Recording Help

thereturn

Hi there. On the advice of posters on this board a few months back I bought a Mackie Onyx Satellite to use in conjunction with garageband on my mac to record electric guitar, bass and vocals. The equipment is good and easy to use which is good for me as I'm new to this.

The recording of the bass and vocals are fine and they sound of good quality. If I record the guitar with low volume it sounds good too. However if I try and increase the volume on the guitar it sounds a bit scratchy/rough the louder it is recorded. I record the guitar by playing guitar through the amp and using mic (Sennheiser e835 dynamic vocal mic) to connect to the mackie. Does anyone know how I can increase the volume of guitar without destroying the sound quality. Is it the mic that is at fault or the Mackie? Because it is only the guitar that sounds poorly with high volume should I invest in a mic for recording guitar? Any help would be greatly appreciated.

madtheory

I'm not 100% certain what you're getting at- it seems too simplistic, but here I go anyway:

The level you record at need not be the level the instrument plays back at in the mix. Have you tried recording the guitar at the level where it sounds good, and then turning up its level for the playback/ mix? If it's not loud enough with the playback level up full, you can 1. try turning everything else down, always a good trick!

2. Put the AU limiter effect on it. Put simply, his will compress it to sound louder without allowing the level to go into the red.

JJV

For a quick fix, I would try out the DI on the Mackie & then experiment with the guitar modelling FX in garage band. I believe Apple have significantly improved the quality of the amps & FX in garage band 09.

Alternatively you need to read up on setting the gain on the Mackie's pre amps, a Shure SM57 is always a safe bet on guitar amps & will cope with loud signals. Check the levels are good going into the interface & then again going into the software.

Hope this helps.

www.jjvernon.com

JJV

Where do you have the mic "looking" & how close is it to the amp?

thereturn

Thanks for the replies. I have a couple of questions for yee. Excuse my ignorance in asking them but all this is new to me.
Madtheory I have tried turning everything else down and recording the guitar at level where it sounds good but when I play this back at the mix with a higher volume it loses some of it's edge when it isn't recorded at a decent level. What is the AU limiter effect?

JJV I have the mic close to the amp (about a foot) and it is pointing straight at the centre of the amp. Is that too close? Also excuse my ignorance but what do you mean when you say you would try out the DI on the mackie? I have experimented with the FX in garageband. For the song I am looking to record I have picked an effect that has a rockier edgier feel. If I pick something softer the sound is cleaner but it doesn't sound how I want it to. It loses some of it's appeal.
Thanks.

JJV

DI is short for direct injection/input. In your situation you would bypass your amp & would plug your guitar lead directly into the combo input on the back of the Onyx interface & then depress the guitar button on the same channel on the front of the interface. This has set the input to "instrument" & it can now cope with guitar, bass, electro-acoustic guitars etc.

Before clever audio interfaces, DI boxes were used to plug electric guitars/basses into mixing desks. The DI box would convert the high impedance, unbalanced signal of a guitar to a balanced, low impedance signal that a mic pre-amp on a desk could accept.

You then add the guitar modelling FX to the DI'd signal. The advantage of this is that you can experiment getting a tone you really like after you have recorded because the FX are not recorded onto the track.

Hope this helps.


www.jjvernon.com

thereturn

JJV wrote: »

DI is short for direct injection/input. In your situation you would bypass your amp & would plug your guitar lead directly into the combo input on the back of the Onyx interface & then depress the guitar button on the same channel on the front of the interface. This has set the input to "instrument" & it can now cope with guitar, bass, electro-acoustic guitars etc.

Before clever audio interfaces, DI boxes were used to plug electric guitars/basses into mixing desks. The DI box would convert the high impedance, unbalanced signal of a guitar to a balanced, low impedance signal that a mic pre-amp on a desk could accept.

You then add the guitar modelling FX to the DI'd signal. The advantage of this is that you can experiment getting a tone you really like after you have recorded because the FX are not recorded onto the track.

