Guns in the home ????

alibabba

After what happened in Turloughmore at the weekend, reports on the radio this morning of a girl out cleaning the windows of her house yesterday in Corrundulla, a stranger came into the house, dragged her inside and raped her.
She rang partner, who with a few friends, found the bloke and beat him to a whisker of his death.

biko

And you want guns now?
Links to the crime?

Das Kitty

alibabba wrote: »

After what happened in Turloughmore at the weekend, reports on the radio this morning of a girl out cleaning the windows of her house yesterday in Corrundulla, a stranger came into the house, dragged her inside and raped her.
She rang partner, who with a few friends, found the bloke and beat him to a whisker of his death.

So what's your point then?

That we should be allowed to have guns in our homes so that yer man would have been killed rather than beaten or what?

:rolleyes:

alibabba

Das Kitty wrote: »

So what's your point then?

That we should be allowed to have guns in our homes so that yer man would have been killed rather than beaten or what?

:rolleyes:

What do we do to protect ourselves from b**tards like this ?

Das Kitty

Das Kitty wrote: »

So what's your point then?

That we should be allowed to have guns in our homes so that yer man would have been killed rather than beaten or what?

:rolleyes:

We are allowed to have guns in our homes you just have to get a license and its not a problem if you live out the country.

I wouldnt have a problem having a few shots at the man in question if the story is true or the men who robbed the house in turloghmore. Tying up small children, well I wouldnt think twice about letting them have it.

Criminals get too much respect in this country, they are dirt and should be treated as such.

Das Kitty

There's a bloody Judicial system in this country for a reason you know.

Who's to say that yer wan wasn't just making it up? Not saying she is but without going through the proper channels of the law it's quite possible yer man was beaten to a bloody pulp for no reason, and in your scenario, he'd be dead.

There is no evidence that having a gun in the house would lessen crimes committed but there's plenty of evidence saying that there's a greater chance a family member will be killed by the bloody thing.

I seriously don't understand how people still assign credence to the notion of the lynch mob.

Dyr

Das Kitty wrote: »

There's a bloody Judicial system in this country for a reason you know.

Unless that reason is to unrape people somehow then its not addressing the issue at hand..

biko

I have looked in the online papers and there is no mention of this crime that I could find. In a place like Galway this would be news.
Link to crime = thread reopened.

Edit: thread opened again after a bit of a think to see if we can have a good discussion anyway. Although it'd probably be better off in Humanities, the Turloughmore attack was here (well, in county) and I'm sure people are worried. Still waiting for confirmation about the alleged rape and beating if anyone has seen or heard anything.

Oh, and please have linky backup for any claims about travellers/ foreigners/ blow-ins/ whatnot committing crimes.

kf1920

I heard about the Corrundulla attack, but am trying to find something online and i can't. I'm up in Dublin, but from the area, and i heard there was a lot of gardaí activity there last night because of it.

As for the Turloughmore incident, Hopefully they'll catch the others

JohnCleary

Gun's are handy to have about the house once they don't fall into the wrong hands

alibabba

biko wrote: »

I have looked in the online papers and there is no mention of this crime that I could find. In a place like Galway this would be news.
Link to crime = thread reopened.

Edit: thread opened again after a bit of a think to see if we can have a good discussion anyway. Although it'd probably be better off in Humanities, the Turloughmore attack was here (well, in county) and I'm sure people are worried. Still waiting for confirmation about the alleged rape and beating if anyone has seen or heard anything.

Oh, and please have linky backup for any claims about travellers/ foreigners/ blow-ins/ whatnot committing crimes.

My Mum works with a woman who lives next door to the crime scene.

JohnCleary

Das Kitty wrote: »

Who's to say that yer wan wasn't just making it up? Not saying she is but without going through the proper channels of the law it's quite possible yer man was beaten to a bloody pulp for no reason, and in your scenario, he'd be dead.

Erm, no.

