Why I am fairly certain there is nothing after death

sink

This is a discussions started by Dev in the 'I just became an atheist' thread. I decided to start a whole new thread rather than further derailing that one.

DeVore wrote: »

"You already know how this will end"

But you dont know. No one knows. No one can know. How could they know

I congratulate you on following your free thought process without fear. Seriously, good for you.

But you are, in my humble opinion, not done yet.

You've swapped a certainty of religion for a certainty of nothing. It sounds quite desperate in fact when you talk about your family. You have killed your hope and declared it self-defence.

Forget certainty.

Take the next step and realise that you, like every other scared poster on this thread myself included, actually havent got a blind bull's notion what happens next. Take a deep breath and let the fear in... its ok to be afraid but dont let it own you. Then realise that there is nothing any of us can do about it and its a total waste of the precious time you have with your family. Realise that everyone who is trying to pawn off their world vision on you is simply trying to reassure themselves that they are right and there is some sort of certainty even if thats a nihilistic certainty.

Its the most arrogant thing for anyone to say "I know what happens next". No you dont. Shut up. I'm afraid too.

DeV,

I don't know for certain but I am fairly sure that there is nothing after death. Here is my reasoning.

Once upon a time we were all in a state of non-living, I was that way approx 25 years ago. I have absolutely no memory of it, which fit's neatly with my understanding of consciousness. Consciousness is an emergent property of our brain, it is the end result of millions of cells passing electro chemical signals to one another over billions of interconnected pathways.

When we are born our brain is very underdeveloped and so is our conscious. Our brain develops as we grow and our conscious develops in parallel. When our brain is damaged in anyway it alters our conscious i.e. our thoughts and behaviours. All this suggests that our brain is the sole cause of our consciousness and pretty much discounts the possibility of a soul i.e. our consciousness existing in some sort of non-corporeal form. So when our brain dies and it stops all activity and there is no soul to carry our thought forward, it will be the same as before we were born i.e. nothing.

There is no logical reason to be scared of dying as it will be the same as before we were born. But none the less I am a little scared of dying, this is a natural instinct and is a product of our evolution. Being scared of dying increases our chances of survival long enough for us to reproduce and pass on the instinct to our offspring.

This may seem pessimistic and hopeless to some of you who are still holding on to thoughts of an afterlife. I find that it is far from it. Knowing my place in reality gives me a sense of freedom and understanding. I know that it is pointless to pursue wealth, power or religious epiphany for this life is only temporary and none of it will last. What will outlive me is the impact I have upon the world good or bad. That is why the most important thing in life is the social bonds we build with our communities, our friends and family and what we contribute to society through our actions. Nothing is more rewarding than good relationships and nothing will last longer after death than what we contribute to society.

kiffer

I sort of agree with DeVor...
We, humanity, don't know and maybe can't know.
But...
If that's the case where did the idea of an afterlife come from?
We made it up.
What are the odds that we made up a fairytail? What reason do we have to start to give the idea credit?
The idea of an afterlife has been with us for a long time...

Myksyk

sink wrote: »

Conscientiousness is an emergent property of our brain, it is the end result of millions of cells passing electro chemical signals to one another over billions of interconnected pathways.

... I can't help myself ... I presume you mean 'consciousness' and not the character property of being organised, hardworking and meticulous ... although come to think of it, it is also the end result of the same brain processes!!!

PS ... I know ... Pedants are Prix

dollyk

ive never really thought about afterlife or whatever till someone i knew died, he was just a child, so then the mind kicks into , there must be something, life cant just end like this, he must have a purpose in heaven, the list is endless, but to be honest i dont believe there is anything else, would like to think im gonna meet my parents and all those dearly departed that went before me, i remember asking a medium btw im not a believer of this either, but i asked well if we all go to heaven , will the man who murdered a child, or woman who killed her kids be there also.:eek: serious like, do you know what he said, yes of course we will all be there, but on different energy levels.... but having said all that if my children die before me i would cling on to the belief that they were still around me..:)

sink

Myksyk wrote: »

... I can't help myself ... I presume you mean 'consciousness' and not the character property of being organised, hardworking and meticulous ... although come to think of it, it is also the end result of the same brain processes!!!

PS ... I know ... Pedants are Prix

Doh!

Sonderval

I'd be very careful about your assertions regarding consciousness. It clearly has a focus in the human brain, but we know very little about the mechanism itself - and therein lies the rub.

For all we know, it could be some quantum effect manifesting in our macro world. Or some purely synergistic property of neural activity.

We simply do not know.

Any claims which use human consciousness as is currently understood (and thats very, very little) as an axiom to some proof of a continued/discontinued existence is highly dubious.