Hope this helps.


www.jjvernon.com

Right thanks. I have tried recording that way also. While it allows me to play it a bit louder than through the amp there is a sacrifice as the sound you get off it isn't as good as what it is when you record through the amp for the particular song I am looking to record. Doesn't fit in as well with the bass and vocals as when recorded with the amp.
Will look into getting garageband 09 certainly and might possibly invest in that Shure you recommended.

madtheory

No, you won't solve this problem with a different mic, or a software upgrade. That Sennheiser is a fine mic for guitar amps. This is an issue with how you're using Garageband.

You say the mix lost its edge when you adjusted levels. That might happen if you're using something other than the "Default" setting on the master track. I recommend that you do not use any of the presets such as Rock, Hip Hop etc. Most of them will sound different depending on the level going in.

Here's a set up that will give you tracks that are fairly "mastered" sounding:

If you click Master Track, then look under where it says "Reverb" there's a drop down menu underneath that says "None" click that and scroll down to "Audio Unit Effects" and select "AU Peak limiter". Click the pencil icon to adjust its settings. You can adjust the pregain to increase loudness without going in to the red on the main outputs. Keep an eye on the limiting amount- around about -6dB it'll start to sound ugly. Adjust attack and release to taste, err on the side of fast for both.

This is actually a pretty cool limiter!

If that's not your problem, I suggest you post some audio examples for us to diagnose.

JJV

madtheory wrote: »

No, you won't solve this problem with a different mic, or a software upgrade. That Sennheiser is a fine mic for guitar amps. This is an issue with how you're using Garageband.

You say the mix lost its edge when you adjusted levels. That might happen if you're using something other than the "Default" setting on the master track. I recommend that you do not use any of the presets such as Rock, Hip Hop etc. Most of them will sound different depending on the level going in.

Here's a set up that will give you tracks that are fairly "mastered" sounding:

If you click Master Track, then look under where it says "Reverb" there's a drop down menu underneath that says "None" click that and scroll down to "Audio Unit Effects" and select "AU Peak limiter". Click the pencil icon to adjust its settings. You can adjust the pregain to increase loudness without going in to the red on the main outputs. Keep an eye on the limiting amount- around about -6dB it'll start to sound ugly. Adjust attack and release to taste, err on the side of fast for both.

This is actually a pretty cool limiter!

If that's not your problem, I suggest you post some audio examples for us to diagnose.

Why are we talking about mastering & limiting at this stage. Surely that is putting the cart before the horse. At this stage all we are really talking about is tracking. If the levels going in are set correctly with sufficient headroom there is no need for this. I have just checked the spec. on the E835 on the net & I agree on paper it looks like it will turn in a decent performance although I could not see what max SPL it will cope with. The unknowns are the guitar, the amp & the room. That is why I suggested getting rid of 2 of those by DIing & using garage bands modelling.

thereturn

madtheory wrote: »

No, you won't solve this problem with a different mic, or a software upgrade. That Sennheiser is a fine mic for guitar amps. This is an issue with how you're using Garageband.

You say the mix lost its edge when you adjusted levels. That might happen if you're using something other than the "Default" setting on the master track. I recommend that you do not use any of the presets such as Rock, Hip Hop etc. Most of them will sound different depending on the level going in.

Here's a set up that will give you tracks that are fairly "mastered" sounding:

If you click Master Track, then look under where it says "Reverb" there's a drop down menu underneath that says "None" click that and scroll down to "Audio Unit Effects" and select "AU Peak limiter". Click the pencil icon to adjust its settings. You can adjust the pregain to increase loudness without going in to the red on the main outputs. Keep an eye on the limiting amount- around about -6dB it'll start to sound ugly. Adjust attack and release to taste, err on the side of fast for both.

This is actually a pretty cool limiter!

If that's not your problem, I suggest you post some audio examples for us to diagnose.

Right will try that out. Learning a fair bit about it all as I read the above so thanks for the info. Very useful.

thereturn

JJV wrote: »

Why are we talking about mastering & limiting at this stage. Surely that is putting the cart before the horse. At this stage all we are really talking about is tracking. If the levels going in are set correctly with sufficient headroom there is no need for this. I have just checked the spec. on the E835 on the net & I agree on paper it looks like it will turn in a decent performance although I could not see what max SPL it will cope with. The unknowns are the guitar, the amp & the room. That is why I suggested getting rid of 2 of those by DIing & using garage bands modelling.

