A good low gain 30 or 40 watt Marshall tube amp/head?

seachto7

After all the threads on the pros and cons of the vox ac30, I have yet to come across many posts slating marshalls. they seem to be good work horse amps.

So, are there any that wouldn't necessarily be high gain? I would use my own pedals, but say, around 30 or 40 watts max? I couldn't find any on thomann, but maybe didn't look hard enough.

could be a good workhorse of an amp..

boycey

The bluesbreaker re-issue would be lower gain, ferociously loud though apparently.
Or if you have a few quid squirreled away theres the 1974x and 2061x handwired ones. I havent played through a bluesbreaker so I cant really give you an opinion on those, Ive played the 1974x combo though and the 2061x head & cab- I was very impressed. Right up my alley in a british blues invasion kind of way. OR Ceriatone for a quality clone- Spoonbadger would be the man to ask about them!

Eoin Madsen

Maybe a JTM45...?

Clones are probably the way to go, if you can't get your hands on something original. Metroamp.com make the best Marshall clone going, hands down, and there is a forum with posters who have probably built more guitar amps than I've even played.

Wattages of a valve amp is dictated by the design of the output stage. Basically, an AC30 is 30 watts because it uses a quad of EL84s. Just a pair of EL84s would usually produce around 15 watts. Marshalls tended towards using EL34s in the output stage, so the amps are usually 45/50 watts (pair) or 100 watts (quad). A Marshall 2204 has a 50 watt output stage, but, having a master volume, it would arguably be much more usable at low volume than an AC30, even though it's capable of greater output. Because of the preamp, the total frequency response is totally different as well, so it's quite difficult to actually compare the level by ear. I would not put too much emphasis on the wattage, basically. There are more important factors!

Dord

Marshall mod. 1974 18watt.

spoonbadger

seachto7 wrote: »

After all the threads on the pros and cons of the vox ac30, I have yet to come across many posts slating marshalls. they seem to be good work horse amps.

So, are there any that wouldn't necessarily be high gain? I would use my own pedals, but say, around 30 or 40 watts max? I couldn't find any on thomann, but maybe didn't look hard enough.

could be a good workhorse of an amp..

The low gain marshalls are the best ones .

If that's what you're looking for,then what you really need is a bluesbreaker or a JTM45. They're considered the best amps in the low-gain bluesy market. Unfortunately, a marshall BB reissue or JTM reissue is gonna cost you a ton new, and they aren't half as good as the originals. Like Eoin said, clones are the way to go, but i'd recomend ceriatone over metroamp anyday.

Ceriatone are cheaper than metroamp, just as good and will add just about anything you want for dirt cheap. I bought a JTM45 clone from them (just the electronics) for 600€ including a master volume mod added and shipping from malaysia where they're based and it's the greatest amp i've ever played. Perfect low gain marshall.

Along with a cabinet and speakers, i now have my own version of a bluesbreaker for under 1000€, and better than any marshall. That's the route i recomend .

Heres some stuff to check out...
http://ceriatone.com/tlbrBorderSub/CeriatoneSale.htm
http://ceriatone.com/productSubPages/BSJTM45/BSJTM45.htm
http://ceriatone.com/productSubPages/BSJTM45BB/BSJTM45BB.htm

And just so you know, the bluesbreaker is the combo version of the JTM45 (which is just a head).
Back in the 60's that was the only difference, everything else was the same. Nowadays, the term bluesbreaker refers to an amp with the same circuit as a JTM45, in a combo amp, but with a tremolo control added.

Voodu Child

seachto7 wrote: »

After all the threads on the pros and cons of the vox ac30, I have yet to come across many posts slating marshalls.

There are more amp brands out there than just Marshall and Vox :pac:

Look at Orange, Cornford, Laney, Rivera, Blackstar, etc. There is a whole range of quality amps at various price ranges that may or may not suit you.

seachto7

Thanks for all the great info.

Yep, voodoo child, I was probably a bit lazy with the "search" function...:o

felim

spoonbadger wrote: »

i'd recomend ceriatone

Ceriatone have a Silver Jubilee clone coming soon. The Silver Jube is the best Marshall I've played.

Red Sleeping Beauty

seachto7 wrote: »

After all the threads on the pros and cons of the vox ac30, I have yet to come across many posts slating marshalls.

