Why aren't people gunning for the Greens?

Red Sleeping Beauty

So the country's in a state of disarray, the unions are threatening strikes, job loses etc. We're on the verge of anarchy so on my O'Clock news what do I see the Green Party doing ?

Some rubbish scheme to get kids to eat fruit and vegetables.
I voted for this shower and I've regretted it ever since.

Whats the point?..shur aren't they harmless..

Soldie

In fairness, they only have 6 seats in government, just how much do you expect them to achieve?

Hellrazer

Its alright sure in the next election they`re going to be the next PD`s.

I voted for them aswell--and Ill never vote for them again.

DundalkDuffman

alan dunne 27 wrote: »

I voted for this shower and I've regretted it ever since.

+1 for me. Every single day I am annoyed with myself for doing it. Not going to make that mistake again.

In fairness, they have been trying to push their agenda..the fact that fianna fail dont listen to them is not down to them...could they actually bring down the government by walking?..(I cant be arsed checking)..And what with the whole financial situation, the green agenda's been forgotten about by everyone...Its all well and good giving out about them now..at this stage they're probably of the viewpoint that they can be more effective in government that in opposition..

I voted for them too by the way, after labour...and ill vote for them again, after labour...If you ever in your life voted for fianna fail, regret that, but leave gormley and the boys alone...they deserve six seats after he burnin mcdowell..

Red Sleeping Beauty

Deleted User wrote: »

In fairness, they have been trying to push their agenda..the fact that fianna fail dont listen to them is not down to them...could they actually bring down the government by walking?..(I cant be arsed checking)..

As far as I know, no they can't just walk at this stage. they've signed a contract that says they're in government with Fianna Fail.

Why they didn't do a deal with Labour is beyond me
Labour, Fine Geys, Greens and inependants would've made the numbers no ?

Hellrazer

Deleted User wrote: »

they deserve six seats after he burnin mcdowell..

If like me and thousands of other voters you voted for them because of their pre-election promises then in all fairness we have the right to call for their heads because I for one cant see that they kept up any of their promises.
They always said they would be the FF police but for some reason they refuse to go against FF even when they disagree with them.

I personally think that the power has gotten to their heads and thats why they wont walk.

They could surely walk regardless of any contract..But yeah, realpolitik and all that...they'll get the odd random piece of pointless legislation passed this way like...and have they been in government before?..shur they'll be in their element..And regarding they megarainbow coalition..shur fianna fail had the independants wrapped up surely..

The_Minister

Loads of people are; read back over the threads of the last while.


I'm not sure what you expect them to do though.

Hellrazer

Hellrazer wrote: »

If like me and thousands of other voters you voted for them because of their pre-election promises then in all fairness we have the right to call for their heads because I for one cant see that they kept up any of their promises.
They always said they would be the FF police but for some reason they refuse to go against FF even when they disagree with them.

I personally think that the power has gotten to their heads and thats why they wont walk.

I would be much more upset about fianna fail outright lying to the electorate before the last two elections, than the greens misconceptions about what they could achieve in power, if i were you..

Hellrazer

Deleted User wrote: »

I would be much more upset about fianna fail outright lying to the electorate before the last two elections, than the greens misconceptions about what they could achieve in power, if i were you..

Dont even get me started on FF :mad::mad:

I never have and never will be a Fianna Fail supporter.

I voted FG,Labour and Greens in that order in the hope of getting FF out of government and then the Greens go into coalition with them.That really pi$$ed me off.

Grudaire

alan dunne 27 wrote: »

As far as I know, no they can't just walk at this stage. they've signed a contract that says they're in government with Fianna Fail.

Why they didn't do a deal with Labour is beyond me
Labour, Fine Geys, Greens and inependants would've made the numbers no ?

... and Sinn Féin I think would have been needed


The fact of the matter is people are gunning for them, but with no real arguments. There was a thread here a while ago about the 'spineless' greens, but no actual arguments about the greens.

The Greens are focusing on their own thing, and they'd have more success if the country had money. As it is they're getting blamed for FF's mistakes

Red Sleeping Beauty

The_Minister wrote: »

Loads of people are; read back over the threads of the last while.


I'm not sure what you expect them to do though.

I had a look for a Green thread, couldn't see one. Link me up ?

What do I expect them to do ? What kind of horribly passive attitude is that ?

No point getting that upset about these things now man..fact of the matter is if things hadn't went tits up, fianna fail would get in again..

Why cant i thank Cliste for his/her insightful comment?

Hellrazer

Deleted User wrote: »

No point getting that upset about these things now man..fact of the matter is if things hadn't went tits up, fianna fail would get in again..

