Western renaissance?

Retr0gamer

I've just been thinking that since the start of this generation of consoles there really has been a surge of popularity and dominance in the market for western developed games. If you look back at it ever since the NES japanese games companies have and developed games have really been the force that pushed the medium forward and have dominated the market. Sure there are exceptions to this rule, japanese companies can't make a decent FPS to save their lives, GTA 3 was a massive leap forward and some genres like RTS and exclusively western, and it would be a gross generalisation to say that western developers never make good games.

The PC market has alwasy been dominated by western developed games and this unfortunately saw a big lull in my opinion during the PS2 era. Consoles have a mix of western and japanese developed games but it has predominantly been the japanese developed games that have been the big blockbusters or provided the niche hardcore titles.

However there has been a massive shift this generation. Japanese companies are licensing western developed technology like Unreal 3. Many companies like Square Enix are developing games to specifically appeal to the western market and, with some exceptions like Dead Rising, are failing miserably. MGS4 went the same way. The producer of Splinter Cell was called in to supervise and by removing the japanese gaming conventions that made the previous games so unique they created in my opinion a hollow husk of a game that was playing catch up to western games and failing to live up to other game sin the series.

Practically all the big games this generation have been western developed other than MGS 4. GTA 4, Gears of War, Little Big Planet etc. have all been western. One good side effect of this seems to be that western genres that were typically niche are now becoming big sellers. A western RPG like Oblivion would usually be confined to a niche audience and is now a massive seller. Then look at Bioshock, a mix of RPG and FPS. It's basically a remake of System Shock 2, a stellar game that sold peanuts yet bioshock sells millions.

I think there are a few reasons for this. I don't think many of the japanese developers have the finances to risk producing a AAA title for a next gen machine that could become a flop if it gets ignored. MGS4 crippled Konamis games studios as they were all brought in to finish the game. Smaller developers could make a high quality PS2 game and still make a profit if it sold moderately well in japan alone. If it got picked up by a western publisher it was a bonus. Now a high quality game has to be successful in all territories to make a profit.

Some of the big japanese companies have gone downhill in my opinion. Konami could only get one nig game out this year, MGS4, other than it's usual franchises like PES. Any other games were outsourced to western teams. Square Enix are total corporate whores. They are shovelling out absolute tosh and I can safely say they have given us 1 good game last year out of 20+. Namco have retreated on themselves and acting like the old backwards japanese software developes of old. Only the big franchises make it to the west and then there are 6-12 month waits for them to arrive (not to mention their games aren't backwards compatible on the 360).

There's only really 2 success stories, Nintendo need no introduction, and Capcom. Capcom have alwasy been a funny company. They stick grudgingly to their old ways and are one of the only companies still making games that will challenge you. Their games designed to appeal to westerners have been selling extremely well and their japanese style games are selling well as well. They are managing to drum up excitement for Street Fighter 4, a game in a genre that was about to go stale. They are also one of the few japanese developers with their own in house engine. However on the flip side there is a huge backlash against Resi 5 from the demo. Resi 4 is unarguably one of the best games of last generation. However people are complaining about the control scheme in Resi 5, the same control scheme that never hindered Resi 4 and made it the unique and brilliant game it is. It could be down to westerners used to moving and shooting in game like CoD4 and GoW, or something a bit more worrying.

Another reason could be that the PS3 and 360 just aren't selling in japan. Japanese developers still seem to be producing a lot of great PS2 titles since they can make more sales and developing for handheld consoles since both are still far more popular than the next gen consoles. It's safe to say that japan are still dominating the handheld market.

There's one strange side effect of this. Western hardcore gamers used to be enamoured with obscure japanese games and lapped them up despite them never really becoming mainstream. Over in japan the xbox 360 and it's western games have gained a hardcore following with the 360 gaining a niche with hardcore japanese gamers interested in trying FPS and western RPG games.

Anyway I've waffled enough and couln't be arsed reading over it. Any thoughts?

Matt Simis

This and the Wii are at fault:

Retrogamer wrote:

Another reason could be that the PS3 and 360 just aren't selling in japan. Japanese developers still seem to be producing a lot of great PS2 titles since they can make more sales and developing for handheld consoles since both are still far more popular than the next gen consoles. It's safe to say that japan are still dominating the handheld market.

Nintendo have forced a situation where the choice is go backwards technologically and limit yourself to the Wii/DS and make easy money or risk $$ making next gen engines (and experiences that live up the epic equivalents of previous generations) for the HD machines, neither of which are matching the inferior (not as a slur, its just a matter of fact in a world of technology its the runt of the litter) machine in sales.
Nintento are the kings of shovelware and repetitive, simplistic, "mainstreaming". This was not what the Gamecube stood for.

