Irish Firm Claims World's Most Efficient Solar Heater

BendiBus

http://www.metaefficient.com/hot-water-systems/irish-firm-claims-worlds-efficient-solar-heater.html#more-3033

Claims 131% more efficient in morning light & 76% more effieient in the evening

http://www.surfacepower.ie/

Just spotted this on Meta-efficient today

http://www.siliconrepublic.com/news/article/12223/randd/mayo-firm-top-for-solar-panels

Further info from Silicon Republic,

“Our solar panel has been compared to 52 other collectors, which hold the prestigious Solar Keymark certification, and the results of the comparative testing are excellent.

The biggest difference that was achieved in comparison results was against flat plate collectors."

So the huge percentages above aren't compared against the current best products.

quentingargan

These panels are the same as all other Chinese vacuum flask systems. The reason they benefit over flatplate panels is because they passively track the sun.

In fact, Chinese vacuum flasks work better in the morning and evening than they do during the daytime. This is known as "incidence angle modifier" and is caused by tubes reflecting light into each other. You will find this feature on any Chinese Panel test.

For example, see test results here, where one Chinese panel is 40% more effective with the sun at an angle of 55 degrees.

Nice spin, but nothing new here I'm afraid. There are two thousand factories in China making this sort of panel (literally!). They work well, but you can buy 'em a lot cheaper....;)

boomshackala

The German TUV compared this panel against all the others (vacuum tube) and it came out on top. Are you saying they forgot to test the chineese panels?

quentingargan

boomshackala wrote: »

The German TUV compared this panel against all the others (vacuum tube) and it came out on top. Are you saying they forgot to test the chineese panels?

There are two types of vacuum system - tubes and flasks. The flask type has this incidence angle modifier effect. The "tube" type (e.g. Kingspan / Thermomax) has a flatplate inside a vacuum tube and this doesn't have the incidence angle modifier effect.

Both systems have similar overall performance, but the flask type is far more efficient in the morning and evening time.

jobrok1

Surface Power have a tendency to blow smoke up their own holes.

They can talk the talk. But when it comes down to it you can get just as good, and probably a lot better, products and service elsewhere.

00jes

So Does any of you think that the claim of surface power is true? i am going to get some solar in soon and i want the best panel for my money.

boomshackala

Guys the tests were done by TUV in germany and surface power came first

Is the above statement incorrect?

Tester46

quentingargan wrote: »

There are two types of vacuum system - tubes and flasks. The flask type has this incidence angle modifier effect. The "tube" type (e.g. Kingspan / Thermomax) has a flatplate inside a vacuum tube and this doesn't have the incidence angle modifier effect.

You previously PM'd me with the name of the company in Dublin you are connected with - thanks. Are the tubes sold by that company the very efficient flask type you are talking about here?

My plumber is currently quoting me €6,000 +VAT for what he described as a "3-panel in roof flat face integrated velux solar system". What should I be asking him?

I have the list of parts from that company's website - should I also be asking about:
- the controller
- size of expansion tank (what size - 25l?)
- flat panel or tubes
- heat dump (e.g. a rad)
- integration into my non-pressurised central heating system
- whether 3-coil cylinder (which is extra) is copper or stainless steeland level of insulation (looking for 100mm as it's in a seperate boiler house)
- whether all piping is insulated

I think I should just point him to your website - is that a good idea or should he be talking to someone in particular? PM me if you feel you can't answer that here.

Thanks.

What else?

00jes

What type of test is TUV, is it the same as solar keymark or is it a diffrent type of test?

Do all collectors have to do it?

Tester46

quentingargan wrote: »

These panels are the same as all other Chinese vacuum flask systems. The reason they benefit over flatplate panels is because they passively track the sun.

Nice spin, but nothing new here I'm afraid. There are two thousand factories in China making this sort of panel (literally!). They work well, but you can buy 'em a lot cheaper....;)

I'm not questioning you, but if what you are saying is true i.e. these are just the standard vacuum flask tubes that can be bought cheaper, then how can these guys release a public statement saying the following???

"Thursday, 5 February 2009 – An Irish company today launched the most efficient solar panel ever produced. Surface Power in County Mayo says it plans to create 20 new jobs over the next 12 months with the launch and international distribution of its breakthrough product.
Independent Certification by TUV Rhineland - the world’s leading testing house - has shown that when compared to other leading solar panels the Irish developed panel was in one case as much as 131% more efficient in morning and evening time and 76% more efficient at midday.
"We also expect the international home renovation market to be very strong during the next three years, as our collector is the only pre-packaged vacuum collector on the world market. This leads to quicker, simpler and cheaper installations” added Mr. Quinn."