If she had a gun, but she made the story up, well, eh, the criminal wouldn't have been there in the first place, hence wouldn't have been shot hence wouldn't be dead

Zing :pac:

Kazooie

I live in corrandulla and haven't heard this yet. Granted I'm in work and haven't been talkin to anyone but should do when I get home if it's true.

inisboffin

Ok, from the details the OP mentioned. The guy was beaten *after* the rape.
If the woman was surprised and dragged inside, then she likely had no time to go get a gun (which, if kids in the house, wouldn't be stored loaded anyway).

Having a gun wouldn't necessarily have helped the woman at all, in fact, it could have added murder to the original crime if the intruder wrestled the gun off her. All it would have done let the people who came kill him in one shot instead of beating the living daylights out of him. I imagine he'll remember the beating in jail. Sentencing in this country needs to be harsher for violent sexual crimes thouugh, it seems to take 3 strikes before they're taken seriously:mad:

WooPeeA

JohnCleary wrote: »

Gun's are handy to have about the house once they don't fall into the wrong hands

If someone want to kill, he will kill with a hands, knife or any other method. Guns don't increase crimes.

85% of victims killed by guns are members of family or friends of the killer. Very similar statistics accord to all other killing crimes.

The problem in Ireland is not no right to carry a gun, but sick mentality of the government who refuse to give people right to protect themselves (no teasers, gas, no nothing).

"Call the cops" the say.

I wonder if they'd say the same if they saw a killer with ax in his hands in the house, right in the front of them and their family.

biko

A problem is that an defensive weapon can easily be turned into an offensive weapon.

If you have a gun in the house it'll be your first tool of choice if you want to dissuade an intruder, therefore escalating the initial level of violence.

Also a gun can be taken from you in a confrontation and this will increase the likelihood of using it before that can happen, "shoot first and ask questions later" mentality.

The two above is the reason family members get shot. If you walk downstairs carrying a baseball bat or a knife you're less likely to kill someone you love. In my opinion.

the_syco

alibabba wrote: »

What do we do to protect ourselves from b**tards like this ?

Close the front door?

=-=

If I walked into someones house, took their gun, shot them, and walked away, who'd know, if the house was isolated? If she had the gun, and the dude was an ESB meter reader, what's the chances of him not getting shot when he walks up the driveway?

WooPeeA

biko wrote: »

A problem is that an defensive weapon can easily be turned into an offensive weapon.

If you have a gun in the house it'll be your first tool of choice if you want to dissuade an intruder, therefore escalating the initial level of violence.

Also a gun can be taken from you in a confrontation and this will increase the likelihood of using it before that can happen, "shoot first and ask questions later" mentality.

The two above is the reason family members get shot. If you walk downstairs carrying a baseball bat or a knife you're less likely to kill someone you love. In my opinion.

OK, you can lose your weapon etc, but it's to make you equal to your offender in the confrontation. But let's calculate it...

You don't have any weapon, offender doesn't have any too - small chances to win, criminals don't care about your health and life, you do.

You don't have any weapon, offender has one - no chance at all

You have a weapon, he doesn't - he has no chance

You have a weapon, and he does - equal chance


Remember that if weapon is illegal (I'm not saying about the gun, but ANY weapon), only criminals will have one.

Webbs

Remind me again which country spouts the most nonsense about having a gun in the house to protect yourself!

Gun deaths per 100,000 population (for the year indicated):

Homicide

USA (2001) 3.98
Italy (1997) 0.81
Canada (2002) 0.4
Finland (2003) 0.35
Australia (2001) 0.24
France (2001) 0.21
England/Wales (2002) 0.15
Scotland (2002) 0.06
Japan (2002) 0.02

Thats why we shouldnt have guns!

Webbs

Webbs wrote: »

Remind me again which country spouts the most nonsense about having a gun in the house to protect yourself!

Gun deaths per 100,000 population (for the year indicated):

Homicide

USA (2001) 3.98
Italy (1997) 0.81
Canada (2002) 0.4
Finland (2003) 0.35
Australia (2001) 0.24
France (2001) 0.21
England/Wales (2002) 0.15
Scotland (2002) 0.06
Japan (2002) 0.02

Thats why we shouldnt have guns!

Why do people on here appear to think guns are illegal.