The SPL for the E835 isn't provided but it is meant to be good. The guitar and amp I am using are both cr-p. Still what I hear when I play it back isn't of the same quality as when I play it when I'm recoring.
I ordered that mic you recommended from thomann about twenty mins ago. Bad idea perhaps? Looks like a nice mic for recording using guitar amps anyway.

thereturn

madtheory wrote: »

No, you won't solve this problem with a different mic, or a software upgrade. That Sennheiser is a fine mic for guitar amps. This is an issue with how you're using Garageband.

You say the mix lost its edge when you adjusted levels. That might happen if you're using something other than the "Default" setting on the master track. I recommend that you do not use any of the presets such as Rock, Hip Hop etc. Most of them will sound different depending on the level going in.

Here's a set up that will give you tracks that are fairly "mastered" sounding:

If you click Master Track, then look under where it says "Reverb" there's a drop down menu underneath that says "None" click that and scroll down to "Audio Unit Effects" and select "AU Peak limiter". Click the pencil icon to adjust its settings. You can adjust the pregain to increase loudness without going in to the red on the main outputs. Keep an eye on the limiting amount- around about -6dB it'll start to sound ugly. Adjust attack and release to taste, err on the side of fast for both.

This is actually a pretty cool limiter!

If that's not your problem, I suggest you post some audio examples for us to diagnose.

Just a couple more questions/queries. As I said before The vocals, bass sound good when recorded. When the guitar is put down it is too quiet but when the gain on it is increased through the mackie the quality deteriorates and the sound becomes scratchy. I am looking to record the guitar loudly without comprimising quality. Merely adjusting levels of bass and vocals doesn't work as song sounds too quiet then and I am looking to give the song to someone else by burning it onto a cd. When I record the guitar just through the mackie it simply doesn't sound as good. By doing the steps you outlined above am I not increasing levels of the guitar, bass and vocals when all I want to increase is the volume of the guitar.
Thanks again for the responses.

madtheory

JJV- it's actually quite difficult to achieve good gain staging in Garageband in the way we would normally be accustomed to!

I'm suggesting the AUlimiter because in Garageband it's pretty much the only way to get the main outs to get to 0dBFS or close to it. There isn't a simple gain plugin available, and the metering is non existent. You don't actually have to use the limiter for limiting, you can just use it for gain. The occasional peak will get squashed pretty transparently. It's a good limiter when used sparingly.

I've used the mic in question many times on guitar cab, so it's not an unknown to me! You seem to be suggesting that the mic itself might be overloading. This is extremely unlikely I think.

thereturn- it's best if you just try what I suggested, rather than trying to figure it out in your head first. See what you think of it. What you're doing is getting the level of each part balanced in relation to each other. Then you're turning everything up by the same amount, so you get a "loud" mix, but with the right internal balance.

When you want the guitar louder, do you turn up the amp, the gain (on the Mackie) or the track level inside Garageband?

Are you happy with the sound coming from the amp, before you mic it up? If you're not, then you can't expect the sound to magically improve when it's recorded.

What are you using to listen to the output of Garageband? Headphones? Speakers? What make/ model?

JJV

Point taken. I'm not overly familiar with GB & am only really looking at the new guitar amps & FX in GB'09 & wondering when they will find their way over to Logic! Didn't realise the limiter was being used to set the gain, but why put it on the master bus rather than insert it on the guitar track?

Sounds to me like GB is not a great programme for beginners if it does not even allow you to set a proper level going in without resorting to limiters & the like. Hardly intuitive or good practice IMO

www.jjvernon.com

thereturn

madtheory wrote: »

JJV- it's actually quite difficult to achieve good gain staging in Garageband in the way we would normally be accustomed to!

I'm suggesting the AUlimiter because in Garageband it's pretty much the only way to get the main outs to get to 0dBFS or close to it. There isn't a simple gain plugin available, and the metering is non existent. You don't actually have to use the limiter for limiting, you can just use it for gain. The occasional peak will get squashed pretty transparently. It's a good limiter when used sparingly.

