Triathlon Conditioning?

maxxie

What kind of weight training would you do to prepare for a triathlon? Also how many sets, reps, what kinda weight?

Remmy

Have you training for the three disciplines underway?If so I'd just be working on building up general physical strength with low enough reps.The exercises i would focus on would be squats,deadlift,press and benchpress.I don't think weights are altogether necessary for training for a triathlon though.

--amadeus--

Triathlon training is VERY time intensive. As a general rule if you have (for arguments sake) 45 mins available for a training session you are better dedicating that session to one of the 3 tri disciplines rather than doing any form of cross training.

That said I'm a runner and I'm only going by what tri types have told me. You'll probably get a detailed answer here though

Roper

When is the triathlon for a start? I'm currently training someone who is doing an Ironman and we're doing regular strength training and prehab work.

tunney

--amadeus-- wrote: »

Triathlon training is VERY time intensive. As a general rule if you have (for arguments sake) 45 mins available for a training session you are better dedicating that session to one of the 3 tri disciplines rather than doing any form of cross training.

That said I'm a runner and I'm only going by what tri types have told me. You'll probably get a detailed answer here though

Dunno who said that but strength and conditioning are a huge and integral part of multi-sports training.

--amadeus--

tunney wrote: »

Dunno who said that but strength and conditioning are a huge and integral part of multi-sports training.

Different levels though remember Tunney - some of us have lives as well as training!

I was working on the assumption that the OP is a relative newcomer to Tri and is aiming at Oly or Sprint distance. An experienced Triathlete aiming at HIM or Im distance would take a different approach. But you know the principle of specificity of training as well as I do - if teh OP is sacrificing a run or pool time to do weights he's probably making a mistake. If he is already doing as much running, biking and swimming as is possible and still has a few hours training time available then of course weights will help. In the real world though training time is restricted and you are generally better mimicking the stresses of actual competition through specific training rather than lifting weights.

But like I said, that's just an opinion

Roper

Not that I'm disagreeing... but!

Everyone should do a pre-season strengthening programme, even endurance athletes and even amateurs. Maybe even especially amateurs since they're less likely to be accustomed to the training load required and more susceptable to injury. How much better would your swim be with stronger shoulders? How much better would your cycle be with stronger legs and less restricted hips?

BossArky

Last year I was caught half way between training triathlon and lifting weights. I wasn't sure which one I wanted to focus on - as I wanted to be fast and cardio fit, as well as strong.

I ended up posting crappy triathlon times and making slow progress weights-wise as any extra cals were being eaten by the cardio.

Heavy weights (relatively) increased my bodyweight. This slowed me down on the run and bike hills. Stronger lats did help give me a stronger front crawl. I'll credit pull ups and rows for that.

My bodyweight stayed consistent enough around 72/73kgs and my diet and calorie intake was pretty similar to today.

Towards the end of the year I dropped the triathlon training and focused just on weights. I've gained almost 5kg since then (muscle - yay).

If I wanted to do well in a triathlon I would do more running / swimming / cycling ... and not spend much time in the gym at all. Perhaps bodyweight exercises plus pull ups and some home dumbbell rows / presses / lunges would be the weights I'd work on.

I'm no expert in either tri or weights - just my personal experience in case it helps.

kerinsp

Is it a sprint triathlon?

I hope to do one for the first time myself this year and I will not be doing any strength training. When I have some free time to train, I'll be doing swimming lessons, jogging and maybe getting out on the bike for 20k.

--amadeus--

Strengthening and weight work is supposed to be good for injury avoidance and most athletes full stop (runners, cyclists, swimmers or all three) would probably benefit from a well thought out and structured weights program. Absolutley no argument there.

Don't get me wrong - I see where you are coming from. But I think that in the "real world" your average amateur athlete will be sacrificing run/bike or swim time to get in and lift weights and I'm not convinced that's right. As you move up the distances and gain experience and so increasing your training loads then weights may play a bigger part. But if an absolute beginner has a choice between hitting the gym for an hour or working thier weakest dicipline then I'm not sure that's a hard choice to make.

BA has a good point as well - aim at too many targets and you won't hit any. He gained muscle when he dropped tri. Had he dropped weight training and focussed on tri I would imagine his tri times would have improved. With so much else (family, work, whatever) going on having multiple (possibly conflicting) exercise goals can end up just leaving you frustrated.

tunney

--amadeus-- wrote: »

Strengthening and weight work is supposed to be good for injury avoidance and most athletes full stop (runners, cyclists, swimmers or all three) would probably benefit from a well thought out and structured weights program. Absolutley no argument there.