There lies the problem.There is no real alternative to FF.

Red Sleeping Beauty

Deleted User wrote: »

No point getting that upset about these things now man..fact of the matter is if things hadn't went tits up, fianna fail would get in again..

It's that type of apathetic attitude that's led to 3Fianna Fail terms in Government. I know people who voted that shower of rats in the last time on the basis that "Well, times are (were) good , I've a job and plenty a cash and a car etc.... I'm not going to rock the boat now so I'll give FF me vote".

FF and anyone with the slighest hint of knowledge knew that the good times were over - Fianna Fail were elected based on false promises....

Back on topic : So were the Greens.

alan dunne 27

alan dunne 27 wrote: »

It's that type of apathetic attitude that's led to 3Fianna Fail terms in Government. I know people who voted that shower of rats in the last time on the basis that "Well, times are (were) good , I've a job and plenty a cash and a car etc.... I'm not going to rock the boat now so I'll give FF me vote".

FF and anyone with the slighest hint of knowledge knew that the good times were over - Fianna Fail were elected based on false promises....

Back on topic : So were the Greens.

Ok, apathetic now maybe...but last year, before the elction, i was trying my very best to dissuade the masses from voting for them..

Grudaire

His, thank you

alan dunne 27 wrote: »

Back on topic : So were the Greens.

Well if I remember correctly the greens had the most pessimistic budget before the last election.

Hellrazer

alan dunne 27 wrote: »

FF and anyone with the slighest hint of knowledge knew that the good times were over - Fianna Fail were elected based on false promises....

Back on topic : So were the Greens.

Actually I think the reason the Greens were voted in was because the electorate assumed that they would go into coalition with FG/Labour as an alternative to FF.

Didnt happen and thats what annoyed the electorate.

And I would nearly put more (well, ok, the same amount of..)blame at the door of the pds than fianna fail, to tell the truth..

Hellrazer

Hellrazer wrote: »

Actually I think the reason the Greens were voted in was because the electorate assumed that they would go into coalition with FG/Labour as an alternative to FF.

Didnt happen and thats what annoyed the electorate.

You cant assume anything in the cccrrrrazzzyyy world of irish politics man..

Hellrazer

Deleted User wrote: »

You cant assume anything in the cccrrrrazzzyyy world of irish politics man..

Jesus I realise that now.

But back on topic--What do people think the Greens chances are of being re-elected if there was an election in the morning or would I be right in saying like my first post that they will be the next PDs??

Hellrazer

Hellrazer wrote: »

Jesus I realise that now.

But back on topic--What do people think the Greens chances are of being re-elected if there was an election in the morning or would I be right in saying like my first post that they will be the next PDs??

If the greens are the next pds..then who will benefit??..fine gael and labour?...surely they'd need the greens for any coalition of the willing..sinn fein perhaps?...probably also needed for said coalition, but they would surely pick up seats, due to the disgruntled masses roaring and shouting..Id imagine a lot of fianna fail politicians are elected on more personality than policy..they'd probably still pick up those 2nd and 3rd votes..

Red Sleeping Beauty

Deleted User wrote: »

Ok, apathetic now maybe...but last year, before the elction, i was trying my very best to dissuade the masses from voting for them..

Well perhaps withdrawl and disgust is not the same as apathy

Hellrazer wrote: »

Jesus I realise that now.

But back on topic--What do people think the Greens chances are of being re-elected if there was an election in the morning or would I be right in saying like my first post that they will be the next PDs??

I doubt it.

alan dunne 27

alan dunne 27 wrote: »

Well perhaps withdrawl and disgust is not the same as apathy

NO..it is apathy..(sigh)..

kowloon

Soldie wrote: »

In fairness, they only have 6 seats in government, just how much do you expect them to achieve?

They're not going to get people to eat nore fruit and veg, that's for sure.

Grudaire

Hellrazer wrote: »

But back on topic--What do people think the Greens chances are of being re-elected if there was an election in the morning or would I be right in saying like my first post that they will be the next PDs??

initially it'll be like this:


But then people will look at their options seriously - Greens'll do around the same, Labour will win big though

Red Sleeping Beauty

Deleted User wrote: »

NO..it is apathy..(sigh)..

Ah well, irony is the shackles of youth.

Steviemak

Hellrazer wrote: »

.

I voted FG,Labour and Greens in that order in the hope of getting FF out of government and then the Greens go into coalition with them.That really pi$$ed me off.

