Public Consultation - Dublin City Council Development Plan 2011-2017

DCC Planning Secretariat

Dublin City Council is starting the preparation of a new City Development Plan. This plan-making process will take two years and will end with the publication of the Dublin City Development Plan 2011-2017. Public displays and wide ranging consultation will take place throughout the two year process and regular updates on what’s happening will be available on www.dublin.ie/devplan and at www.dublincity.ie

During the initial consultation period an Issues Paper (http://www.dublin.ie/devplan/?page_id=73) is produced giving a flavour of the ‘Big Picture’ issues facing the city, in order to stimulate public debate.

A public display of the Issues Paper takes place for a minimum of eight weeks, where submissions are invited from all interested parties (http://www.dublin.ie/devplan/?page_id=29). A series of Public Information Workshops to be held during the consultation period are mapped out here: http://www.dublin.ie/devplan/?p=332

We've signed up with boards.ie to gain informal feedback on the Issues Paper. As the authority behind the process, we cannot engage in active debate but will clarify relevant points. Your opinion matters to us so we'd like to hear your views.

Thanks.

hmmm

Thanks for taking the time to come on here.

One of the issues I have with these sort of development plans is that I get no sense as to who it is will live in this "inclusive, attractive, competitive and safe city". The concepts are abstract (to someone like me who is not a city planner) and it would help to illustrate the ideas by taking some real life examples of city inhabitants and explain how the new plan would improve their city.

The single biggest problem I think with the city and which should be addressed is sprawl. We lack density in the city centre. I don't want to commute from Mullingar in order to get affordable accommodation and I want to live in an apartment close to where the action is. Neither do I want to live in high rise in the suburbs, the high rise plans in docklands and the Liberties are excellent. Increased population density in a controlled manner should help to drive other plans, e.g. mass transit, arts & culture. Sticking up a few random high rise buildings is not my idea of a high density area. I want to be able to easily walk to work, shopping, entertainment and recreational areas.

There are limited parts of Dublin which I believe have a "vista" worthy of preservation. Very limited. The priorities of a living city must be paramount unless we want to see it become a theme village. Already our cities are emptying of young people after 6pm because they are commuting to the suburbs or further afield.

I'm disappointed that the Phoenix Park is not a focal point of city regeneration. It is an utterly under-utilised amenity which most cities would be proud to have. We should consider closing the park to traffic and make it a central part of Dublin family life. High density residental should ring the park.

The big picture issues I see are
i) The flight to the suburbs caused by lack of suitable accommodation in the city centre
ii) The lack of quality accommodation built in the Celtic Tiger years and the mismanagement of same leading to slums developing in the period in question
iii) The lack of efficient public transport. Luas is excellent providing a reliable and good quality service.
iv) The lack of green spaces in the city. Again high-rise would free up more ground space for such amenities
v) Broadband infrastructure has improved but is still not on par with our competitors
vi) Traffic is choking the city centre. Simply banning traffic is not enough as alternatives are not available.
vii) The underdevelopment of the area surrounding O'Connell Bridge and the Parnell Street end of O'Conell Street.

Degsy

Zero Tolerance policing on public drunkeness,intoxication and drug dealing.
There are people openly selling heroin on O'Connel bridge at 8 am with commuters walking past them.
The boardwalk is pretty much out of bounds for everybody except winos and druggies.
This is the CITY CENTRE..its not some ghetto slum tucked away in the suburbs!

Earth Worm Jim

I would like to see a clearer planning proccess in the city centre docklands area.... As it seems to be a little confusing when the DDDA have one plan and DCC have another........ I am looking at lots of empty apartments, abandoned plans, and a total lack of regard for the local communities..

We have consultation after consultation and nothing seems to change, I am all for improvement but not at the detriment of peoples quality of life....

A local school building project has being promised for the last 10 yr and its not even in the planning stages, I have seen the fancy presentations but its looking like it will never be built?? And this is an area expecting an influx of people, probably increasing the local population by a factor or 4 or 5, though still no new school...

jdivision

Congrats to DCC on being proactive in this regard. I think that density is a major issue, also brownfield sites should be encouraged for development. Improved community facilities as a planning gain in major developments and in addition, I think the council should look at the issue of youth centres rather than a creche. It's the 11-17 year olds who have nothing to do who create a significant amount of anti-social behaviour. Every development these days seems to have a creche, I never ever see facilities for young people instead.