Don't get me wrong - I see where you are coming from. But I think that in the "real world" your average amateur athlete will be sacrificing run/bike or swim time to get in and lift weights and I'm not convinced that's right. As you move up the distances and gain experience and so increasing your training loads then weights may play a bigger part. But if an absolute beginner has a choice between hitting the gym for an hour or working thier weakest dicipline then I'm not sure that's a hard choice to make.

BA has a good point as well - aim at too many targets and you won't hit any. He gained muscle when he dropped tri. Had he dropped weight training and focussed on tri I would imagine his tri times would have improved. With so much else (family, work, whatever) going on having multiple (possibly conflicting) exercise goals can end up just leaving you frustrated.

As much as I enjoy taking the advice of random punters on the net, I think I'll go with the advice of my qualified and experience coach and do the triathlon appropriate strength and conditioning programmes I'm told to.

Sangre

tunney wrote: »

As much as I enjoy taking the advice of random punters on the net, I think I'll go with the advice of my qualified and experience coach and do the triathlon appropriate strength and conditioning programmes I'm told to.

Why exactly do you post on this forum then other to receive advice or give advice (as a random punter on the net)?

tunney

Sangre wrote: »

Why exactly do you post on this forum then other to receive advice or give advice (as a random punter on the net)?

I do take advice from people on boards. But I'll always value that of a professional above someone on boards.

In this specific instance I was merely pointing out that the advice of a particular poster, who in his own words isn't into or doesn't partake in the sport, conflicted with the advice that the majority of qualified coaches would give.

A roundabout way you could say of suggesting that in this instance the poster was very much mistaken.

--amadeus--

tunney wrote: »

A roundabout way you could say of suggesting that in this instance the poster was very much mistaken.

You and I have been through this before and we'll never agree. You have a focus and dedication to your training that many (most) cannot replicate. As such my opinion is that your advice is often not applicable, certainly to novices. That's the beauty of boards, we both say our bits and people get to join in! And while you have the luxury of a pro coach the OP doesn't and was looking for info and opinions. Which are like bums, we all have one...

Anyway since you won't trust a "random punter":

Third Principle: Holding onto the first two principles, create more force.

This is where people get the Specificity Principle screwed up. In an effort to develop more
muscle force, they do things like squats or “big gear” bike work. While those activities
might develop more force, they do so over a too-slow velocity of motion, or over the
wrong range of motion. Leg presses are done far too slowly (and too forcefully) to induce
the aerobic power adaptations that you want. You can get yourself enormously powerful
doing squats at a leg extension speed of a second or so. But it will do you little good
when you ask your legs to extend in a third of a second, over and over again. When you
try to speed up the muscle, the required energy system shifts, and you have little hope of
supplying your muscles with oxygen.

You must maintain adherence to the first two principles even as you seek to increase
your muscular force.

The amount of force you want to develop in your muscles is the amount of force that can
be performed at the velocity of motion your sport requires, and at an amount of force that
can be repeated over and over again. Which leads to the fourth principle…

From here

Take as many pops as you want at my background - but I know a little bit about endurance training and I've spent enough time with triathletes to have picked up a few basics

Roper

Who said anything about specifity? Who said anything about using the leg press or the squat to "replicate" cycling or running? It's about injury prevention, strength and balance, not about trying to do your cycling or swimming in the gym.

As for your point about dedication versus "casual" athletes, I agree in part but one hour per week could save you 6 weeks out of training.

Brian?

Roper wrote: »

Not that I'm disagreeing... but!

Everyone should do a pre-season strengthening programme, even endurance athletes and even amateurs. Maybe even especially amateurs since they're less likely to be accustomed to the training load required and more susceptable to injury. How much better would your swim be with stronger shoulders? How much better would your cycle be with stronger legs and less restricted hips?

I agree absolutly. I started training for a tri last year, had to jack it in due to a knee injury, and found that strength training really helped.

The only thing I'd say is, don't do a heavy deadlift/back session and try to swim a km in the pool straight after. It'll take you a week to recover from that kind of stupidity.

thirtyfoot

Does anyone have any suggestions for the OP regarding reps and sets?

Tunney what does your coach have you doing right now and say back in Oct and forward in May. Does he supervise your lifting? What specific S&C do you do in-season and how do you maintain strength in-season when racing more? Is there an obvious synch with what you are doing on the road?

Just interested as from a shorter running perspective thats the key, marrying what you do in the gym to what you do on the track. Would be interested to know what weights you lift when putting in lots of mileage at this time of the year for example?

Brian?

Tingle wrote: »

Does anyone have any suggestions for the OP regarding reps and sets?