MickLimk

I'd love to see the numbers on the EN12975 cert to back up what these guys claim. I'd also like to see a price list. Efficiency vs. cost is critical and without these figures, you can interpret and spin data any way you want to...

From what I've been able to find from their website/press release they claim a lightweight panel of 19kgs but don't give any dimensions! How long is a piece of string?

They also claim that "In August of 2008, 40 days of rain, test systems produced 100% of their required hot water on nearly every day. (SP501 Pro)." I know it was a bad summer but I never knew they had different calendars in Mayo, 40 days in August? I could put that down to a typo but who defines 'required hot water' and 'nearly every day'?

From my own experience as an installer, I would disagree with this one: "Vacuum collectors delivered in kit format and increases installation cost and time but more importantly risk of injury to installers.". Maybe it's my own preference but I like the fact that on most tube systems the frame can be assembled and installed separately and the tubes inserted at the very end once all the pressure testing etc has been completed. I think it's a safer way to install.

On their kits brochure, they say you need 4-5 panels for a 300 litre cylinder of hot water. By my calculations, they'd need to be selling each panel for less than €250 to compete on cost with what's already out there.

However, if these guys' product does do exactly as they claim, I'd certainly be very interested in looking at it and supporting an Irish company. If they can produce a solar water heating system that's more efficient than anything that's out there and at the same cost as the Chinese produced ones, that's as easy to install, as cheap and easy to fix in the event of someone throwing a brick up onto a roof, then I think they're on to a winner. However, I remain very sceptical as the info that they have released is very selective.

Just as a note, I have no affiliation with any solar supply company, I have experience with products from many.

BendiBus

MickLimk wrote: »

If they can produce a solar water heating system that's more efficient than anything that's out there and at the same cost as the Chinese produced ones

A bit of an aside, but if their claims are true, and if they have any business sense, I'd expect them to oustource their manufacturing to China anyway. So unless there are significant specific manufacturing requirements, they should have no reason not to be cost competitive.

quentingargan

Tester46 wrote: »

You previously PM'd me with the name of the company in Dublin you are connected with - thanks. Are the tubes sold by that company the very efficient flask type you are talking about here?

Yep. All these flasks are made in China, often re-badged elsewhere. Get a grip - we don't even manufacture glass bottles in Ireland. We certainly don't manufacture flasks.

Tester46 wrote: »

My plumber is currently quoting me €6,000 +VAT for what he described as a "3-panel in roof flat face integrated velux solar system". What should I be asking him?

That seems a bit steep to me...

Tester46 wrote: »

I have the list of parts from that company's website - should I also be asking about:
- the controller
- size of expansion tank (what size - 25l?)
- flat panel or tubes
- heat dump (e.g. a rad)
- integration into my non-pressurised central heating system
- whether 3-coil cylinder (which is extra) is copper or stainless steeland level of insulation (looking for 100mm as it's in a seperate boiler house)
- whether all piping is insulated

The Velux is a flatplate which is properly flashed into the roof, which I prefer. If you are going for flatplate, I think it is better to do the job right and get one that is flashed into the roof, not just plonked on top - especially in windy locations.

The controller will be Velux installer, which is a rebadged Resol one. They're fine.

The expansion vessel must be large enough to take the contents of the panel as well as normal expansion in the event of a power cut. I don't know the volume of water in those panels, but he / (she?) will have worked that out.

The system he is using is a flatplate system. If you want one that will work over a longer season, you could look for tubes. I've no axe to grind - we sell both, but tubes work better in cloudy or cold weather and extend the working season. They are also cheaper and easier to retrofit. The downside to tubes is that they may be aesthetically obtrusive, and you will have to replace the flasks after about 20 years, at a cost of €5 per tube, whereas flatplates have a life of about 40 years.

Yes, you want a heat dump. (s)he may not have included this.

You only need a 3 coil cylinder if you have three systems heating the water, usually oil/gas, solid fuel and solar. You are probably getting a twin coil one, but you should know if the coil is a high surface area one. Most of the cylinders sold for solar don't have a proper solar coil. The surface area should be at least 1/4 sq m per sq me of panel.

The pipework from panel to cylinder should be insulated with insulation rated to 160 degrees. The cylinder will probably have 50mm insulation. This is OK in most situations.

I am a bit concerned that this is in a separate boiler house. I hope you don't use one of those systems that provides instant hot water?

Stainless cylinders are used for systems that have no attic tank. 300L ones are usually stainless. Question - is it 316 (marine grade) or 304 (kitchen sink grade). We sell both, but I prefer the 316....

Phew!:)

Tester46

quentingargan wrote: »

Yep. All these flasks are made in China, often re-badged elsewhere. Get a grip - we don't even manufacture glass bottles in Ireland. We certainly don't manufacture flasks.