Frankly, if your looking for some continuation, take solace in the fact that you are made from the universe itself, and when you die you'll go back into that cycle.

Simon.d

I'm an atheist, yet I do believe life after death is quite possible, where you'll once again exist alongside your loved ones, and even do so forever more..

But the real beauty of this belief of mine is that the rational for it lies within rather reputable scientific theories, most notably Roger Penrose's rethink on the idea of a big bang. Where rather than the universe coming from nothing, he now holds the opinion that it probably always existed, and continually repeats itself in a cyclical nature...Have a read of this article for a more comprehensive explanation of the theory..

But how may such a theory apply to the idea of an afterlife? Well assuming the universe is on an infinitely repeating cycle, and assuming that our existence is a possible event in each of these cycles. If you apply simple probability theory to this situation it would show that each possible event (including our existence) would occur an infinite amount of times over the duration of this infinitely repeating cycle.. (If you roll a dice and infinite number of times, it'll land on each of it's faces an infinite amount of times)

Therefore our lives alongside the people we share it with, could occur an infinite amount of times, meaning we could live this same life over and over again forever more, and possibly have done so for an eternity already.. So a few gaswillion tragillion (massive makey uppy numbers) years down the road we might be sitting here having this discussion again, and possibly have already had this discussion an infinite amount of times already..

mjg

Sonderval wrote: »

Frankly, if your looking for some continuation, take solace in the fact that you are made from the universe itself, and when you die you'll go back into that cycle.

I couldn't agree more.

I see us as a collection of highly advanced cells, no more deserving of some form of life after death than any other forms of life.

Our conciousness and imagination, coupled with the natural survival instinct that all life posesses in varying degrees makes us hope for (and for a lot of us, believe in) life after death. This same conciousness however, makes us aware of our mortality which makes us forewarned (and I think obligated) to live life to its fullest.

Rather than being fatalistic or pessimistic, I think this is a realistic and sensible position.

But nobody knows, so get out there and have a good cut off it!

mjg

Simon.d wrote: »

But the real beauty of this belief of mine is that the rational for it lies within rather reputable scientific theories, most notably Roger Penrose's rethink on the idea of a big bang. Where rather than the universe coming from nothing, he now holds the opinion that it probably always existed, and continually repeats itself in a cyclical nature...Have a read of this article for a more comprehensive explanation of the theory..

But how may such a theory apply to the idea of an afterlife? Well assuming the universe is on an infinitely repeating cycle, and assuming that our existence is a possible event in each of these cycles. If you apply simple probability theory to this situation it would show that each possible event (including our existence) would occur an infinite amount of times over the duration of this infinitely repeating cycle.. (If you roll a dice and infinite number of times, it'll land on each of it's faces an infinite amount of times)

Therefore our lives alongside the people we share it with, could occur an infinite amount of times, meaning we could live this same life over and over again forever more, and possibly have done so for an eternity already.. So a few gaswillion tragillion (massive makey uppy numbers) years down the road we might be sitting here having this discussion again, and possibly have already had this discussion an infinite amount of times already..

If the cyclical nature of the universe is correct, it will be the building blocks of matter, life and conciousness that are recycled, and the chances that everyone's building blocks will fall into the same position as they did for this cycle of the universe is infinitesimally improbable.

Who know's though. This may be the 10th or 100th time I've submitted this reply.:)

Simon.d

mjg wrote: »

If the cyclical nature of the universe is correct, it will be the building blocks of matter, life and conciousness that are recycled, and the chances that everyone's building blocks will fall into the same position as they did for this cycle of the universe is infinitesimally improbable.

Who know's though. This may be the 10th or 100th time I've submitted this reply.:)

Regardless of how infinitesimally improbable we may be, if an infinite amount of opportunities arise for this possibility, it will occur an infinite amount of times.. Tis one of the basic rules of probability theory, i.e. the probability of any possible event becomes 1 if given an infinite amount of chances to occur..

To quote Mark Twain:

"I do not fear death, in view of the fact that I had been dead for billions and billions of years before I was born, and had not suffered the slightest inconvenience from it."

I picture death as being extremely simliar to "life" before birth.

Handsome Bob

I find it hard to believe when someone says they aren't afraid of dying. Sure, you may not be afraid of what happens when you die (which for atheists would mean nothing, non-existence) but I think everyone has a fear of the process of dying.

I've seen people die of the most demeaning, protracted and painful diseases and terminal illnesses. Less and less do I hear of people dying "peacefully".

Putting the religious aspect to the side, saying you are not afraid of death is way too sweeping of a statement.