As I said before it not very difficult to get a gun license. A lot of people I know have guns(most are farms though) but not just shotguns, rifles with telescopic sights and a cross bow(licensed). My grandad always used to have two shotguns as well.

WooPeeA

Webbs wrote: »

Remind me again which country spouts the most nonsense about having a gun in the house to protect yourself!

Gun deaths per 100,000 population (for the year indicated):

Homicide

USA (2001) 3.98
Italy (1997) 0.81
Canada (2002) 0.4
Finland (2003) 0.35
Australia (2001) 0.24
France (2001) 0.21
England/Wales (2002) 0.15
Scotland (2002) 0.06
Japan (2002) 0.02

Thats why we shouldnt have guns!

You forgot to mention that there's less crimes with use of knife in the places that give you the right to carry a gun.

It's about mentality. We, Europeans are civilized people. Look at Finland (32% have a gun) or Switzerland where gun owning is easy and popular and then look at the crime rates there.

Your argument doesn't work to me.

Webbs

WooPeeA wrote: »

You forgot to mention that there's less crimes with use of knife in the places that gives you the right to carry a gun.

Look at Finland (32% have a gun) or Switzerland where gun owning is easy and popular and then look at the crime rates there.

Your argument doesn't work to me.

Oh so thats ok then that we get shot to do death rather than stabbed.

Gun ownership in Switzerland is high because they have National service and you take your gun home with you, strange but there you go! The Swiss psyche is very different from most other countries so they are a bit of an anomaly

Webbs

Atlas Careful Crucifix wrote: »

Why do people on here appear to think guns are illegal.

As I said before it not very difficult to get a gun license. A lot of people I know have guns(most are farms though) but not just shotguns, rifles with telescopic sights and a cross bow(licensed). My grandad always used to have two shotguns as well.

I didnt say that guns were illegal, getting a gun (shotgun etc) isnt difficult in lots of countries as long as you apply through the guards and usual;y have to give a genuine reason (sporting, vermin control etc).

I dont think there is anything wrong with gun ownership as it stands, but the thought of easy availability of guns to the general population like in the US is just wrong.

This whole lynch mob, shoot to protect my property thing is a frightening right wing reactionary stance

WooPeeA

Webbs wrote: »

Oh so thats ok then that we get shot to do death rather than stabbed.

Is it not the same? In my opinion it's even less brutal.

Xiney

In no western country are guns less regulated than in the US.


I don't see it as helping their crime rate, particularly.

Das Kitty

WooPeeA wrote: »

85% of victims killed by guns are members of family or friends of the killer. Very similar statistics accord to all other killing crimes.

And those similar statistics are??

Any source?

Das Kitty

JohnCleary wrote: »

Erm, no.

If she had a gun, but she made the story up, well, eh, the criminal wouldn't have been there in the first place, hence wouldn't have been shot hence wouldn't be dead

Zing :pac:

So you mean that someone being somewhere means that they're going to rape someone?

This could be useful in my research into an anti-chugger device...

JohnCleary

Das Kitty wrote: »

So you mean that someone being somewhere means that they're going to rape someone?

This could be useful in my research into an anti-chugger device...

No problem. My consultancy fee is €10,000 though - Pay up :pac:

Webbs

WooPeeA wrote: »

OK, you can lose your weapon etc, but it's to make you equal to your offender in the confrontation. But let's calculate it...

You don't have any weapon, offender doesn't have any too - small chances to win, criminals don't care about your health and life, you do.

You don't have any weapon, offender has one - no chance at all

You have a weapon, he doesn't - he has no chance

You have a weapon, and he does - equal chance


Remember that if weapon is illegal (I'm not saying about the gun, but ANY weapon), only criminals will have one.

So think about it from an offenders point of view. If they think that there is a likelihood that there will be a gun in the house/premises then they will make sure they are carrying a gun 'just in case', this tit for tat escalation just doesnt work, where does it end? It will end up with moving from shotguns to semi automatic to automatic weapons just like the US

Dyr

biko wrote: »

If you have a gun in the house it'll be your first tool of choice if you want to dissuade an intruder

Flawless logic, bravo

Mrs OBumble

WooPeeA wrote: »

You have a weapon, and he does - equal chance

Only if you and s/he are equally skilled at using that weapon,and you keep it in an equal state of readiness.