I'm sure Roper will correct me if I'm wrong, but I'd 5x5 training on the big compound lifts.

thirtyfoot

briankeating wrote: »

I'm sure Roper will correct me if I'm wrong, but I'd 5x5 training on the big compound lifts.

All year round? In October when running 60-70 miles a week, running, swimming, cycling up to 8-12 times a week? Do you continue to do the same weights when starting 'speedwork' in spring or racing in the summer?

Thats where I'd see a problem with people saying you have to do weights even if you are an endurance athlete as its not that easy. Applying regular 'fitness' gym protocols to a totally different animal. Applying a relevant strength program taking into account what the athlete is doing in their fundamental training in the pool or road is very hard I'd imagine for an endurance athlete. Thats why I'm asking the question, has anyone ever actually done it as opposed to applying what they may do in the gym themselves.

Roper - you say you have applied a strength program to an ironman. I'd be interested to know what they did and how it matched up to their training out of the gym, did it include lifting or just general body conditioning? I struggle to fit in 3 weight sessions a week and we only train 5 times a week, I'd imagine it must be very hard to do if you do double training days like many endurance athletes will.

Roper

Tingle wrote: »

Roper - you say you have applied a strength program to an ironman. I'd be interested to know what they did and how it matched up to their training out of the gym, did it include lifting or just general body conditioning? I struggle to fit in 3 weight sessions a week and we only train 5 times a week, I'd imagine it must be very hard to do if you do double training days like many endurance athletes will.

Just to correct, I am currently in the process of training someone who is training for an ironman, and I've never done this specific event before. This is a first for me, although I have helped with marathon runners and some endurance athletes before.

I have no reason to believe that Ironman is any different from any sporting competition in terms of basic balanced strength and stability requirements. Just because it's over greater distances doesn't mean suddenly people are cycling backwards or hopping on one foot. You need to be strong and balanced to remain injury free no matter what you're doing. That could be a 25 mile cycle or a 10 second sprint.

I wouldn't go near 5x5. It would be crazy to ask someone to do heavy lifts twice or 3 times per week and have doms all week around when they had 800m in the pool the next day, or 10k to run later on. So all the work I'm doing with this athlete is based around mobility and strengthening weaknesses. I can't replace training, the actual miles you need to clock up, but I can make it easier.

For an example (and I'm pulling numbers out of my proverbial) if strength and flexibility training could add one inch of extra freedom to your hips and so 3 inches more to your stride, how many less footstrikes would you have over distance? How many would that equate to over an entire training period. I don't know the exact answer to that but I'm going to say enough to be worth an extra one or two hours per week.

--amadeus--

Roper wrote: »

Who said anything about specifity? Who said anything about using the leg press or the squat to "replicate" cycling or running? It's about injury prevention, strength and balance, not about trying to do your cycling or swimming in the gym.

As for your point about dedication versus "casual" athletes, I agree in part but one hour per week could save you 6 weeks out of training.

I started talking about "specificity" because it is the most important concept to understand when you begin an endurance training program. There is a misconception that more strength = better performance and that's not strictly true. As you know your body adapts to the specific stresses that you place on it so you need to make these stresses as close to teh event experience as it is possible. So if you want to run/bike/swim you need to practice running, biking and swimming.

But I think we are arguing the same point from opposite sides.

Will strength and conditioning help in a triathlon? Of course, improved core strength is a huge benefit - in running for example - and greater flexibility will, as you said, improve stride length.

Will strength work reduce injuries? Absolutely - one of teh key triggers for injury in endurance athletes is muscle strength imbalance, gym work can correct that.

Should a good, well balanced tri training plan include gym work? Again yes, in an ideal world 3 sessions of weights a week would generate benefits and there are studies to back this.

Where there is a difference is over this:

No gym strength sessions are planned. The hours are already quite high for the average working person and most people will benefit with more rest rather than hitting the gym and requiring further recovery.

From here

My point is that a "real world" a triathlete in training will already be doing a lot of training. If they can add 2 - 3 gym sessions on top of the standard training program then they will benefit (assuming adequate recovery). But I would be surprised if anyone recommended sacrificing core training time to do gym strength work.

Poncherello

Enjoying this discussion
In response to the OP and I only have a couple of seasons of tri's behind me....
In the off season I do as much weights as possible. Always do squats to warm up no matter what area of my body I am working on. I do sets(3/4) very quickly with little or no breaks between sets. Also move from excercise to excercise as quick as possible. When working upper body I like to get straight in to pool and do a hard swim. When concentrating on legs do a run or cycle.
Around now I am concentrating on getting out and putting in the mileage but will always try and get in a couple of weights sessions a week.
Anyway thats what works for me

tunney

Tingle wrote: »

Does anyone have any suggestions for the OP regarding reps and sets?