Latchy

I always think that as we dont remember the time before we are born ,then it will be the same in death ,nothingness .And it's not the actual dying that bothers most , it's that nothingness. Something along the lines of the Mark Twain quote .Although I am speaking from a non- religious point of view .

fitz0

LZ5by5 wrote: »

I find it hard to believe when someone says they aren't afraid of dying. Sure, you may not be afraid of what happens when you die (which for atheists would mean nothing, non-existence) but I think everyone has a fear of the process of dying.

I've seen people die of the most demeaning, protracted and painful diseases and terminal illnesses. Less and less do I hear of people dying "peacefully".

Putting the religious aspect to the side, saying you are not afraid of death is way too sweeping of a statement.

I would be of the opinion that fear of death is very different than not wanting to die. I don't hold any fear of death but at the same time I really really don't want to die just yet.

Wacker

Here's a related question that I had considered starting a new thread about, but that would have required that I really articulate my question, and I'm too tired and stressed from work to put that much effort in. Which comes first: the (reduced?) fear of death, or the atheism? Or could be little or no relation between the two whatsoever?

Vampireskiss

Simon.d wrote: »

I'm an atheist, yet I do believe life after death is quite possible, where you'll once again exist alongside your loved ones, and even do so forever more..

But the real beauty of this belief of mine is that the rational for it lies within rather reputable scientific theories, most notably Roger Penrose's rethink on the idea of a big bang. Where rather than the universe coming from nothing, he now holds the opinion that it probably always existed, and continually repeats itself in a cyclical nature...Have a read of this article for a more comprehensive explanation of the theory..

But how may such a theory apply to the idea of an afterlife? Well assuming the universe is on an infinitely repeating cycle, and assuming that our existence is a possible event in each of these cycles. If you apply simple probability theory to this situation it would show that each possible event (including our existence) would occur an infinite amount of times over the duration of this infinitely repeating cycle.. (If you roll a dice and infinite number of times, it'll land on each of it's faces an infinite amount of times)

Therefore our lives alongside the people we share it with, could occur an infinite amount of times, meaning we could live this same life over and over again forever more, and possibly have done so for an eternity already.. So a few gaswillion tragillion (massive makey uppy numbers) years down the road we might be sitting here having this discussion again, and possibly have already had this discussion an infinite amount of times already..

So what your saying is that people who have been murdered, raped, molested as a child and all the people that have carried out these acts are vitcims of the natural law of the universe.Sorry but I do not accept or believe this.I believe that as human beings whether there is a god or not or an afterlife or not we have a choice.Now that choice may be affected by other peoples choices and the debate of reincarnation is an interesting one living the same life over and over again. I just do not accept it

Simon.d

Vampireskiss wrote: »

So what your saying is that people who have been murdered, raped, molested as a child and all the people that have carried out these acts are vitcims of the natural law of the universe.

If you delve in further into this idea, the same logic would include possibility that as well as repeating the life you know an infinite amount of times, all other possible paths could also be repeated.. If the universe was to go through every possible combination of energy/matter in space-time, an infinite amount of times, this could include many alternate outcomes for each of our lives (incorporating an idea of choice into the model), and those who suffered this time round, may not the next, and will have their own infinite amount of happy lives... (alongside the infinite amount of horrific ones)...

Vampireskiss wrote: »

Now that choice may be affected by other peoples choices and the debate of reincarnation is an interesting one living the same life over and over again. I just do not accept it

You may have no choice!

Galvasean

kiffer wrote: »

If that's the case where did the idea of an afterlife come from?
We made it up.
What are the odds that we made up a fairytail? What reason do we have to start to give the idea credit?
The idea of an afterlife has been with us for a long time...

Simple, ego. For many people the universe exists around them. It is impossible to imagine existence without 'self'. To them they must exist forever in some form.

midlandsmissus

LZ5by5 wrote: »

I find it hard to believe when someone says they aren't afraid of dying. Sure, you may not be afraid of what happens when you die (which for atheists would mean nothing, non-existence) but I think everyone has a fear of the process of dying.

I've seen people die of the most demeaning, protracted and painful diseases and terminal illnesses. Less and less do I hear of people dying "peacefully".

Putting the religious aspect to the side, saying you are not afraid of death is way too sweeping of a statement.

I'm not afraid of dying or the process of dying. I don't think it's anything to do with religion or atheism, as I know religious people who would be scared. It's probably a personal thing, but it holds absolutely no fear for me. Just seems like the next step.

ChocolateSauce

midlandsmissus wrote: »

I'm not afraid of dying or the process of dying.

I'm terrified of the process of dying! What if it takes years of unbearable agony?