So you voted for the Greens (3rd or 4th choice - hardly a ringing endorsement) to get FF out of power not on their policies so your criticism is a bit harsh. I believe people that voted Green No. 1 have been a bit more understanding of the huge difficulties they have faced but are trying to move on with their agenda. Hence their poll numbers have held up.

But shur fine gael would be as bad as fianna fail..and in fairness, thank christ enda kenny isn't in charge...the sooner they get rid of him the better(not that id ever vote for them, but he gives me a pain in my face)..

Red Sleeping Beauty

Back on topic :
Do you view the Greens as a seperate party from FF ? As far as I'm concerned , they're in government with them , they can't disagree with them on any issues, by their agreement they've to vote with FF on all matters.

DublinWriter

The Irish Green Party's will-to-power in getting into bed with FF will be the decisive factor in the destruction of their party. They'll be going down the same sink hole as the PDs very, very shortly.

They are a seperate party...because they're in government the government reaches a consensus on what all parties can vote for...Shur look at the initiative to have 150,000 people cycling to work by 2020 announced by fianna fail minister Lenihan last week..surely a green initiative..or the work of a man with a profound understanding of the upcoming energy crisis..

astrofool

I gave everyone a vote (even FF), bar the greens and SF, a useless party, devoid of any plan that will work in the real world, they embarrass themselves daily.

Jamar

I voted for the greens first. I did not expect them to get into government, but I'm in broad agreement with their policies, so voted that way. I voted Lab. second, and figured that my vote was generally against the gov/FF.

I think they are trying to do what they said they would, with success proportional to their national popularity. They went into government at the cost of their leader. I would even say they did it in the best interest of implementing their policies, and even for the greater good of the government.

Next time, I think green voters will mostly vote green. The party has dirtied their hands, but then that's politics.

The angry anti-FFs may move them down the preference order, from 3rd to 4th.

However, the FF voters might move them up from 4th to 3rd.

Grudaire

The problem they have is that if they walked there'd be an even bigger thread slating them now

Scofflaw

Cliste wrote: »

As far as I know, no they can't just walk at this stage. they've signed a contract that says they're in government with Fianna Fail.

Why they didn't do a deal with Labour is beyond me
Labour, Fine Geys, Greens and inependants would've made the numbers no ?

... and Sinn Féin I think would have been needed

Everybody, including the PDs, Beverly Flynn, and Jackie Healy-Rae. Such a rainbow coalition (FG-Lab-GP-SF-PD-Ind) would have had a government majority of 5 - 88 seats.

Assuming FG wouldn't do a deal with SF - and they wouldn't - there was no possibility of a rainbow coalition. Even if it had happened, it would have been extremely unstable.

I vote Green first preference - not to 'get rid of FF' , but to get the Greens into government - and I think they're doing a pretty good job. The backlog of environmental cases taken by the EU Commission against Ireland are being cleared off, for example.

Most of our disillusioned third-or-fourth-preference FF-kicking "supporters" would probably be opposed to actual Green policies in any case - 'mucking about with vegetables', forsooth.

cordially,
Scofflaw

Hellrazer

Steviemak wrote: »

So you voted for the Greens (3rd or 4th choice - hardly a ringing endorsement) to get FF out of power not on their policies so your criticism is a bit harsh.

I voted Greens because it was the assumed alternative at the time and secondly because of the environmental policies which so far havent surfaced.Light bulb ban anyone--even thats been cancelled.

Scofflaw

Hellrazer wrote: »

I voted Greens because it was the assumed alternative at the time and secondly because of the environmental policies which so far havent surfaced.Light bulb ban anyone--even thats been cancelled.

The light bulb ban hasn't been cancelled. It is being introduced as an EU Directive, which means that it will apply Europe-wide. The specifically Irish legislation is therefore being shelved - which is fair enough, since the only reason for keeping it now would be in order to have Gormley's name on it. Instead Gormley is supporting the EU legislation, and networking with other Greens around Europe to ensure support for it.

cordially,
Scofflaw

And shur aren't they running around in the proverbial dark up in the dail anyway..it'd be worse without the lightbulbs..


(Two drums and a cymbal fall off a cliff....)

Grudaire

Hellrazer wrote: »

I voted Greens because it was the assumed alternative at the time and secondly because of the environmental policies which so far havent surfaced.Light bulb ban anyone--even thats been cancelled.

Here's a link to a pdf about the greens first year in government

PDF link

Hellrazer

Cliste wrote: »

Here's a link to a pdf about the greens first year in government

PDF link

Thanks for that Cliste-its an interesting read.Didnt realise that they`d achieved so much in the way of Green Issues.

bmaxi

FF will be loving this. Although I believe the Greens abandoned their principles when they went into government and will be punished accordingly, it wasn't they who were in power when all the shenanigans were going on. FF has to take all the blame for the situation we find ourselves in and the last opinion poll giving them 28% of no. 1 votes is incredible. Imagine, more than one in every four voters would elect them again, we deserve everything we get.

