 'free air'.

I'm in no way going to introduce a charge in order to profit off it, I'm talking about maybe 20 cents or something and a sign explaining why there is a charge in the hope people will realise that it is not something to be abused.

Thanks for any input.

p.s. As an aside Tesco will be charging 50c a minute (:eek:) for air from about June time this year.

-Chris-

Me personally, I'd pay to use the hoover, but not for the air (and I don't know why, it's just a "prejudice" in my head).

I don't know if many people will pay to use the air, so I would think that by charging people for air you're essentially dissuading them from using the facility at all, and if that's the result then you may as well remove the facility alltoghether.

Do you feel having the air there that you generate any additional business on the back of it?

Drummerboy08

Hammertime wrote: »

What is your opinion of paying for the use of the airlines in Petrol Stations?

I didnt realise that Ryanair flew out of my local Esso..:D

I dont think i'd pay for it either. Anytime i have gone into a garage that charged for air, i'd just drive to the next garage two minutes down the road. Chances are i'd go in and buy something, however small - a drink, crisps, food, even petrol.

You might lose business as a result.

Anan1

How about having very high-quality facilities that are free only to those who buy petrol? I think the sign is a good idea too, i'd have a lot less of a problem with it if the reasoning was explained to me and it was made clear that it was not just profiteering. It would hopefully make people treat the equipment better too.

Bandara

AudiChris wrote: »

Me personally, I'd pay to use the hoover, but not for the air (and I don't know why, it's just a "prejudice" in my head).

I don't know if many people will pay to use the air, so I would think that by charging people for air you're essentially dissuading them from using the facility at all, and if that's the result then you may as well remove the facility alltoghether.

Do you feel having the air there that you generate any additional business on the back of it?

No Chris none whatsoever. And even if they buy fuel its close to worthless the margins are so miniscule on it.

People are pulling up to get fuel and shop stuff and then going to the air as an after thought. Most people who come specifically to get air are drivign to the services area using the airlien and then leaving.

Even if they are generating additional business for me it would need to be close to 11 grand a year to pay for the upkeep of the airline. So thats €30 A DAY in the shop that I need to be gettign as a result of having and airline. I'd imagine its closer to 2 or 3 euro that I'm actually getting.

I fully agree with the concept of paying for air gets people hackles up, I would be the same myself if I didn't understand the reasons behidn it. The way things are on fuel etc its not sustainable for a forecourt operator to keep shelling out €50 a week to give people free air.

Bandara

Drummerboy08 wrote: »

I didnt realise that Ryanair flew out of my local Esso..:D

I dont think i'd pay for it either. Anytime i have gone into a garage that charged for air, i'd just drive to the next garage two minutes down the road. Chances are i'd go in and buy something, however small - a drink, crisps, food, even petrol.

You might lose business as a result.

thanks for the input Drummer, the fact is I think that even if I do lose ten customers a day because of it, I'll actually be better off financially despite that.

but43r

AudiChris wrote: »

Me personally, I'd pay to use the hoover, but not for the air (and I don't know why, it's just a "prejudice" in my head).

I don't know if many people will pay to use the air, so I would think that by charging people for air you're essentially dissuading them from using the facility at all, and if that's the result then you may as well remove the facility alltoghether.

Do you feel having the air there that you generate any additional business on the back of it?

I don't think it's an option removing air unit. I hate whenevere I go to a Service/Filling station and there is no air or water. OP idea about 20c fee sounds reasonable and I don't think the customers would mind if he had a note to explain why is such fee there.

Ferris

Hammertime wrote: »

Last year in one site alone I spent over €2200 in replacing air gauge that have all been damaged by the public through abuse and not having any respect about the equipment.

You probably spend that again on the electricity costs that you are paying. Compressing air is very inefficient with as much as 90% of the energy input turned into heat and 10% into compressed air. That stored air is then subject to use, misuse and usually leaks.

In relation to the air gauge I'd question the costs involved here, who supplies these gauges to you.

Another possible solution in to suspend the gauge on a wire balance and have a reel for the hose. That way the gauge would be pulled away and up once its released.

I believe that having free air brings in customers so I wouldn't want to jeoparadize that, but there are savings and solutions for your problem.