MadsL

Well done DCC - I was trying to get this very same thing organised myself (was just checking with the moderators) and I thank you for following up my suggestion at the first consultation meeting (if this wasn't separately suggested elseware)

Can I suggest that this thread be submitted formally as part of the consultation process? - I know that comments garnered here will be anonymous, but could they be included in the submissions do you think?

Anyway, well done for engaging in this manner. Can I just encourage people to go to the meetings too!

MadsL

Come on folks....don't be shy??

godtabh

hmmm wrote: »

Increased population density in a controlled manner should help to drive other plans, e.g. mass transit, arts & culture.

No it shouldn’t. Transport and other infrastructure should be put in place prior to any increased population increase.

If you increase the population without the infrastructure you'll end up with a version of the N4 or N7 during peak periods.

Infrastructure needs to lead development.

John Mason

i would love a decent bus service and a nice ratoath road without potholes the size of my house and may be all the leaking pipes on the ratoath road to be fixed

other then that have nothing to input

hmmm

kearnsr wrote: »

Infrastructure needs to lead development.

What I was saying was that if an area was suitable for high density, it drives the other plans such as infrastructure i.e. there's no point building a metro if you don't plan high density, similarly there's no point planning high density if you don't plan public transport. These need to be considered in unison and if Dublin decides that a particular area will be high density it drives the decisions in the infrastructure and transport areas.

MementoMori

Good job on engaging with the public in this manner DCC. I would suggest that part of the plan should include be increased use of new technologies by all parties involved in the plan i.e. the internet. Using technologies such as the internet, email, SMS and developing websites to interact with the public are relatively low cost ways of improving communication with the inhabitants of the city centre.

hmmm wrote: »

The single biggest problem I think with the city and which should be addressed is sprawl.

I would agree strongly with this.

The existing Development Plan strategy for the spatial structure of the city has three key elements:
*Expanding the city centre eastwards to the Docklands and westwards to Heuston
*Developing ‘Prime Urban Centres’ as sustainable hubs in the suburbs e.g. North Fringe, Ballymun, Crumlin and Rathmines
*Making new “developing areas/regeneration areas, such as Pelletstown, Digital Hub and Poolbeg

Until there are big changes to the transport system particullarly the bus routes it's going to be hard to expand the city centre eastwards and westwards. As it is the vast majority of bus routes seem to radiate out from O'Connell Bridge. I'm not saying that it can be accomplished in one go, but an increase in routes that avoid the city centre might be an idea. Dublin Bus might consider changing the route numbers for buses to something that makes some sort of sense. As it is the bus routes numbers equate to nonsense. There is an amount of land in the Docklands area that is being mis-used. Having the port so close to the city centre is complete nonsense. The sooner the Port is shifted out of where it is the better.

For the Prime Urban Centres it might be possible to look at areas where something like this does already exist in the city e.g. places similar to Rathmines, Ranelagh , study them to see why they work and try and replicate it.

hmmm wrote: »

I'm disappointed that the Phoenix Park is not a focal point of city regeneration. It is an utterly under-utilised amenity which most cities would be proud to have. We should consider closing the park to traffic and make it a central part of Dublin family life. High density residental should ring the park.

I would agree totally with this - while it's not as central as someplace like the Central Park in New York perhaps it could be somewhere like The Englischer Garten in Munich and become better intergrated with the life of the city.

Degsy wrote: »

Zero Tolerance policing on public drunkeness,intoxication and drug dealing. There are people openly selling heroin on O'Connel bridge at 8 am with commuters walking past them.
The boardwalk is pretty much out of bounds for everybody except winos and druggies. This is the CITY CENTRE..its not some ghetto slum tucked away in the suburbs!

I would agree with this strongly - the boardwalk is very poorly policed.
With there does seem to be a pretty decent police presence they don't seem to be very active. While I know that by simply walking around they have an impact, this is not good enough. There should be a zero-tolerance approach to any sort of anti-social behaviour. A six-month crackdown where the public were encouraged to call the police whenever they saw any crime no matter how small would have a big effect. As it stands it is too easy for people to say there's no point in calling the police for small crimes as they won't do anything, which means that people will carry out these small crimes. A crackdown on begging/harrassing people at LUAS stops/ATMs etc .
While this may require some changes in legislation, this is something that could be acheived relatively easily but bring a noticeable improvement in terms of quality of life to a lot of people.