Scofflaw

bmaxi wrote: »

FF will be loving this. Although I believe the Greens abandoned their principles when they went into government and will be punished accordingly, it wasn't they who were in power when all the shenanigans were going on. FF has to take all the blame for the situation we find ourselves in and the last opinion poll giving them 28% of no. 1 votes is incredible. Imagine, more than one in every four voters would elect them again, we deserve everything we get.

It amazes me the way we get people saying "well, party X are FF's mudguard, and we will never vote for them again". The people who say that are usually those who don't vote for either FF (obviously) or FG. That means they will vote for one of the smaller parties.

Small parties, by their nature, can simply wither away and die - it only takes a couple of unlucky campaigns, or a death. They need, at some point, to get into government.

As long as the FF core vote delivers enough seats to make FF the biggest party, then the alternatives are either an FF-led coalition, or a rainbow - and the latter isn't necessarily possible without an SF/FG pairing which simply isn't going to happen this side of reunification - and even then, it would probably just be one of the possible alternatives. As long as FF are the main or only game in town, that means that they will sooner or later get into bed with FF. They have no choice, if they want to see their policies implemented.

So as long as people who oppose FF, but who don't vote FG, are switching their vote from one small party to another, while FF voters continue to vote FF - as they do - then all those voters are achieving is to change FF's partners. Meanwhile, the inevitable criticism of the party that went in with FF takes the spotlight off FF themselves - thereby making the smaller party the mudguard FF needs. It's not FF who turns small parties into mudguards, it's the people who vote ABFF-but-not-FG.

cordially,
Scofflaw

Daroxtar

FF were only delighted to get the greens on board for the simple reason that the greens were going to raise taxes. I'm sure eamonn ryan means well and as a redundant construction worker i welcome his insulation scheme but while there is a possibility of 4000 jobs the reality is that a couple of larger insulation contractors will tie up the contracts with the local councils and then employ foreign lowcost labour to do the work.
forrest gormley onthe other hand has done nothing bar climb a few telephone poles, introduce carbon tax and help destroy the motor industry. i've said before and will repeat- he raises tax but offers nothing in terms of solutions to problems.
slightly off topic but if methane is 20 times more damaging as a greenhouse gas then why not bring in a methane tax for farmers? methane could also be harnessed as a fuel source and while we were at it, the effluent could also be processed as a biomass source. i'm sure sht briquettes would burn ok and plastics etc could be manufactured from it. it could be a new industry for the country. any greens or scientists out there willing to pick up on it?
anyway, i think people are gunning for the govt in general so that includes the greens. and mary hindenburg. if the greens seem to be escaping its just because its not cool or politically correct to have a go at them.

Red Sleeping Beauty

Daroxtar wrote: »

i think people are gunning for the govt in general so that includes the greens. and mary hindenburg. if the greens seem to be escaping its just because its not cool or politically correct to have a go at them.

Excellent

Scofflaw

Daroxtar wrote: »

FF were only delighted to get the greens on board for the simple reason that the greens were going to raise taxes. I'm sure eamonn ryan means well and as a redundant construction worker i welcome his insulation scheme but while there is a possibility of 4000 jobs the reality is that a couple of larger insulation contractors will tie up the contracts with the local councils and then employ foreign lowcost labour to do the work.
forrest gormley onthe other hand has done nothing bar climb a few telephone poles, introduce carbon tax and help destroy the motor industry. i've said before and will repeat- he raises tax but offers nothing in terms of solutions to problems.
slightly off topic but if methane is 20 times more damaging as a greenhouse gas then why not bring in a methane tax for farmers? methane could also be harnessed as a fuel source and while we were at it, the effluent could also be processed as a biomass source. i'm sure sht briquettes would burn ok and plastics etc could be manufactured from it. it could be a new industry for the country. any greens or scientists out there willing to pick up on it?
anyway, i think people are gunning for the govt in general so that includes the greens. and mary hindenburg. if the greens seem to be escaping its just because its not cool or politically correct to have a go at them.

Unfortunately, while it's obvious that agricultural methane (and other farming practices) shouldn't be ignored, the level of political support outside the Green movement for doing so is a good deal less than zero. Them's are, as they say, sacred cows.

cordially,
Scofflaw

Daroxtar

Scofflaw wrote: »

Them's are, as they say, sacred cows.

nice:D.