They definately exist, wether they're on this forum or not , I don't know

seachto7

Would it be easy to order and build just a head from the likes of the ceriatone website?

freshcream

Can you fit a master volume to a bluesbreaker ? I don't know much about these things

seachto7

I'm also now a bit curious. I'm stoopid when it comes to the guts of an amp, but I know what sounds good when I hear it, so, just looking at the ceriatone site as an example, when I click on the "bluesbreaker" link, I am taken to a page with a list of things, such as a board, trannies, tubes, cabinet etc.
So, if I said "hmmm, I just want to build a head", what should I be ordering?
The board and everything else, or specific things. (obviously not the cabinet)

felim

seachto7 wrote: »

I'm also now a bit curious. I'm stoopid when it comes to the guts of an amp, but I know what sounds good when I hear it, so, just looking at the ceriatone site as an example, when I click on the "bluesbreaker" link, I am taken to a page with a list of things, such as a board, trannies, tubes, cabinet etc.
So, if I said "hmmm, I just want to build a head", what should I be ordering?
The board and everything else, or specific things. (obviously not the cabinet)

I think they'll build it for you if you want...probably a better option if you're "stoopid when it comes to the guts of an amp".

Paolo_M

freshcream wrote: »

Can you fit a master volume to a bluesbreaker ? I don't know much about these things

You can fit a master volume to any amp, the question is which type to go for.

The are two major categories, pre phase inverter and post phase inverter, and many variations of each type. IMO a PPMIV called the LarMar is the best sounding one.

Master volumes are suit more metal oriented, high gain amps as the major tone factor is the pre amp. The master volume lets you drive the pre amp flat out and reduce the signal level to the power amp either before or after the phase inverter.

In the case of the bluesbreaker I would say the power amp is the major contributor to the "beano" tone. The preamp does not produce much gain in this amp and the "bite" and creamy overdrive is mostly generated by the power amp. For that reason I think you'd be better served with an attenuator. An attenuator sits between the amp and speaker and basically soaks up power to reduce the level sent to the speaker but let's you drive the power amp pretty hard to get "that" tone.

You could put a master volume in the bluesbreaker but I think you'd disappointed with the results.

So, if I said "hmmm, I just want to build a head", what should I be ordering?
The board and everything else, or specific things. (obviously not the cabinet)

+1 on what Felim said. If your not sure what to order then it would be best to either order one pre built or if you know someone who's built amps before maybe they could help you out.

Eoin Madsen

spoonbadger wrote: »

Like Eoin said, clones are the way to go, but i'd recomend ceriatone over metroamp anyday.

Ceriatone are cheaper than metroamp, just as good and will add just about anything you want for dirt cheap. I bought a JTM45 clone from them (just the electronics) for 600€ including a master volume mod added and shipping from malaysia where they're based and it's the greatest amp i've ever played. Perfect low gain marshall.

The components on the Ceriatone boards are lower quality (eg, carbon comps vs carbon films, mallory rather than sozo caps, the actual board is lower quality material and cut arseways), and the transformers are not of particularly great quality (vs Heyboers or Mercury Magnetics transformers etc). There were also different problems with both of my Ceriatone orders, including a package which disappeared in the post (I paid for DHL but it was dispatched some other way). Both orders took more than six weeks to arrive. I don't mean to be ragging on Nik, as he was very helpful and accomodating, if a little inattentive to what I was actually asking for. But, to be fair, George at Metroamp is just as accomodating. My three orders with Metroamp went off without a hitch and arrived within a couple of weeks in every case. And the support on the forum is unequalled. Hell, they even help people with their Ceriatone builds.

Eoin Madsen

seachto7 wrote: »

I'm also now a bit curious. I'm stoopid when it comes to the guts of an amp, but I know what sounds good when I hear it, so, just looking at the ceriatone site as an example, when I click on the "bluesbreaker" link, I am taken to a page with a list of things, such as a board, trannies, tubes, cabinet etc.
So, if I said "hmmm, I just want to build a head", what should I be ordering?
The board and everything else, or specific things. (obviously not the cabinet)

Everything, unless you're sourcing some components elsewhere. If it's a head, the "cabinet" sometimes refers to the head cabinet, which is the wooden box the chassis goes into. I would seriously not recommend a large amp for a first build. Even with the board prewired, it's a pretty messy undertaking, and not especially safe.

Eoin Madsen

Incidentally, despite the fact that parts cost less, it is not cheaper to make a DIY kit amp. You'll end up buying a whole lot more stuff (tools and extra parts etc.) and spending a hell of a lot of time doing research before you manage to make something that actually works. It's worth doing purely because it's fun and there's a kick out of making an amp and tweaking it to suit yourself. But it doesn't save money.

freshcream

You could put a master volume in the bluesbreaker but I think you'd disappointed with the results.