There is also that thing where Jap developers are sick of the confines of their safety zone, purposely bringing Western influences to add the polish and appeal they see themselves as lacking.

Cy_Revenant

Personally, I've thought that for the past while, Japanese developers have been lacking in innovation.

JRPGs are a great example of this. I've played quite a few of these from the Final Fantasys, to the Tales of, and while there have been some amazing games in this genre, it's not exactly one bristling with innovation. The games tend to stick to the same concepts and mechanics, though some aspects get polished.

Squaresoft, who've been making Final Fantasy for years now, saw the man who lead development leave to start a new company, and have since seen a lull in the quality of their releases. Meanwhile Hironobu Sakaguchi continues to make Final Fantasy under different names, like Blue Dragon and Lost Oddessey.

There seem to be a lot of game auteurs in the Japanese market, the aforementioned Sakaguchi and the infamous Shigeru Miyamoto made generation defining games in the eighties. Since then, they have continued to make the same games. Though each iteration adds a new hat.

From Software, and Koei, more companies who continue to produce the same game. Armoured Core and Chromehounds are classic examples of Japanese game design. Levels selected from a mission screen, with a start and an end, bound by the words "Mission Begin" and "Mission Complete" and tied together with a short timer. Chromehounds 4 on the xbox shocked me recently with its complete lack of an autosave feature. Without selecting the save option from your system menu between missions, all progress will be lost. Here I thought we left this behind in the nineties.

I certainly wouldn't say that Japanese developers lack the capacity to innovate, or to make great games, that would be nonsense. Also, Suda 51 proves you can at least have the innovation, though his polish could do with work. Just to me, they seem lazier than Western developers. More set in their ways, completely comfortable to make the same games they made last season again.

BlitzKrieg

However there has been a massive shift this generation. Japanese companies are licensing western developed technology like Unreal 3.

I think this is a key point that is often over looked, in a matter of game development the difference between japanese developed products and western developed products has been the western developers have a much bigger emphasize on creating software platforms and it has proven with the PC and has become apparant with this generation that this is where success really lies. Creating a piece of software that can be applied across the board in numerous different types of games is a huge conveniance to the game industry, it simplifies matters in the way of workloads and it clearly draws the lines on what can and cannot be done in the current wave of technology.

In a comparison between western developers and Japanese developers, the issue of graphic engines etc has long existed and been promoted among western developers, specifically PC developers, FPS have long known of the quake 3 v unreal engine debates, the rise of the Source engine and the beauty of the crytec technology. This very nerdy emphasize on creating engines that can carry multiple games is something that just isnt as important with Japanese developers.


Which in the current economic climate is a big problem, publishers should be able to buy in bulk X number of titles with Y set of engines and the developers will work with them, western developers have no problem with this, they have been raised on this sort of system. I dont think I've ever seen any across the board engines in Japanese games beyond maybe direct sequels (persona 3/4, Sonic adventure series) and if they do exist they dont emphasize them or encorage the same technology sharing and trading the western developers do (Havoc being on permanent lease to *everyone*) It has shown up recently, Sega made a big deal of their Hedgehog engine, but this throws things around, outside of Sonic games, who is going to use the Hedgehog engine, while Unreal engine can and has been adapted to countless different titles and genres.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Unreal_Engine_games#Unreal_Engine_3

Which brings up the point, in Japanese developed games do they try and use the systems they build to go across multiple titles? I mentioned this in my MGS4 review, has the engine that runs MGS4 been taken and sold to other ps3 developers for their games? If like the prior titles, the answer is no, the MGS engine is only for MGS games, this is costly and clearly a waste in resources.


Not only that but in project development western developers are more experianced in two areas, Online development, more successful online games are developed by american and european developers and with both hd consoles focusing on online support so much a publisher is more likely to side with someone with experiance then companies who will make mistakes long since learnt from the quake and counter strike days.

Western developers also tend to make more *skirmish* friendly games, we are talking games you can pick up and play/replay specific aspects of it again quickly and enjoy it. Hate them or Love them but Bungie have hit the mark on their *repeating 5 minutes of fun* game development. It usually results in much shorter games, but they are games you are probably willing to replay in the immeadiate time rather then once every 2 or so years. Think sort of like Blockbusters in movies, they are easy on the thumbs and dont take up too much of your time.


In an economic sense western developers are just a much more mobile work force with experiance.

Azza

Its not really a concern to me as I'm primarily a PC gamer as its a decline primarily in a genre I never had access to jRPG (although MGS is not a jRPG). Its a shame in that the quailty of Japanese games does seem to have declined recently when some Japanese developers are showing more of an interest in that platform now.