I've used the mic in question many times on guitar cab, so it's not an unknown to me! You seem to be suggesting that the mic itself might be overloading. This is extremely unlikely I think.

thereturn- it's best if you just try what I suggested, rather than trying to figure it out in your head first. See what you think of it. What you're doing is getting the level of each part balanced in relation to each other. Then you're turning everything up by the same amount, so you get a "loud" mix, but with the right internal balance.

When you want the guitar louder, do you turn up the amp, the gain (on the Mackie) or the track level inside Garageband?

Are you happy with the sound coming from the amp, before you mic it up? If you're not, then you can't expect the sound to magically improve when it's recorded.

What are you using to listen to the output of Garageband? Headphones? Speakers? What make/ model?

Thanks for all your help.
Yes I am happy with sound coming from the amp.
To turn the guitar up louder I have tried all the above by turning guitar itself up, turning the amp up and also the gain on mackie as well as track level on garageband. This has the result of detiorating sound quality where guitar sounds scratchy. Interestingly the sound is scratchy even when the lights on the mackie don't reach the red level. Could this suggest something?

madtheory

If they're in Garageband, they're in Logic.

You put the limiter on the master because you don't want to change the internal balance, you just want to have the mix at a reasonable level. So you set your balance, and the use the Limiter to bring it all up by the same amount, so to speak.

I wouldn't be so quick to knock GB. Pro Tools can have similar gain structure issues, and Reaper too. For knocking together a decent arrangement, GB is fantastic.

There's a communication problem here, because you've described the audio problems in subjective terms. But one man's punchy is another man's distorted mess! If we could hear the mixes, it would be far easier to diagnose the problem.

This all stems from not learning on a real analogue desk. The virtual studio is not condusive to learning routing and gain structure.

fitz

Cause I think this part seems to have been missed by everyone:

thereturn wrote: »

JJV I have the mic close to the amp (about a foot) and it is pointing straight at the centre of the amp.

I'd be putting the mic right up against the grill, maybe an inch away.
A dynamic mic like the E835 is unlikely to give you enough level from a foot away.
When you boost the recorded signal to where it should be in the mix, I'd imagine you're bringing up a whole heap of noise with it, simply because your signal to noise ratio isn't what it should be. Jacking up the amp with the mic in this position probably won't help either.
So, get the mic in closer.

Experiment with the positioning. Try the mic positioned perpendicular to the grill, or at a 45 degree angle. Try it pointed at the centre of the speaker cone, then try it with increasing offset from the centre.

I'd be very surprised if you didn't get better results just by doing this.
Here's an article that you should be able to take something from. Obviously this is just one persons opinion/take on recording amps, but it's a decent overview on conventional methods:
http://www.barryrudolph.com/utilities/guitars.html

madtheory

Good point! Haha

So thereturn, when you said the guitar sounded scratchy, it appears that you mean that it has too much room tone. An audio example would've shown that up. Or if I hadn't sped read your posts I'd have copped it

thereturn

fitz wrote: »

Cause I think this part seems to have been missed by everyone:



I'd be putting the mic right up against the grill, maybe an inch away.
A dynamic mic like the E835 is unlikely to give you enough level from a foot away.
When you boost the recorded signal to where it should be in the mix, I'd imagine you're bringing up a whole heap of noise with it, simply because your signal to noise ratio isn't what it should be. Jacking up the amp with the mic in this position probably won't help either.
So, get the mic in closer.

Experiment with the positioning. Try the mic positioned perpendicular to the grill, or at a 45 degree angle. Try it pointed at the centre of the speaker cone, then try it with increasing offset from the centre.

I'd be very surprised if you didn't get better results just by doing this.
Here's an article that you should be able to take something from. Obviously this is just one persons opinion/take on recording amps, but it's a decent overview on conventional methods:
http://www.barryrudolph.com/utilities/guitars.html

Will do the above thanks. Have tried it very close to amp before but problems persisted. Your right though in that I have it too far away from the amp anyway. Have never tried it perpendicular so will give that a go anyway. Many thanks for the link.

thereturn

madtheory wrote: »

Good point! Haha

So thereturn, when you said the guitar sounded scratchy, it appears that you mean that it has too much room tone. An audio example would've shown that up. Or if I hadn't sped read your posts I'd have copped it