Earth Worm Jim wrote: »

I would like to see a clearer planning proccess in the city centre docklands area.... As it seems to be a little confusing when the DDDA have one plan and DCC have another........ I am looking at lots of empty apartments, abandoned plans, and a total lack of regard for the local communities..

I think it is time to wind up the DDDA and absorb it into the city properly. As it is you have two organisations (with all the assorted bureacracy that brings) having similar goals but aimed in different directions. This is bound to cause problems. [However I fear it could be a case that this won't happen because by having two organisations instead of one there are more-jobs-for-the-boys]

How can we motivate greater numbers of people to cycle, walk or use public transport?

As a cyclist improve the bike lanes and make it safer to cycle in the city. Currently too many people don't cycle in the city because they don't feel it's safe to do so. Also improved bike parking facilities - all new car parks should have bike racks in safe secure areas, as should all public areas. [Pet hate] Also cyclists who cycle on footpaths should be prosecuted - as someone who was hit by a cyclist cycling on a footpath it drives me nuts. I see this all the time yet never see the guards doing anything about it. It also bugs me because I do obey the rules of the road when I'm cycling. [Rant over]

Play Facilities
Play is an extremely important part of a child’s development. With 20% of Dublin City Council’s population under 18 years of age it is vital that enough play facilities and play opportunities are provided in all areas of the city.

I've often thought that there should be an increase in areas for sports in the city centre spots. I do not understand why there isn't room for some soccer pitches in St Stephens Green. Also perhaps a basketball court in Wolfe Tone Park. There are probably other central areas I can't think of as well. As it is there seems to be a policy of pushing sporting activities out of the city centre. Also there should be a skate park built somewhere central as well.

OK - some of this stuff is probably a bit off-topic for the Development Plan but I kinda threw in whatever I could think of.

DCC Planning Secretariat

Thanks for the positive feedback on the idea of us posting this discussion and thanks for all the views posted so far. We thought we should come on and clarify a couple of points and answer some of your questions about the process. Because we are the authority behind the process and this stage is about hearing your views, we can’t get involved in a debate on the issues, but we do want you to.

hmmm wrote:

The concepts are abstract (to someone like me who is not a city planner) and it would help to illustrate the ideas by taking some real life examples of city inhabitants and explain how the new plan would improve their city.

You’re right, the concepts are abstract at this stage. This part of the process of making the Development Plan is about focusing on the big issues facing the City.

Once this consultation stage is over, the City Manager prepares a report for the City Councillors recommending what the main policy and thrust of the Plan might be. The report is based on feedback during consultation and on relevant studies, policies etc. The City Councillors then decide on what the major policies are and directs the City Manager to put together a draft City Development Plan based on those policies. The draft Plan, once its agreed with the City Councillors, will be put on public display at the end of 2009 and will contain much more specific policies and objectives for people to comment on.

MadsL wrote:

Can I suggest that this thread be submitted formally as part of the consultation process? - I know that comments garnered here will be anonymous, but could they be included in the submissions do you think?

Yes, the views expressed in this thread will be included in the report that goes to the City Council on the consultation process.

MementoMori wrote:

Using technologies such as the internet, email, SMS and developing websites to interact with the public are relatively low cost ways of improving communication with the inhabitants of the city centre.

Using communications technology is a new opportunity for us to connect with people. Rather than relying only on our traditional ways of consulting - public meetings and public notices - we want to try new methods of communicating and consulting with people, so we would encourage you all to get involved in this discussion thread, talk to each other and let us hear your views.

Thanks for getting involved.