Drummerboy08

Hammertime wrote: »

thanks for the input Drummer, the fact is I think that even if I do lose ten customers a day because of it, I'll actually be better off financially despite that.

Maybe so, but in my experience of service stations, they usually have a good local trade. The one thing you dont want is to get a bad reputation as someone so miserable as to take the "free air" away.

It will only take one oul lad in his Izuzu Trooper with four flat tires to complain about it, and spread the word that your garage is not offering a good service, and they will drive five minutes down the road for their sunday papers.

I may be wrong about your garage having a local trade - it may be on a motorway for all i know, but there is a garage at home in Wexford who has lost alot of business in the last six months or so buy trying to subsidise costs like the air line by adding a cent or so onto petrol. People started to get wind of this and went elsewhere.

You'd be surprised how petty some people can be.

cormie

I'd be the same, I know the local garages which don't charge for air or water and I'd use them, but then again, I'd only use them for fuel as long as there wasn't cheaper around. I think what will bring most business and most profit, regardless of the costs, is cheapest fuel, free air and free water. Especially at the moment. Toilets are handy too

Could you operate a "FREE TOKEN IN SHOP" thing, where instead of paying, they go into the shop and get a free token to use, would mean it's still free and could also get the freeloaders in buying something. If there was a way to prevent people taking the token it'd be good too

Barry walsh

A service station down from me has a thing where you have to place 2 euro in a chain type device to operate the airline and when you put it back in the correct position ie out of the way an so it cant get run over.You get your money back might help cut down on mis-use or damage to the equipment

Drummerboy08

Barry walsh wrote: »

A service station down from me has a thing where you have to place 2 euro in a chain type device to operate the airline and when you put it back in the correct position ie out of the way an so it cant get run over.You get your money back might help cut down on mis-use or damage to the equipment

That sounds like a good idea.

Ferris

Drummerboy08 wrote: »

That sounds like a good idea.

+1 - Best Idea yet, all you need is one of the units off a supermarket trolley and a bit of chain attached to the guage. You'd need a big sign to explain that it is a deposit only however to avoid a reputation for meanness.

Anan1

Drummerboy08 wrote: »

That sounds like a good idea.

+1

EPM

Local garage does the same. It always works...bar the times some little scrote outs a 20c in the back to chance it and it gets stuck:rolleyes:

Stevie Dakota

While I sympathize with the cost incurred I would never pay for air, I would simply find it elsewhere but maybe that is what you want.

It is galling that the manufacturers who know the abuse these things get cannot design one strong enough to withstand it. I recently used one which you dialed in your pressure at the pump, this meant the handpiece was much smaller and lighter and looked very impervious to damage as a result. Seemed like a sensible approach.

Cookie_Monster

Drummerboy08 wrote: »

That sounds like a good idea.

+1 (more)

Also no harm in sticking up a large sign advising people to look after the equipment, maybe detailing cost of replacement and a suggestion that you may need to bringin a charge in future if the "abuse" of the machinery continues. May encourage people to be more careful?

Air hoses come accross as a fairly rugged piece of kir and I'd say most people simply don't realise how fragile they can be.

cormie

Barry walsh wrote: »

A service station down from me has a thing where you have to place 2 euro in a chain type device to operate the airline and when you put it back in the correct position ie out of the way an so it cant get run over.You get your money back might help cut down on mis-use or damage to the equipment

That comibined with my idea could be good, free token with a 2 euro deposit to the shop, brings the customer into the shop which is what he wants and then back in with 2 euro in their hand, they could pick up a pack of chewing gum or something with it:cool:

HashSlinging

Eh of course you generate business through people coming into the garage to use air, you get people on to the forecourt, chances are they'll buy a coffee or newspaper or whatever.

Have you actually sat there for a week and seen how many people drive in use the air and drive off.. personally I always top up my water along with my tyres, and purchase the screen wash in the garage..while in the garage I might buy a paper also... I'm sure if people see you charging for AIR they will give the place a miss.. you guys (the industry) are already making a fortune out of us 10 cent a litre..

The only way I could see this working, is if the garage offer it as a service, whereby you employ someone who fills the car with petrol, cleans the screen and checks the tires, for that you would have to build it into the cost of fuel.

Otherwise people would just pass you and go to the next garage..