God bless euthanasia, and many it be fully legal everywhere when my time is come.

midlandsmissus

ChocolateSauce wrote: »

I'm terrified of the process of dying! What if it takes years of unbearable agony?

God bless euthanasia, and many it be fully legal everywhere when my time is come.

Haha. Maybe it's different for men, because if you're a woman you go through pain on a regular basis, and I will face unbearable agony in my future....childbirth! death cant be worse than that.

Seriously, I know im going to have to go through excruciating agony (any woman ive met has told me its excruciating, and one said she actually begged to die near the end of her labour it was that bad).

Going off on a tangent one of my main issues with religion AND science is how the world is so unbelievably unfair to women: severe pain every month, pms, severe pain in childbirth, menopause, with no scientific need for it.

While im on the point: for evolutionists on here: it has been stated that there is absolutely NO scientific reason for periods. There is no need for them, they have no benefit. They are now marketing a new pill to stop periods altogether as there is no need for the pain that they cause. Similiarily there is absolutely no scientific benefit for women to experience excruciating pain in labour, why not just feel the need to push?

If you are a woman, you're questions anren't limited to is there a god or not, i'm always asking why does god/the universe hate us so much? everything just seems so much agony for no reason.

But back on topic, i suppose knowing that i'll have to go through terrible pain ANYWAY makes me not even think about pain during the dying process.

ChocolateSauce

midlandsmissus wrote: »

Haha. Maybe it's different for men, because if you're a woman you go through pain on a regular basis, and I will face unbearable agony in my future....childbirth! death cant be worse than that.

Seriously, I know im going to have to go through excruciating agony (any woman ive met has told me its excruciating, and one said she actually begged to die near the end of her labour it was that bad).

Going off on a tangent one of my main issues with religion AND science is how the world is so unbelievably unfair to women: severe pain every month, pms, severe pain in childbirth, menopause, with no scientific need for it.

While im on the point: for evolutionists on here: it has been stated that there is absolutely NO scientific reason for periods. There is no need for them, they have no benefit. They are now marketing a new pill to stop periods altogether as there is no need for the pain that they cause. Similiarily there is absolutely no scientific benefit for women to experience excruciating pain in labour, why not just feel the need to push?

If you are a woman, you're questions anren't limited to is there a god or not, i'm always asking why does god/the universe hate us so much? everything just seems so much agony for no reason.

But back on topic, i suppose knowing that i'll have to go through terrible pain ANYWAY makes me not even think about pain during the dying process.

There's only no reason for periods if you do what evolution intended and reproduce endlessly.

Helix

LZ5by5 wrote: »

I find it hard to believe when someone says they aren't afraid of dying. Sure, you may not be afraid of what happens when you die (which for atheists would mean nothing, non-existence) but I think everyone has a fear of the process of dying.

the process of dying is very different to being dead

i fear the possibility of breaking both my legs

i fear the possibility of having all my skin carved off before i die

i do not fear being dead

Lucas10101

kiffer wrote: »

If that's the case where did the idea of an afterlife come from?
We made it up.
What are the odds that we made up a fairytail? What reason do we have to start to give the idea credit?
The idea of an afterlife has been with us for a long time...

Yes- the reason we think there's an afterlife is because we are the ONLY species that -knows- we're going to die. Faced with this horrible prospect, who wouldn't want not to believe there's an afterlife where we could always exist.

Galvasean

midlandsmissus wrote: »

If you are a woman, you're questions anren't limited to is there a god or not, i'm always asking why does god/the universe hate us so much? everything just seems so much agony for no reason.

So basically you worship a cruel tyrant?

robindch

midlandsmissus wrote: »

the world is so unbelievably unfair to women: severe pain every month, pms, severe pain in childbirth, menopause, with no scientific need for it.

You should try being a guy -- we have our irritations too

More seriously, as ChocolateSauce points out, it seems that evolution has designed women to have periods, and reproduce, once every four or five years. In between these times, the act of breastfeeding stimulates the production of prolactin which not only causes the production of more breastmilk, but also acts as a very effective natural contraceptive (from the gene's point of view, it's a risk to have a second child while the first one is still breastfeeding, hence the hormone's dual-action). There's a reasonable amount of evidence to suggest that infrequent or non-existent breastfeeding over long periods is responsible for monthly periods and the other woe that the female reproductive system causes.

And while childbirth is no fun, you will at the time, be drenched inside with the hormone oxytocin which, amongst much else, acts not only to repress memories (of pain, presumably), but also to help in the process of bonding, the development of maternal instincts, trust and a lot of other good stuff.

It's not all unpleasant, uphill work.