Thanks. It's a relief to know I'm not buying a system now which will be made redundant by that crowd in Galway in 6 months!

The system he is using is a flatplate system. If you want one that will work over a longer season, you could look for tubes. I've no axe to grind - we sell both, but tubes work better in cloudy or cold weather and extend the working season. They are also cheaper and easier to retrofit. The downside to tubes is that they may be aesthetically obtrusive, and you will have to replace the flasks after about 20 years, at a cost of €5 per tube, whereas flatplates have a life of about 40 years.

I have called your company for a quote for the tubes-system. I'm not advertising for you, but the price was impressive.

You only need a 3 coil cylinder if you have three systems heating the water, usually oil/gas, solid fuel and solar. You are probably getting a twin coil one, but you should know if the coil is a high surface area one. Most of the cylinders sold for solar don't have a proper solar coil. The surface area should be at least 1/4 sq m per sq me of panel.

Thanks - I will also have a multi-fuel stove with integrated boiler and an oil boiler for back-up. Good to know about the solar coil.

I am a bit concerned that this is in a separate boiler house. I hope you don't use one of those systems that provides instant hot water?

Oops. What do you mean by this? I will have a 3-coil cylinder (your 50mm insulated one) in a new boilerhouse i.e. a room that is attached to, but seperate from, the kitchen. That is because my house is relatively small and there is no other place for them. Is 50mm insulation enough or should I put an old fashioned lagging jacket around it? I'll have instant hot water if the water is hot! Otherwise I'll be lighting a fire in the stove...

I used to have a gas boiler in my old house with a "summer circuit". I turned the lever and it diverted the output to the water tank only and not the rads, which was great for the summer - hot water in 20 mins. Is that possible with my new oil boiler, given that I'll have the stove, the oil boiler and the solar? I'm also planning to have two zones for heating - Zone A is regularly used rooms (upstairs and downstairs) and Zone B is less used rooms (upstairs and downstairs). It's a small old farmhouse house and I'll have thermostatic valves on all the rads, so the zoning may not be as important as I think it is?

Stainless cylinders are used for systems that have no attic tank. 300L ones are usually stainless. Question - is it 316 (marine grade) or 304 (kitchen sink grade). We sell both, but I prefer the 316....

My system will be a non-pressurised one due to the multi-fuel boiler-stove (which is a cornerstone of our new heating policy!). Because of that, we reckon we can have a 200L copper tank (to go with a 30-tube solar panel for 3-4 people).

Phew!:)

Thanks for all your advice and effort - much appreciated!

quentingargan

Hi Tester,

You can go for 100mm lagging on those cylinders -there is extra lead time, because very few people opt for them (usually the hotpress is too narrow, and the plumbers' knuckles aren't up to the job). However, I find most heat loss at the cylinder comes from careless insulation of the points where the fittings go into the cylinder. I usually get some 1.5" and 2" insulation and put that over the outside of the other insulation and stuff it right up against the cylinder, so that all the brass fittings are covered. I also cover over the immersion heater etc.

In relation to the secondary return, this is a system some people use when the cylinder is far away - they leave a pump running hot water in a loop around the house so there is instant hot water at the taps. Very wasteful... Hotels use if all the time, and it wastes a lot of heat.

You can still use the quick hot water system, but hopefully for most of the summer you won't need it.

Zoning is quite important, though you are using it differently. In a normal house the sitting room is zoned for 21 degrees and the rest of the house for 18. But zoning areas seldom used makes a lot of sense. Your hot water can be a third zone, used only after 6.00pm on days when the panels didn't do the necessary...

All the best, Q

long

Hello everybody, I have two very different experiences of solar panels , very bad & very good.
I'm originally from Mullingar my mother got solar panels fitted in March '06.
The system has a 200 or a 250L tank. the house is facing perfectly south & the highest that the water has ever got is 46 degrees. I'm not going to say the name of this company but its rediculous that rubbish like this can be sold.
We are a few months moved into our new house & my husband is after buying the a solar panel system from a different company. The tank is 300L, this system is heating all the water that I need. The shower is used twice a day and whatever amount of water is used at the kitchen sink etc. the temperature in the tank was at 53 after today. its installed about three to four weeks & i havn't have had to use the oil to heat the water since it was put in. I got the plumbers that installed our system to look at my mothers house. They said the system is installed properly and couldn't find anything wrong with it so its down to the panels not being good enough.

quentingargan

Tester46 wrote: »

I'm not questioning you, but if what you are saying is true i.e. these are just the standard vacuum flask tubes that can be bought cheaper, then how can these guys release a public statement saying the following???