VanhireBoys

Its human nature just to throw the lines out of the way. Its like the carwash , Evertime I go it takes me about a minute to unravel the hoses because some donkey with no respect has left them all over the place. They then bust or leak due to this sort of thing. When I finish I leave them tidy.

Its simple manners which people have none of. Id just disconnect the air and water and leave it at that and explain to customers why you done it. I mean 13 times in one year over the heed of donkeys is just ludicrous !

Bandara

Barry walsh wrote: »

A service station down from me has a thing where you have to place 2 euro in a chain type device to operate the airline and when you put it back in the correct position ie out of the way an so it cant get run over.You get your money back might help cut down on mis-use or damage to the equipment

these are great units, but it'll cost about 4 grand to have a new modern unit one installed.

ArphaRima

I agree with Stevie Dakota. Those digital ones seem like the best solution. The valvepiece is just a valve and the pressure readout and switch is automated in the controlbox. Seems like the best solution. It's what I would buy.

"No purchase necessary" tokens might be at the limit of my acceptability.

I will never pay for air. And I will avoid using a petrol station that charges for it. Then again I have a lot of choices where I live. Maybe your customers don't.

I have a local garage that has Air, water, a conveyor wash and decent octane petrol. It costs more than the surrounding stations for pretty much everything, but I still use it. Why? Level of service. I give my car a fortnightly check of air, oil and water etc. Here I can do the lot. And I compensate them with my custom. Fair recompense IMHO.

Bandara

HashSlinging wrote: »

Eh of course you generate business through people coming into the garage to use air, you get people on to the forecourt, chances are they'll buy a coffee or newspaper or whatever.

Have you actually sat there for a week and seen how many people drive in use the air and drive off.. personally I always top up my water along with my tyres, and purchase the screen wash in the garage..while in the garage I might buy a paper also... I'm sure if people see you charging for AIR they will give the place a miss.. you guys (the industry) are already making a fortune out of us 10 cent a litre..

The only way I could see this working, is if the garage offer it as a service, whereby you employ someone who fills the car with petrol, cleans the screen and checks the tires, for that you would have to build it into the cost of fuel.

Otherwise people would just pass you and go to the next garage..

lol, ah i knew I'd get the auld have a pop "sure aren't you making millions on the fuel.."

Actually I make 1.2 cent a litre on fuel, which means that I'll have to sell 5000 litres of fuel to cover the cost of the air line a week. Whcih seeing as the average fuel spend is 15 euro this in turn means that 335 fuel customers a week are required to break even on supplying an airline.

As for supplying someone to do the fuel and services etc its just not possible, €9.13 an hour x 112 hourds a week = €1022.56 in wages a week to save a cost of €2500 a year in airlines. (and the public don;t like to have someone to put fuel in their cars - they get embarrassed and feel obliged to tip and it actually puts them off comign back (wierd as it may sound).

And I do spend long hours watching peoples habits, the vast majority drive in, get air and leave. I'd say about 20% come into the shop.

Ferris

Hammertime wrote: »

these are great units, but it'll cost about 4 grand to have a new modern unit one installed.

4k :eek:!

How much does a shopping trolley, a metal post and a bit of DIY cost.....

Alun

fluffer wrote: »

I give my car a fortnightly check of air, oil and water etc. Here I can do the lot.

I can (and do) do all that in the comfort of my own driveway at home. Tyre pressure gauge, foot pump and an oily rag for the dipstick is all you need. No need for garage facilities for that.

black & white

Hammertime, I was in place last week - Topaz in Thomondgate, Limerick - that solved that problem by using the same system as a supermarket trolly on their air and water hoses. I had to stick in a euro coin to get the hose released and replace it properly to get the euro back.

The locks were welded onto the cabinets housing the equipment and it seemed an easy enough job.

B & W

Gran Hermano

Seems to be a difference between symbol groups selling petrol and
service stations that sell groceries. Personally, I try and use a service
station. If I need air I pop into a garage, check if it's available and free
first, I fill up the tank with petrol, pick up the usual cigs/paper and then
use the air. If there's no air available or free I drive onto the next
service station that offers proper services to motorists. Whilst I do not
expect my local Spar or Centra to provide air/water for motorists I do
expect a service station to do so.

stealthyspeeder

I have my own tyre inflator, cheap as chips, and much more useful if you have a slow puncture!