Art(h)ur

*Expanding the city centre eastwards to the Docklands and westwards to Heuston

This one touches the issue I think is crucial for medium-term development planning for the centre. There seem to be a ring-shaped zone around the 'core' city centre, which looks very bad and is a no-go area for many (don't want to use the word 'slums' but...). It's a shocking contrast - on one street you have expensive shops, hotels etc. and right next to them you have abandoned apartments or buildings literally falling apart. Examples:
- Harcourt and Charlemont St./Richmond St.
- Stephen's Green and Kevin St.
- Christchurch and Thomas St.
- O'Connell St. and Marlborough St.
- Parnell St. and Dominick St.
Nobody, except for the ones living there, wants to go to those areas - there's nothing attractive for them anyway: no shop, pub, restaurant or office. No tourist will spend their money, no business will invest. And it's only a minute walk from the most glamorous addresses on the island!
Of course, part of this 'bad zone' is being redeveloped but I think the process has to accelerate as otherwise I don't see any future for the likes of Lombard St. or Summerhill - in 2017 they are likely to look the same as now, I'm afraid.
Solutions - I'm not sure about the idea of extending the city centre, meaning large shops and offices, onto those areas - it may not work as we're talking about a huge area overall. Possibly some kind of redevelopment with a mixture of residential and small business use - like Smithfield or Grand Canal Quay.
I'm not sure what's the best solution here but definitely something should be done about this. Unless we're OK with never walking outside the two axes of the city centre (O'Connell St. to Harcourt and Temple Bar+Quays) at night.

MementoMori

Just another thing that I thought of - some of the Luas stops seem to have become litter black spots since the stops were set up.

The most glaring example of this is the Jervis St stop on the outbound side.

Since the Luas stop was set up there, there has been a massive increase in the amount of litter hereabouts.

Pressure should be put on Veolia to do something about this, be it by charging them some sort of fee, penalising them monetarily or forcing them to maintain the stops in good order. It might also be an idea to run a campaign involving litter wardens at this spot - I presume there is pretty extensive CCTV located in the vacinity of Luas stops.

gurramok

Agree with MementoMori posts. It simply ain't safe to live in the city centre and most of the apts built are way too small for family living expensive cost of living in them and we have an inadequate transport system.

And oh yeah, fix the potholes, it will save the city money from expensive claims.

bobbyjoe

Any word on what is happening with the Liberties area?
Been hearing for years there was going to be a lot done but haven't seen anything yet.

Thraktor

First off, I'd like to thank DCC for actually putting the public consultation online like this. I always assumed that county development plan consultations were unnecessarily difficult to get involved in, and reaching out through a community like Boards.ie is a huge step in the right direction.

The first item I would like to see addressed is the facilities for cyclists in the city center. Compared to most cities in Europe, Dublin is simply not cyclist-friendly. Cycle lanes are sporadic and poorly laid out, junctions and traffic lights do not adequately cater to cyclists, and the amount of traffic and tight corners could potentially make cycling very dangerous in the city center.

I am not a cyclist myself, but until recently I lived in Ranelagh, which would have been a perfect distance to cycle in and out of college (Trinity) and work (IFSC) every day. However, I never once cycled, as I thought that doing so would be both difficult and perhaps unsafe. If you wish to decrease the amount of vehicle traffic in the city center, then I would strongly suggest looking at cities like Amsterdam and Berlin, and adopt their approach of placing bicycles on an equal level of importance alongside pedestrian and vehicular traffic at all stages of planning and development.

The second item I would like to see considered, although clearly not quite as important as the above, is that the council resurface Grafton St and the adjoining streets and lanes. Grafton St is one of the main tourist stops in the city in and of itself (indeed it links St Stephen's Green and Trinity, two of the other main points of interest), it is a focal point for the city's shoppers, and it is the fifth most expensive street in the world to rent retail property. However, it still has an ugly, crumbling, grimy redbrick pavement that would be more reminiscent of the near-empty shopping street of an old country town.

Dublin City Council has shown with O'Connell St that it is capable (albeit slowly) of redeveloping areas to a high standard, and although Grafton St doesn't have the space for trees or statues, it could be made look an awful lot better than it does now. In fact, an open competition could be set up to invite artists, architects and members of the public to design a motif or pattern for the pavement. A celtic or modern design could turn the street itself into an artwork and a place worth visiting. Granted expenditure needs to be cut back at times like these, but a small levy on the owners of buildings on and off Grafton St could cover the cost, providing a lasting benefit to their businesses at the same time.

I have a number of further suggestions and items I'd like to see addressed, but I'll leave it at that for now.

lostexpectation

the possiblity for comment is endless....

MadsL

bobbyjoe wrote: »

Any word on what is happening with the Liberties area?
Been hearing for years there was going to be a lot done but haven't seen anything yet.

The Local Area Plan for the Liberties has been published. Hopefully an ACA for Thomas Street before long.

Next public meeting on the plan is on 10th March, Digital Exchange, Crane St
6pm pre-meetings, 7pm - 9:30pm Forum
http://www.theliberties.ie

Why not go along and find out more..

nylon

I would echo Arthur's post. The urban decay on streets like James St, Thomas St, the areas off Francis St etc is simply shocking.