No I have tried the mic right up against the amp and it sounded scratchy/rough. Hard to describe but the sound isn't clean at all.
Certainly positioning it up against the amp reduces room noise however.

fitz

What way have you had it positioned? Hanging down the front, pointed at the ground? If so, that wouldn't give you the clearest recording of what's coming out of the amp as it's off-axis for the mic.
I reckon you'll definitely see an improvement by trying out the suggestions in my last post. Let us know how you get on.

thereturn

fitz wrote: »

What way have you had it positioned? Hanging down the front, pointed at the ground? If so, that wouldn't give you the clearest recording of what's coming out of the amp as it's off-axis for the mic.
I reckon you'll definitely see an improvement by trying out the suggestions in my last post. Let us know how you get on.

Mic is on a mic stand facing directly away from the centre of the amp coming straight at it no more than an inch away.
I'll try out your previous suggestions for sure. Thanks. Finally does the fact that sound becomes very fuzzy/scratchy when lights are only at level two/three and not at red level indicate anything?

fitz

Just make sure it's you position it related to the speaker cone, not just the "front of the amp". If it's cracking without peaking and it doesn't do the same thing while using the same cable etc as when doing vocals, then it's the amp/guitar.

JJV

madtheory wrote: »

If they're in Garageband, they're in Logic.

You put the limiter on the master because you don't want to change the internal balance, you just want to have the mix at a reasonable level. So you set your balance, and the use the Limiter to bring it all up by the same amount, so to speak.

I wouldn't be so quick to knock GB. Pro Tools can have similar gain structure issues, and Reaper too. For knocking together a decent arrangement, GB is fantastic.

There's a communication problem here, because you've described the audio problems in subjective terms. But one man's punchy is another man's distorted mess! If we could hear the mixes, it would be far easier to diagnose the problem.

This all stems from not learning on a real analogue desk. The virtual studio is not condusive to learning routing and gain structure.

Sorry, I have to take exception to some of your points. The new amp models & FX introduced in GB '09 are not in the latest release of Logic 8.02.

Setting the signal level going into Pro Tools & Reaper is relatively straightforward & presents no issues for me or the students that I teach these programmes to. I shall tomorrow go and look at GB & see where the complication arises.

I can see no benefit from having a limiter on the 2 bus when tracking, it will in no way help to increase the level being recorded to the track.

www.jjvernon.com

JJV

Recording in Garage Band 08.

Firstly I set the gain on my mic pre on the audio interface & use the meters on the interface & the interface's software console to ensure the audio signal is not going into the red.

The level here pretty much equates to the levels indicated on a record enabled track in garage band. (ie. If I get an over in my interface's meters, I get an over in GB's meters.) This is the same as in Logic, Pro Tools, Reaper etc.

In my version of GB there is a recording level slider in the track info pane but this is greyed out & I can't use it. The manual says this may or may not be available to you depending on what interface you are using. In my case an RME FF800.

Inserting a limiter on the track & bringing the gain all the way up makes no difference to the level recorded to disc. (It certainly makes a difference when you play back the recorded track!) Same thing if you put a limiter on the master track.

In order to print your effects/processors to track in Logic & Pro Tools you need to input your audio signal to a bus with a limiter on it & then route that bus to an audio track. There appears to be no way to do this in GB.

While this does not help thereturn recording a guitar tone he is happy with, hopefully it clears up some confusion.

www.jjvernon.com

JJV

JJV wrote: »

In order to print your effects/processors to track in Logic & Pro Tools you need to input your audio signal to a bus with a limiter on it & then route that bus to an audio track. There appears to be no way to do this in GB.

For the sake of correctness, I should have written auxiliary input rather than bus in the above.

madtheory

JJV wrote: »

Sorry, I have to take exception to some of your points. The new amp models & FX introduced in GB '09 are not in the latest release of Logic 8.02.

OK, I was making an (incorrect) assumption there.

JJV wrote: »

I can see no benefit from having a limiter on the 2 bus when tracking, it will in no way help to increase the level being recorded to the track.

Clearly. Which is why I keep talking about "internal balance" i.e. the mix. I'm not talking about tracking at all. For students, mixing and routing is not as clear as it is on an actual desk, where you have to physically press a button to route something, get a cable to insert a compressor, etc.