Keeping a loaded gun in an accessible place in a house with children or anyone with a mental illness (1 in 4 at some time in their lives) or intellectual disability would cause far more injuries than crime does.

Also, I'd hazard guess that your average householder is less skilled with pretty much any weapon (gun, knife, whatever) than your average criminal. Especially the ones who've been to criminal-university (aka prison), so had lots of free time to pick up handy tips.

Mrs OBumble

JohnCleary wrote: »

Erm, no.

If she had a gun, but she made the story up, well, eh, the criminal wouldn't have been there in the first place, hence wouldn't have been shot hence wouldn't be dead

Zing :pac:

Erm some more .. no again.

Scenario: girlfriend is feeling a bit naughty/frustrated/drunk/whatever and fools around with some other lad. Things happen between them, to which she's a consenting party at the time. Then boyfriend comes home with flowers to patch everything up. Or maybe he just finds out later. Either way, what are the chances that she'll lie.

I'd like to think that all women are upright citizens and wouldn't do such a thing, but am afraid there are some out there who don't make me proud to be female.

Lockstep

Has anyone here who adovocates guns ever even fired one?

I have with the RDF, and by God the thought of it means I never, ever want one anywhere in my home. Firing guns is a strange experience.
Guns are extremely dangerous weapons and I would never let one be kept in my house.

i've fired a rifle at targets a few times when i was younger, like 15 with a few friends.. but i certainly don't advocate them. no doubt that fatalities would rise with no benefit whatsoever.

i duno, i'd nearly go as far as to say that licenses should be stopped and the culture let die out.. like why do we need them? they just get robbed as happened recently by a gang

ScumLord

I couldn't be let have a gun, I own a few airsoft guns and had to take them out of the house after drunken shenanigans.

I can't imagine the amount of serious shootings there'd be in this country if we had easy access to guns. The fact is the Americans got all their bad habits from us.

galwayrush

I have various weapons in my house, if i think any of my family, or possessions are in danger, i will use them.:mad:

Robbo

I augment my internet tough guy persona by keeping various weapons in the house to indulge my paranoid fantasies.

Lynskey

They're right-Guns dont kill people, bullets do:)

Also, most people ask why would they need a gun license when it's only for use around the home:p

biko

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PdJGcrUk2eE

WooPeeA

Webbs wrote: »

So think about it from an offenders point of view. If they think that there is a likelihood that there will be a gun in the house/premises then they will make sure they are carrying a gun 'just in case', this tit for tat escalation just doesnt work, where does it end? It will end up with moving from shotguns to semi automatic to automatic weapons just like the US

Alright, but in confrontation face-to-face weaker people and women have no chance to survive. If they had a gun it would be more likely fifty-fifty.

By the way, I'm not for giving a gun to everyone, I'm for giving it to people who passed medical and psychological tests and have no criminal past.

Teasers, gases and guns that only sounds like a shot should be available for everyone just like in every other country.

WooPeeA

JustMary wrote: »

Also, I'd hazard guess that your average householder is less skilled with pretty much any weapon (gun, knife, whatever) than your average criminal. Especially the ones who've been to criminal-university (aka prison), so had lots of free time to pick up handy tips.

It's very easy to use a gun. You don't have to be skilled, just few basic rules that can be thought in 15 minutes. Of course 15 minutes won't make you perfect shooter but it's enough to protect yourself in my opinion.

Keeping a loaded gun in an accessible place in a house with children or anyone with a mental illness (1 in 4 at some time in their lives) or intellectual disability would cause far more injuries than crime does.

I know many people who carry gun in the house and no one has been shot dead by gun itself. Guns don't shoot itself with no reason, even if you drop it. It happened in the old guns decades ago. The new ones like Glock don't even have any blockades that were essential 20-30 years ago because they are simply safe.

inisboffin

WooPeeA wrote: »

Alright, but in confrontation face-to-face weaker people and women have no chance to survive. If they had a gun it would be more likely fifty-fifty.