I'm not sure what the situation is as regards compulsory purchase, but it is truly tragic to see fine 19th century buildings being allowed to degrade in this manner- presumably so they can be declared dangerous and demolished, to be replaced by something more lucrative.

I fear, in these times of recession, something akin to the 1980s urban landscape described by Frank McDonald in the Destruction of Dublin.

Macha

Not sure if this is still going on but anyway:

-increased planning of transport in conjunction with land-use.

-higher density developments in the city centre, with a mix of retail, office and residential in the same building to improve travel demand management.

-retail on the ground floor so that there are no undesirable, unsafe ground-floor apartments: learn from the continentals!

-improved services and facilities for apartment dwellers: where is there to go on a sunny day to have a bbq or bring the kids that won't be totally over-crowded. I know your Children's Officer believes every child should have a back garden but this view is as fantastical as it is naive. Apartment living is the way forward and if we want families to live in them, we have to provide decent facilities.
*This includes increasing the amount of green spaces and parks, particularly around the Northern Docklands, which has considerably less green space than the corresponding area on the Southside.
*This could include development of the Royal Canal into a linear park with information boards on wildlife and history and improved safety, lighting and surfacing to encourage walkers and joggers.

-improved local recycling facilities: it is ironic that very often you need a car to recycle in this city.

-improved recycling fractions in on-street bins: I might be diligent enough to bring items home with me to recycle but I'm pretty sure I'm in the minority. The option to recycle has to be a no-brainer.

-as Thraktor mentioned, improved facilities for cyclists. As a cyclist, I can tell you there aren't enough parking facilities and the cycle lanes are just shocking. Why do many cease to exist at 7pm?? That's exactly when cyclists need more space, when it's dark and more dangerous!! What is the point in going through all the trouble of painting the cycle lanes and then only allowing them to operate 50% of the time? Total madness
*the quality of the road surface around Dublin is truly disgraceful. Often holes are half-heartedly filled in, for the tarmac to just sink down again (Pearse St=prime example). I can tell you this has been a major disincentive for several friends of mine who just find cycling too painful and uncomfortable.
*frequently cycle lanes are narrowed down to no more than a foot wide as car lanes take priority (Northumberland Road). This is very dangerous for cyclists.
*I don't know if you can change the law on this but allowing people to park in cycle lanes for 30 minutes is quite possibly the most ridiculous concept every imagined.
*more parking facilities focused at relevant locations ie transport nodes like Luas & DART stations eg outside the Luas station in Ranelagh - you can fit about 6 bikes (...!)
*Allow bikes on the Luas ie integrated transport.

-improve the ratio of passenger time/car time at pedestrian lights. Often there is over-crowding on pavements at rush-hour as a few cars sail by.

-widen footpaths, especially on places like Dame St where it is positively dangerous to walk at 5.30pm.

-pedestrianize College Green!!

-reduce on-street parking. This would have two effects 1) reduce attractiveness of driving while 2) increasing space for cycle lanes (eg around Stephen's Green)

That's all I can think of for the moment..

Thraktor

I agree with pretty much everything taconnol posted, particularly with regard to bicycles on public transport. This is the case in pretty much every bicycle-friendly European city, and although the busses wouldn't be able to accommodate them, it would encourage people to use the DART/Luas/Metro if they could cycle the rest of the way at the other end.

Concerning pedestrianising College Green, this is something that I'd like to see, but I can certainly imagine that there would be traffic management issues, given that on either side of it are two pedestrian areas already (Trinity and Temple Bar). Frankly I'd like to see a large city-center pedestrian region covering an area somewhat like this:



(Map here)

With adequate Luas and cycle access, it would make the center of the city far more pleasant for both those who live and work there as well as tourists.

DCC Planning Secretariat

As the statutory deadline for this period of public display comes to a close today, we would like to thank everyone who got involved in this on-line discussion, especially those who posted replies.

The next step is the preparation of a Manager’s Report on submissions received during this period of consultation. Your posts will help inform this report which will be considered by Councillors prior to the preparation of the Draft City Development Plan 2011 – 2017.

It is envisaged that a ten-week public display of the Draft Development Plan will commence in mid-December this year.

We look forward to engaging on-line again at that stage.

In the meantime keep an eye on www.dublin.ie/devplan and www.dublincity.ie for updates on what’s happening.