Also I have used the electric air machine at garages and wound that they have both under and overinflated my tyres when the reading has said it is what it is meant to be! So I would never use one again!

I think garages should provide a tap and a watering can though for the screenwash! that wont cost them much and will bring me into the shop to buy, screenwash, crisps, cigs and other journey accessories!

Stevie Dakota

True, despite using garage pumps I never trust them to be accurate.

Stephen

I never have paid for air, but having done my time as a student working in a petrol station in the past I definately know where you're coming from Hammertime. The place I worked still has the free air and water, but the guage has been smashed on the air line and the handle ripped off the water tap :rolleyes: They leave a few watering cans around the forecourt too, these usually end up being driven over and crushed.

HashSlinging

Hammertime wrote: »

lol, ah i knew I'd get the auld have a pop "sure aren't you making millions on the fuel.."

Actually I make 1.2 cent a litre on fuel, which means that I'll have to sell 5000 litres of fuel to cover the cost of the air line a week. Whcih seeing as the average fuel spend is 15 euro this in turn means that 335 fuel customers a week are required to break even on supplying an airline.

Sorry I wasnt attacking you personally, the industry is making a killing, but seeming that your putting on the "poor mouth" take it this way, you admitted on a post here recently that garages make there most money in a fluctuating market. I dont know if you represent a conglomerate or your independent but I seriously doubt you fear being out of work in the next couple of years..

Can you actually post some evidence to support your claim that you earn 1.2 cent a litre as there was a report on the radio (I'll try to dig up a URL) that "customers" are being over charged by about 10 cent.

Oil is 37 dollars a barrel, how come that isnt reflected in the forecourts..

http://www.rte.ie/business/2009/0216/oil.html

Del2005

Stevie Dakota wrote: »

While I sympathize with the cost incurred I would never pay for air, I would simply find it elsewhere but maybe that is what you want.

It is galling that the manufacturers who know the abuse these things get cannot design one strong enough to withstand it. I recently used one which you dialed in your pressure at the pump, this meant the handpiece was much smaller and lighter and looked very impervious to damage as a result. Seemed like a sensible approach.

The regulators on most air lines are designed for a bit of rough handling, they are mainly used in car garages, but the problem is that they aren't designed to be thrown to the ground and driven over by lazy inconsiderate people who think they are free.

Hammertime it appears from this that you're damned if you do and damned if you don't. Maybe the best option would be to remove the airline/regulator and keep it in the shop. Charge people a €5 deposit and have big notices up at the service area explaining the reason and that the line is in the shop.

It may annoy some people but if it's costing you money what can you do, your out to make a living and if people don't respect your properity you can't be expected to loose money.

pburns

OP, I can see your point, I really can... I used to curse garages that had broken/unreplaced air facilities & would make a point of not giving them custom.

I ended up buying one of those pumps you connect to cig lighter - great little yoke.

Bandara

HashSlinging wrote: »

Sorry I wasnt attacking you personally, the industry is making a killing, but seeming that your putting on the "poor mouth" take it this way, you admitted on a post here recently that garages make there most money in a fluctuating market. I dont know if you represent a conglomerate or your independent but I seriously doubt you fear being out of work in the next couple of years..

Can you actually post some evidence to support your claim that you earn 1.2 cent a litre as there was a report on the radio (I'll try to dig up a URL) that "customers" are being over charged by about 10 cent.

Oil is 37 dollars a barrel, how come that isnt reflected in the forecourts..

http://www.rte.ie/business/2009/0216/oil.html

The only evidence you have is my word on it I'm afraid, I have no reason to lie or poor mouth anything on a forum where no one knows me.

I've posted here very clearly before the breakdown on fuel and how it works etc.

I care nothing about fuel and to never sell it would be fine by me, however I make a killing when people buy in the shop so fuel is a brilliant way of attracting them in.

I can assure that that there is not one single garage in this country that is making 5 cents a litre on fuel let alone 10cent.

put it this way, in one site alone I sell close to 6 million liters a year, if I was getting ten cents a litre I'd be earning 625 grand from fuel alone, let me assure you very clearly if I was earning this kind of money I'd not be sitting here right now typing this.