Dades

I also thought it odd that if humans were created to be "special" over other creatures, why we also happen to be mammals, and suffer all the indignities and discomfort that rats and cows and whales do.

You'd think a separate animal group classification wouldn't be too much to ask for. :pac:

kiffer

midlandsmissus wrote: »

Haha. Maybe it's different for men, because if you're a woman you go through pain on a regular basis, and I will face unbearable agony in my future....childbirth! death cant be worse than that.

I'm sure childbirth is incredibly painful... I'm also sure that it's worse than any pain that I am ever going to encounter out side of some crazed torture situation.

Seriously, I know im going to have to go through excruciating agony (any woman ive met has told me its excruciating, and one said she actually begged to die near the end of her labour it was that bad).

Going off on a tangent one of my main issues with religion AND science is how the world is so unbelievably unfair to women: severe pain every month, pms, severe pain in childbirth, menopause, with no scientific need for it.

Well from the Religious stand point that pain in childbirth is punishment from God for the sin of Eve.
As for science... science provides you with painkillers, medicines, contraceptives and HRT...
Science doesn't make you feel pain...
Sadly we've evolved over time with bigger and bigger brains and heads... that's natures fault... not sciences, science is how we study the world.

While im on the point: for evolutionists on here: it has been stated that there is absolutely NO scientific reason for periods. There is no need for them, they have no benefit.

I'm not sure what you mean here...
The menstrual cycle allows you to become pregnant. The shedding (and reabsorption) of the uterine lining, rather than maintaining a full lining even when you're not ovulating saves a huge amount of energy...
As for why it has to be painful... well painfulness is not a selection criteria, the pain does not effect reproductive successes.

They are now marketing a new pill to stop periods altogether as there is no need for the pain that they cause. Similiarily there is absolutely no scientific benefit for women to experience excruciating pain in labour, why not just feel the need to push?

Scientific benefit?
I'm not sure what you mean here?

If you are a woman, you're questions anren't limited to is there a god or not, i'm always asking why does god/the universe hate us so much? everything just seems so much agony for no reason.

Well... Biblical literalism, would indicate that God has made these things painful as punishment for Eves disobedience...
Of course the NT supercedes the OT and all bets, deals and so on are off the books ... yet the punishment remains!
That God he's such a joker, punishments that roll over generations ...

But back on topic, i suppose knowing that i'll have to go through terrible pain ANYWAY makes me not even think about pain during the dying process.

That's a good point... which has left me thinking about the whole thing.

Wacker

kiffer wrote: »

As for why it has to be painful... well painfulness is not a selection criteria, the pain does not effect reproductive successes.

I don't know about that one... could you imagine a better dame to settle down and raise young 'uns with than one who didn't want to castrate you every month?!

Undergod

There is no logical reason to be scared of dying as it will be the same as before we were born.

Dying is the cessation of my being. I like being.

Going off on a tangent one of my main issues with religion AND science is how the world is so unbelievably unfair to women: severe pain every month, pms, severe pain in childbirth, menopause, with no scientific need for it.

I don't see how it is the fault of religion or science. It's just the way we evolved. That certainly doesn't make it pleasant, but you can hardly blame science and religion.

sink

Undergod wrote: »

Dying is the cessation of my being. I like being.

You won't dislike being dead either!

Undergod

sink wrote: »

You won't dislike being dead either!

When I get there, no, I probably won't dislike it. But I think it is totally logical for me to fear death now if it means the end of my consciousness.

Undergod

Undergod wrote: »

When I get there, no, I probably won't dislike it. But I think it is totally logical for me to fear death now if it means the end of my consciousness.

But the simple fact is that you won't like nor dislike it, because, you won't exist to know any difference.

To quote Epicurus:

"Why should I fear Death? If I am, death is not. If death is, I am not. Why should I fear that which cannot exist when I do?"

niallk

midlandsmissus wrote: »

Going off on a tangent one of my main issues with religion AND science is how the world is so unbelievably unfair to women: severe pain every month, pms, severe pain in childbirth, menopause, with no scientific need for it.

Spare a thought for us men who have to live with yee moaning about it.

niallk

Everyone saying they don't fear death is ridiculous. It's the most logical fear anyone can have. I personally am fairly sure that there is nothing after life and for this reason I greatly fear it. People are using a non-belief in after-life as an explanation for not fearing death (intellectual machismo?) when really it is religious people who should not fear death as they are going to paradise (lucky bastards :mad:).

Undergod

-JammyDodger- wrote: »

But the simple fact is that you won't like nor dislike it, because, you won't exist to know any difference.

So? I should still fear it now.