"Thursday, 5 February 2009 – An Irish company today launched the most efficient solar panel ever produced. Surface Power in County Mayo says it plans to create 20 new jobs over the next 12 months with the launch and international distribution of its breakthrough product.
Independent Certification by TUV Rhineland - the world’s leading testing house - has shown that when compared to other leading solar panels the Irish developed panel was in one case as much as 131% more efficient in morning and evening time and 76% more efficient at midday.
"We also expect the international home renovation market to be very strong during the next three years, as our collector is the only pre-packaged vacuum collector on the world market. This leads to quicker, simpler and cheaper installations” added Mr. Quinn."

I've looked all over both their site and the TUV site for data and can't find it. As others have said here, if it was that good, being the slick marketeers they appear to be, surely there would be links to the original document? I'm open to being corrected on this if someone can find that test data.

What is unusual about their system (but not unique) is that they are using a U tube pipework in the panel instead of heat pipes - it is something most Chinese suppliers have been doing for some time as it is cheaper to manufacture (but more expensive to ship). I like that idea for some situations (e.g. flat roof installations) but it doesn't change the efficiency all that much in panels mounted at normal roof angles.

Three years ago, I had experience of these people leading customers to believe that their customers that their vacuum flask systems were made in Mayo, and that their 600 watt wind generators were made there also. I think the key here is the use of the words "Irish Developed". That's marketing for you... What is involved in development? Sourcing it? Putting a logo on it? Changing the size of a pipe fitting??

I've nothing against Chinese goods - I sell their vacuum flasks myself and like them, though I have found wind turbines from China to be terribly unreliable and am opting for a Korean generator for our own turbine.

long

Well coincidently the panels that we are after getting fitted are manufactured in China buy the company in Mayo. We got them through a company in Tullamore. I think they're the only other distributer of these panels in Ireland. The panels that are on my mother's house are vacum tubes, i'm after finding out that it's a company from northern Ireland that sell them. They're not a u-tube design just a normal heat pipe. It took ages to put them up on the roof, like lego.
The panels on our house were put on by 2 plumbers, they started at 9am and I think they were finished shortly after dinner.

MickLimk

long wrote: »

Hello everybody, I have two very different experiences of solar panels , very bad & very good.
I'm originally from Mullingar my mother got solar panels fitted in March '06.
The system has a 200 or a 250L tank. the house is facing perfectly south & the highest that the water has ever got is 46 degrees. I'm not going to say the name of this company but its rediculous that rubbish like this can be sold.
We are a few months moved into our new house & my husband is after buying the a solar panel system from a different company. The tank is 300L, this system is heating all the water that I need. The shower is used twice a day and whatever amount of water is used at the kitchen sink etc. the temperature in the tank was at 53 after today. its installed about three to four weeks & i havn't have had to use the oil to heat the water since it was put in. I got the plumbers that installed our system to look at my mothers house. They said the system is installed properly and couldn't find anything wrong with it so its down to the panels not being good enough.

long wrote: »

Well coincidently the panels that we are after getting fitted are manufactured in China buy the company in Mayo. We got them through a company in Tullamore. I think they're the only other distributer of these panels in Ireland. The panels that are on my mother's house are vacum tubes, i'm after finding out that it's a company from northern Ireland that sell them. They're not a u-tube design just a normal heat pipe. It took ages to put them up on the roof, like lego.
The panels on our house were put on by 2 plumbers, they started at 9am and I think they were finished shortly after dinner.

To be honest Long, I'm wondering whether or not you have any connection with the company in Mayo or the distributor in Tullamore that you mention? If you have, can you post details of the EN12975 cert that these new panels got?

Either way, there are many reasons why the solar setup on your mother's house may be underperforming and asking a competitor who is undoubtedly trying to promote their technology mightn't be the most independent way of getting an opinion on it! If you really want to check the performance of the system on your mother's house, then I'd recommend getting in touch with the original installer or asking a competent, independent installer to have a look. There's no doubt there are plenty of cowboys out there but I wouldn't give up on a system that's underperforming without due diligence...

cul_irl

Hi Q, PM'd you there about getting a solar system installed.

Thanks,
Cul

Heroditas

I met the Surface Power directors last year. For a company who claim to have such an innovative cutting-edge product, their claim that they didn't want to sell, in their own words, "too many systems" sounded dubious.
They must be the only company in the world that didn't want to sell as much of their product as possible.

Oh, and ZOMBIE THREAD!!!! Muaaaaaaargggghhhhhhh :pac:

funnyname

Up for an award, got existing solar panels, wonder would these be a better option.

http://www.irishtimes.com/business/innovation-finalists-the-energy-driving-ireland-s-brightest-and-best-1.2120318

Macha

OK, I think 6 years definitely qualifies this as a zombie thread. *loads shotgun*