The media love hysteria, and what more hysterical than the big bad nasty man makes millions off fuel.

-Chris-

HashSlinging wrote: »

Sorry I wasnt attacking you personally, the industry is making a killing, but seeming that your putting on the "poor mouth" take it this way, you admitted on a post here recently that garages make there most money in a fluctuating market. I dont know if you represent a conglomerate or your independent but I seriously doubt you fear being out of work in the next couple of years..

Can you actually post some evidence to support your claim that you earn 1.2 cent a litre as there was a report on the radio (I'll try to dig up a URL) that "customers" are being over charged by about 10 cent.

Oil is 37 dollars a barrel, how come that isnt reflected in the forecourts..

http://www.rte.ie/business/2009/0216/oil.html

FFS, what has this got to do with the OP's original question?
"Can you prove that you only make 1.2c/l?"

Can we not have one thread that doesn't end in a witchhunt against profitable/well-run businesses?

Anan1

AudiChris wrote: »

FFS, what has this got to do with the OP's original question?
"Can you prove that you only make 1.2c/l?"

Can we not have one thread that doesn't end in a witchhunt against profitable/well-run businesses?

To be fair, the OP is complaining about the cost of supplying air to customers.;)

Bandara

Anan1 wrote: »

To be fair, the OP is complaining about the cost of supplying air to customers.;)

No the OP is complaining about facalities being vandalised and damaged thru neglect.

I happily spent about 12 grand installing the service area facility 4 years ago and have no problem maintaining it and providing free services.

But people smashing things up does cause me a problem. As it would you.

Bandara

Oh and btw, Petrol is coming down about 3 cents over the weekend, derv about 2 c

BeardyGit

Hammertime, have a look here:

http://mrvsolutions.com/En/products.html

Canadian company selling trolley type coin locks for CDN$25 a piece....

They can apparently supply plastic tokens or a suitable unit for euro coinage.

I think that's an investment that would quickly pay for itself given your current expense on replacing regulators/inflators/taps etc.

Don't know how many stations you operate, but I'm sure they'd do a small number of units with a reasonable enough postage rate.

Gil

Idleater

Hammertime wrote: »

And I do spend long hours watching peoples habits, the vast majority drive in, get air and leave. I'd say about 20% come into the shop.

How do you know how many of those that do just get air don't come back at some other point in time for fuel?

Yes I agree that 20% of air customers shopping is a small amount, but are you not jeopardising the 80% possible return business?

I know that I generally do one or the other, not both, mainly because the layout of the forecourts do not allow for easy flow from air to fuel or vice versa.

Anan1

Hammertime wrote: »

No the OP is complaining about facalities being vandalised and damaged thru neglect.

I happily spent about 12 grand installing the service area facility 4 years ago and have no problem maintaining it and providing free services.

But people smashing things up does cause me a problem. As it would you.

As I said earlier, I do understand where you're coming from. It's just that, with the best will in the world, I can't square this:

Hammertime wrote: »

I can assure that that there is not one single garage in this country that is making 5 cents a litre on fuel let alone 10cent.

With the variation in prices I see every day. In any case, this is all a bit OT. To answer your question, I think some kind of a refundable deposit when the equipment has been properly put away is the best plan so far. I know it'll cost money to implement, but I don't see any of your other options as being sustainable.

HashSlinging

Anyway what about putting some signs up to remind people to return the air pumps, and tell them that there reg number is being recorded if they are vandalised etc, or relocating them to a more viewable location. Where there operation can be supervised by staff.

black & white

Gil_Dub wrote: »

Hammertime, have a look here:

http://mrvsolutions.com/En/products.html

Canadian company selling trolley type coin locks for CDN$25 a piece....

They can apparently supply plastic tokens or a suitable unit for euro coinage.

I think that's an investment that would quickly pay for itself given your current expense on replacing regulators/inflators/taps etc.

Don't know how many stations you operate, but I'm sure they'd do a small number of units with a reasonable enough postage rate.