Oh I see thanks for the help.:o

spoonbadger

Eoin Madsen wrote: »

Everything, unless you're sourcing some components elsewhere. If it's a head, the "cabinet" sometimes refers to the head cabinet, which is the wooden box the chassis goes into. I would seriously not recommend a large amp for a first build. Even with the board prewired, it's a pretty messy undertaking, and not especially safe.

+1.

Op, i would not recomend trying to build an amp like a JTM or a bluesbreaker if you dont have experience with these things. For 70€ extra Nik (the ceriatone guy) will build it for you. Not to be pessimistic, but you haven't a hope if you try something like that as a first build with no electronics experience .

And i dont know what the story was with your shipping Eoin, but i got my amp in 6 days from the time he shipped it with no hassle. And he was spot on with all my requests, he even helped me to pick out the amp i was looking for!.

And yeah, ceriatone dont use quite the same comps as metroamp, but there is nothing wrong with mallory caps!!. I dont think it warrants the difference in price (although you're right about the transformers, there is a definite difference in quality there).

Freshcream, you obviously wont be able to get cranked bluesbreaker tone just by adding a master volume and setting it to "1", but that's not the point of an MV. If you want perfect BB overdrive then you either need to crank it or get some kind of attenuator .

boycey

Ive another but quite different suggestion!
Randall RG 50 TC or the equivalent head version (my jamming buddy has one, Feylya too).

2 channel 4 mode 1x12 combo or head.
Master volume with reverb & fx loop.

Clean channel with a very nice boost function. Being an oul wanna-be blues rocker I could happily live with just that. Once you get to grips with setting the volume vs. master volume and then using the boost function you have a nice low gain set up that'll still snarl when you dig in.

Then you have the durrty channel!
Green mode for a classic crunch and beyond sound- theres some great AC/DC type tones in there with plenty more gain on tap.
Red mode gives you a smoother gain saturated type of sound made for a big ballad solo.
Thats my take on it, Feylya could probably add more coming from a metal loving nonemoreblack fleet fingered perspective! Very good amps at a very good price.

seachto7

I have ZERO electronics/electrics experience, but for an extra €70 I would happily let yer man build it for me at ceriatone.

So you folks think ceriatone might be the way?

I would mainly be into the likes of swervedriver, soundgarden, some post rock style music too, so wouldn't necessarily be needing high gain (ala Metallica). I like to use my fuzz pedal (zoom ultra fuzz or a big muff) when it comes to blowing my load.

I'll check out those randalls....

Eoin Madsen

I think you should play some more amps before you buy one.

See if you can try some of the Marshall reissues in a shop. They definitely had a JTM45 and a JCM800 in Musicmaker at one stage. If you find something you like, then look at clones on the internet.

If I was playing Soundgarden I'd probably want something like a 50 watt JCM800.

seachto7

Thanks for the heads up Eoin. I'm in no rush to buy an amp at the moment.
I used to have a 60Wt fender bllues deville, and even when I was gigging it in proper venues, it was just too loud. I would have turned it up to about 2 or 3 max.

So maybe comparing a 50Wt jcm800 to a 60Wt blues deville is like comparing apples and oranges...??

That's why I was considering a 30 or 40 Wt.

I have played 40Wt fenders and they seem to be, headroom wise, what I should have gotten.

So, you could say "why not just get the fender then?". I suppose I just want to see what options are out there really...

EDIT: I just checked out the JCM800 on youtube. I should have stressed it's later day Soundgarden rather than the early stuff, (down on the upside). The few demos I listened to of the JCM800 sounded like the darkeness or similar type rock. So maybe a Marshall would be wasted on me, as I wouldn't need the distortion really....

Fingers Mcginty

I have a 50watt Engl screamer and i only dial it up to 4 for gigs and even at that it's still a bit on the loud side.

seachto7

yeah, maybe I should steer clear of Marshall altogether. I'd lobe to be turning the amp up halfways at least to get it cooking....

Eoin Madsen

JCM800 does a nice clean. Seriously, play one first. Watching someone else get a tone from an amp (and then listening to a bad recording of it badly encoded) really doesn't tell you much about an amp.

The Blues Deville is a lower grade of amp to be honest. A JCM800 might be more comparable to a Twin or something along those lines. They both have distinctive and very different sounds.

In terms of headroom, even a good 30 watt valve amp will have a lot. It can be hard to compare. I'd suggest trying to get the tone right first, and then you can think about an attenuator if the volume is proving to be excessive.

seachto7

I agree with playing amps, absolutely.
I just checked out some samples of the Laney 30 watts on their site. I must try and see if I can play one of those..
I also would like to check out a peavey classic 30 head, but will totally not rule out marshalls either..

As you say, it's a case of playing them. Hopefully xmusic has a range of different makes to try out...