:rolleyes:

I'd like you to tell that face to face with my rugby playing neighbour, she'd think differently I warrant!:p

Again guns are not stored loaded in houses with kids, or shouldn't be.
Shotguns are unwieldy - you could fight off an attacker better than fumbling for pellets and THEN gambling some more
Attacks often use the element of surprise (no time to go in, find the pellets, load the shotgun, while rapist number one makes a martini)
If you've a gun, you'd better know how to use it.

WooPeeA

inisboffin wrote: »

Attacks often use the element of surprise (no time to go in, find the pellets, load the shotgun, while rapist number one makes a martini)
If you've a gun, you'd better know how to use it.

Indeed. That's why "you can call the gardai" or "trust your police" explanations had been probably said for the first time by some dumb.

Right to protect yourself and your family is one of the basic rights of free society. I don't want to accord it to the guns, but at least some pepper spray which could give you some minutes to run away.

Unfortunately in Ireland our right to survive during the attack depends on the mood of our offender.

inisboffin

WooPeeA wrote: »

Right to protect yourself and your family is one of the basic rights of free society. I don't want to accord it to the guns, but at least some pepper spray which could give you some minutes to run away..

I agree, I just personally feel that a 'gun culture' will make things worse not better.
I have fired a gun, and it is so scary how easy it is to use once in your hand.
In the heat of the moment (for assailant or victim) the adrenalin is flowing, and it is far easier to squeeze a finger and kill than to do more physically with a weapon. Not saying I wouldn't blow someone away if I walked in on my family being attacked, I probably would! That's what I mean though. It's way easier to kill with a gun.

Webbs

WooPeeA wrote: »

Alright, but in confrontation face-to-face weaker people and women have no chance to survive. If they had a gun it would be more likely fifty-fifty.

By the way, I'm not for giving a gun to everyone, I'm for giving it to people who passed medical and psychological tests and have no criminal past.

Teasers, gases and guns that only sounds like a shot should be available for everyone just like in every other country.

Out of interest how many people in Ireland are killed or badly injured by offenders that are unknown to the victim in a year?
If guns were readily available I would be willing to bet my house that that number would rise a lot as would accidental deaths.
As for having Tasers etc, what other countries have them? I know they are illegal in the UK along with mace etc.

Dyr

inisboffin wrote: »

I have fired a gun, and it is so scary how easy it is to use once in your hand.
In the heat of the moment (for assailant or victim) the adrenalin is flowing,

Most research i've seen would indicate that guns are quite hard to use sucessfully in the heat of the moment when the adrenaline is flowing

masonman

galwayrush wrote: »

I have various weapons in my house, if i think any of my family, or possessions are in danger, i will use them.:mad:

Could Paranoia be classed as a weapon?

Fighting Irish

Das Kitty wrote: »

There's a bloody Judicial system in this country for a reason you know.

Who's to say that yer wan wasn't just making it up? Not saying she is but without going through the proper channels of the law it's quite possible yer man was beaten to a bloody pulp for no reason, and in your scenario, he'd be dead.

There is no evidence that having a gun in the house would lessen crimes committed but there's plenty of evidence saying that there's a greater chance a family member will be killed by the bloody thing.

I seriously don't understand how people still assign credence to the notion of the lynch mob.

I use to think the way you do, but now i'm all for people owning guns to protect themselves at home. If a family member shoots themselves then its their fooking problem, as i've said in another thread we need to protect ourselves and stop protecting the stupid

inisboffin

Bambi wrote: »

Most research i've seen would indicate that guns are quite hard to use sucessfully in the heat of the moment when the adrenaline is flowing

What I meant is that once a gun is in your hand, it is easier to *kill* with it than with another weapon, whether accidentally or not.
I agree that adrenalin causes the senses to overload, so it depends what you mean by 'successfully' I suppose.

Dyr

I beleive that in the states research has shown that knives are more likely cause fatalities than guns, so it depends on what you mean by *easier*

It's probably easier to pull a trigger than to stab someone though, from a mental/moral viewpoint.

masonman

Bambi wrote: »

I beleive that in the states research has shown that knives are more likely cause fatalities than guns

Can you quote the source of this research? not trying to back you into a corner, just interested