Gil

Hammertime, that's very similar to what I saw. If you want, I'll take a pic next week when I'm in there again and send it on to you.

galwaytt

Anan1 wrote: »

To be fair, the OP is complaining about the cost of supplying air to customers.;)

no, to be really fair, he's asking what we THINK of paying for services. The cost of supplying the air is - rightly - shown as a reason for the posing of the question


Anyhoo, my .02c ....... first, I find the vast majority of gauges on forecourts are broken or faulty, if not downright illegible. Most of it is down to abuse - not necessarily malicious, but it is a side-effect. The real question is why are the units being broken ? Here's the main reasons:

1. poor quality gauges
2. poorly maintained air equipment
3. poorly designed air equipment
4. poorly located air equipment

Poor quality gauges - there's only one answer. Btw, wrt the digital ones, where you just have a hose and stem connector, there is an issue: for a start the stem connector on these is generally, very very poor in quality. And, by dint of it being smaller/lighter - it's even easier to get damage by driving over it..........rendering the entire unit useless.

Poorly maintained equipment: the vast majority of s/stn staff don't know anything about the equipment - this can only lead to things going wrong, and then staying wrong. This also leads to increased costs as there is no preventative maintenance.

Poorly designed equipment. Most professional tyre equipment is exactly that - for use by people who know how to use them. Issues of valve stem presentation on wheels, from car wheels to vans to trucks to motorcycles to trailers, all differ, and quite often the std PCL gauge on forecourts WON'T do all those, so people are inclined to force/strain stuff, just to get air in. Self retracting air reels are an unmitigated disaster: between coils that won't retract (so hose stays out and hose/gauge gets driven over...), that are too strong (for ladies) to pull out, or the ratchet is broken and won't stay extended, without putting your foot on the house, to keep it in position, and when you're finished it 'flies back'..........so damaging the hose, connector.....and gauge !!

Poorly located - I actually think this is one of the biggest problems. Traditionally, the unit is on a pillar/wall etc, and you present your car to it, end-on. Now, I've checked, and none of my vehicles have wheels on that side ( ), and those that have exposed wheels ('bikes)......the valve is still only accessible from .....the side :P So why isn't the pump.......to the side.
So what happens now is, you pull up, drag the line/hose to do the front wheels, and then convolutedly drag the hose to the rear - usually taking paint off the car in the process - so you end up forcing the hose, manipulating the gauge, and pumping at the same time. On a Sunday. In your good clothes. Once finished - if it worked - yes, a lot of the time the gauge/hose/etc gets flung/scooped/dragged to somewhere near where it's supposed to be. It's just too much like hard work, for most people. Which is probably why most people don't bother to check their tyres in the first place......

So, my solution is - two gauges, one each side of the vehicle -only one compressor and some extra pipe involved, but the individual hoses can actually be shorter.........and so less likely to be exposed, driven over, etc.

As for free/chargeable........mmm, I'd have to go with the f.o.c. I'm afraid, as, quite apart from anything else, I'd never have the right change on me. The shopping-cart trolley token thing, I think is a good idea. Realisically, the cost of all this has to be added to the overheads of the station - whether that's the milk/bread/coke - you can't add it to the petrol by dint of the fact that people are hawks, and will spot a .1c increase from 50 paces !!


[Edit] ok, if you reverse in an SUV with spare on the rear door the std location is perfect........ sigh........[/edit]

jame5_b

Heres what the petrol station uses down the road from me and I think its fairly effective as its always working when i go to use it.

Bandara

jame5_b wrote: »

Heres what the petrol station uses down the road from me and I think its fairly effective as its always working when i go to use it.

Thanks brillaint thanks very much James really appreciated. That solves my problem completely. thanks to everyone for their opinions etc.

AND ITS STILL FREE AIR FOR ALL !!!!!!!

:P

Cookie_Monster

Hammertime wrote: »

Oh and btw, Petrol is coming down about 3 cents over the weekend, derv about 2 c

I'd like to believe that but since it has already gone up by 4c since monday I somehow doubt that'll happen in the local

jame5_b wrote: »

Heres what the petrol station uses down the road from me and I think its fairly effective as its always working when i go to use it.

Stolen off some supermarket trolley by the looks of it:D

cormie

Hammertime wrote: »

Thanks brillaint thanks very much James really appreciated. That solves my problem completely. thanks to everyone for their opinions etc.

AND ITS STILL FREE AIR FOR ALL !!!!!!!

:P

except you

Cookie_Monster

cormie wrote: »

except you

Zing!!

:D