Western RPG on the other hand where never a niche genre in the west, its just they where the reserve of PC gamers (you could argue a niche genre) and once the genre went multiplatform which offers a vastly higher player base its popularity exploded. Sadly while these games are generally still good, the switched has resulted in a watered down experience.

noodler

Is it really correct to day that the 360 and PS3 aren't selling in Japan? I mean they may not have PS2 level stature but I certainly feel that the Wii hasn't replaced them to the extent some people argue, basically furthering(in my mind at least) the argument that the Wii is a different market.

Anyway, the Call of Duty games are a massive part of this IMO view as are MS. I mean alot of MS's success has been on games such as GOW2 and Halo which are the A-Typical Western game IMO. These have obviously sold amazingly well in the US. So maybe there is a a role for the 360 in explaining some of this.

Also didn't Konami release Silent Hill everywhere but Europe recently?


I would like some JRPGs for the PS3 alright but I read some of the 360 ones weren't even that great.

Retr0gamer

re: Blitzkriegs post

Japanese developers have used game engines for multiple games. Konami used it's MGS2 engine for most of it's PS2 games and Capcom have their own engine that has been used in Lost Planet, Dead Rising and resident evil 4. However these are all in house engines. Development money could probably be better spent buying the license to an existing game engine. As far as I know the licensing fee for Unreal 3 is very cheap compared to the time and money investment that making an engine would be. Japanese developers need to realise this.

As for JRPGs going downhill, I disagree. The problem is square enix becoming a shadow of it's former self. We are seeing some excellent JRPGs but many of them stay in japan or are being released only on the PS2, PSP and DS. Sega released probably the greatest strategy RPG ever with Valkyria Chronicles and didn't bother marketing it and Namco are taking their sweet time releasing Tales of Vesperia.

Chumpski

Yes but using the same engine means every game you develop has a common look and feel and limitations (to a point). I personally would hate to see all developers in the world, both western and japanese pick and choose between 2 or 3 popular engines for every game they develop.

Also developing your own engine from scratch means you know it inside out without some third party providing manuals and training for studios to learn their technology. It does need alot of resources but at the same time this engine can be used again and again on the companies other games for the system. I know its been said before that this is a waste of resources. Maybe it is. But their are alot of benefits too to companies developing their own game engines.

Retr0gamer

noodler wrote: »

Is it really correct to day that the 360 and PS3 aren't selling in Japan? I mean they may not have PS2 level stature but I certainly feel that the Wii hasn't replaced them to the extent some people argue, basically furthering(in my mind at least) the argument that the Wii is a different market.

They are selling, even the 360 is doing okay. It's just they aren't selling nearly as much as they are in the west or like previous generations of consoles. I think the PS3 is only just starting to sell more than the PS2 and PS2 games are outstripping next gen game sin terms of sales.

noodler wrote: »

Also didn't Konami release Silent Hill everywhere but Europe recently?

Yes they did but this just further reinforces my point. Silent Hill 5 was outsourced by konami to an American team and it is getting pretty average reviews since it's quite obvious the american team could not replicate what made the Silent Hill games so good. It ended up being a typical survival horror with cheap jump scares instead of the psychological and abstract horror of the originals.

noodler wrote: »

I would like some JRPGs for the PS3 alright but I read some of the 360 ones weren't even that great

Blue Dragon is a love hate game. Great battle system, dreadful story. Lost Odyssey takes a while to get into. The first disc isn't great, the second disc really picks up and by the third and fourth it's brilliant. Not a patch on the FF games of old though. Eternal Sonata is out of PS3 soon, get it, it's brilliant. Also I've heard nothing but good things about Tales of Vesperia, can't wait for that. I bought my PS3 for JRPGs, if it wasn't for Valkyria Chronicles I'd be pretty annoyed right now.

CiDeRmAn

I guess with the cost of development it's simply cheaper to buy in middleware, like Havoks stuff, Unreal Engine etc.
That said, japanese and euro/western gaming tastes are so different the gaes we all play are polarised.
We like FPS and RTS, stealth action and the like, they are more into turn based JRPG, social adventure games, the likes of Monster Hunter on PSP for example, they like some sort of regularity in their game series, Dynasty Warriors, Pokemon, Phantasy Star and their ilk.
The 360 is becoming popular because it is carrying the titles that japanese gamers want to play, Square/Enix titles, Sega and Capcom fighters.
Japanese gamers care little for Doom/Quake/GTA or Halo.

It seems the one genre we love equally is racing, and in this regard we have a west/east split between Gran Turismo, Project Gotham, Outrun and Grid.

But then, as developers themselves become international, with Ubisoft having a studio in nearly every continent, Sega and Nintendo handing big IPs like Outrun and Metroid over to "foreign" developers, maybe the distinction at that end of things is breaking down, a classically japanese, US or UK developer could be making a game for a market entirely alien to them.

BlitzKrieg

Japanese developers have used game engines for multiple games. Konami used it's MGS2 engine for most of it's PS2 games

Maybe the issue at hand then is that they dont treat their engines as a financial asset, have they sold the engine onto other developers outside of Konami?

Capcom have their own engine that has been used in Lost Planet, Dead Rising and resident evil 4.

Like you said yourself Capcom are an exception, they seemed to have clicked just prior to this generation that a shift was coming and have adapted brilliantly, Sega are clearly trying the same but have been slower and alot more miss (Golden Axe, sonic unleashed) then hit (buying western developers, Valkryia Chronicles engine)

Also both Capcom and Sega have also bought Unreal 3 licences.

However these are all in house engines. Development money could probably be better spent buying the license to an existing game engine. As far as I know the licensing fee for Unreal 3 is very cheap compared to the time and money investment that making an engine would be. Japanese developers need to realise this.

Its not just that the Unreal 3 engine is cheaper, its that its an intergrated base

look at the list of partners http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Unreal_Engine#Unreal_Engine_3

This allows for a continued progressive support and an ability to easily link and support other bits of software.

Buying a Unreal 3 engine is practically a garuntee that it will support every major piece of game development software available today. It is probably because of this integrated partners support that has lead to the Unreal 3 engine being such a success compared to other third party ngins.

Yes but using the same engine means every game you develop has a common look and feel and limitations (to a point). I personally would hate to see all developers in the world, both western and japanese pick and choose between 2 or 3 popular engines for every game they develop.

This is true that it is possible to easily identify the unreal engine by a number of key elements (small levels being one). But the idea of a number of integrated partner engines does appeal to me in that it should in theory be able to diversify an engine enough if it has an extensive library of integrated partners.

This is something Valve proved with half life by integrating the quake engine with a series of new developments and software, the engine had little to no common elements with its siblings.

Also is it possible for some of these engines to survive on their own? Could Epic survive off the Unreal engine alone without developing GOW or Unreal tournament to sell it? Can the Quake engine survive without Quake. ID seem to pushing the idea that they are no longer engines associated to the titles (callign them ID tech 2-5 instead of the quake 2 - doom 4 engines).

Retr0gamer

I think ID have previously stated that they make very little off engine sales. I'd say Epic could survive without engine sales but the Unreal 3 engine has been a massive success and probably generates a lot of money.

johnny_ultimate

Retr0gamer wrote: »

As for JRPGs going downhill, I disagree. The problem is square enix becoming a shadow of it's former self. We are seeing some excellent JRPGs but many of them stay in japan or are being released only on the PS2, PSP and DS. Sega released probably the greatest strategy RPG ever with Valkyria Chronicles and didn't bother marketing it and Namco are taking their sweet time releasing Tales of Vesperia.

Thing about JRPGs is that a lot of people are looking in the wrong place, as you mentioned in your OP. DS, handheld and even the PS2 are still producing vast quantities of fantastic japanese RPGs. The DS is the new home for Square Enix, producing the innovative World Ends With You, welcome remakes of classics (likes of Dragon Quest IV/V and Chrono Trigger which never saw Western releases in the first place) and - most excitingly - Dragon Quest IX (and X on the Wii). While I would prefer to see a couple of these on home consoles, traditional and well made Square Enix games are still about, just not on the 'next-gen' consoles. Same with PSP, which has a fine selection of SRPGs in particular. And as for the PS2, it is home to the wonderful Persona 3 and soon to be 4. I am currently engrossed in the former, and am finding it far more engaging and well rounded than pretty much any RPG I've played in the last few years, including welcome, but still flawed, Westerners like Mass Effect and Fallout 3 (two excellent games for sure, but slightly overhyped IMO despite their virtues).

I can only imagine the costs of producing a big budget RPG on a console - something with the scope of Lost Odyssey can only be a lot of work for very little profit. Producing games on consoles that are cheaper to develop for, with a wider user base (especially in Japan itself) is sure to be a preferable option. It would be great to see some new RPGs, definitely - especially when the likes of Eternal Sonata are well worth a play, and along with Valkyria Chronicles (which I am dying to play, but lack of PS3 is preventing) show the kind of gameplay and artistic possibilities developers have with the new consoles.

But there definitely is a concern that Western developers are, in general, producing better games than their Japanese counterparts. While handhelds still seem to be a haven for J-developers, the likes of Valve, Infinity Ward, Harmonix, Epic and others are producing games that are just straight-up superior to the competition. While there are exceptions - Capcom are to be applauded in particular, for continuing to put out quality sequels, new IPs, and great downloadable games - there are so many brilliant American developed games being released (and most of the bigger games from the last few years have really been fantastic achievements) that it is hard to ignore the changing trends. While alot of Japanese developers refuse to move on, the Western developers are innovating and evolving.