Tunney what does your coach have you doing right now and say back in Oct and forward in May. Does he supervise your lifting? What specific S&C do you do in-season and how do you maintain strength in-season when racing more? Is there an obvious synch with what you are doing on the road?

Just interested as from a shorter running perspective thats the key, marrying what you do in the gym to what you do on the track. Would be interested to know what weights you lift when putting in lots of mileage at this time of the year for example?

My S&C routine breaks down to the following

Upper
Lat pull down
Seated row
Tricep Extension
Bench
Bent over row
Upright row

Lower
Leg press
leg extensions
Hamstring curls
Calf raises
Step ups
Lunges
Deadlift

Core
Crunch
Bicycle
Dorsal Raises
V set
Bum lifts
Plank
Left plank
Right plank
Pike

Core work is done 3 times a week. Takes 10 minutes.
Gym work is done 1-2 a week depending on the week. Takes 30 minutes.
Up to mid January its 2x12. May seem high rep but in the context of a triathlon its not. From mid-January for a couple of months it will be 1x12 and 1x8. During the season it would be one session a week and 2x12 or 2x15.

Even the 1x12,1x8 sessions screw your running for the week so i really would not fancy 5x5. The goal isn't to but on huge amounts of muscle.

For me S&C has been one of the biggest contributors to being able to increase my training volume. Yes I'm "sacraficing" an hour a week between the lot but that hour "lost" means I can train more consistently and minimise the risk of injuries.

I don't view weight as some to supplement my core training, it *is* part of my core training.

hunnymonster

Tunney, In 2007 you argued with me that strength work should only be done in the down season. I'm glad to see the change now but I have to agree with Amadeus's pov for a noob who is only discovering the joys of multisport. Learning to swim, bike, run as best you can will be the first priority so long as there are no obvious mechanical issues to be worked on.

OP, My gym sessions would be very similar to Tunney's and if you do want to include S&C work, it would be a very good place to start. I would add lateral raises to the upperbody and substitute squats for the leg press. I'm also not a fan of machines for leg extension and curls so would drop them for most newbies. I also do a fair bit of my core work using medicine and swiss balls and add in some balance stuff as that is where I am particularly weak.

If I was training for triathlon at this time of year, I would be doing 2-3x12 of each (when this starts to feel safe, I'd go as far as 3x15 before increasing the weight). As it happens, I am finding it hard enough to keep swimming and cycling ticking over in preparation for my March (running) race so my strength work is very sporadic at the moment.

tunney

hunnymonster wrote: »

Tunney, In 2007 you argued with me that strength work should only be done in the down season. I'm glad to see the change now but I have to agree with Amadeus's pov for a noob who is only discovering the joys of multisport. Learning to swim, bike, run as best you can will be the first priority so long as there are no obvious me.

[/QUOTE]

I still don't think that you can focus on strength work all year but I've a much better understanding of the importance of S&C. I also think for all but the "want to do a triathlon before i'm 30/40" crowd S&C is a must.

hunnymonster wrote: »

OP, My gym sessions would be very similar to Tunney's and if you do want to include S&C work, it would be a very good place to start. I would add lateral raises to the upperbody and substitute squats for the leg press.

I should be doing squats as well but despite the best efforts of many many people I just cannot get the technique right and end up doing more damage than good.

thirtyfoot

tunney wrote: »

My S&C routine breaks down to the following

Upper
Lat pull down
Seated row
Tricep Extension
Bench
Bent over row
Upright row

Lower
Leg press
leg extensions
Hamstring curls
Calf raises
Step ups
Lunges
Deadlift

What kind of recovery do you take between exercises and does it change based on the time of the year? Do you do any hills?

thirtyfoot

tunney wrote: »

Core
Crunch
Bicycle
Dorsal Raises
V set
Bum lifts
Plank
Left plank
Right plank
Pike

Core work is done 3 times a week. Takes 10 minutes.

We do something like this as part of our dynamic warmup. Everyone hates core but since its part of the warmup and everyone is relaxed and chatting it flashes by and we are all warmed and we have done a bit of core too at every training session. Maybe not exactly the same exercises or as difficult but similar. Its something a lot of runners could do at home before heading out on a run.

Roper

--amadeus-- wrote: »

I started talking about "specificity" because it is the most important concept to understand when you begin an endurance training program. There is a misconception that more strength = better performance and that's not strictly true. As you know your body adapts to the specific stresses that you place on it so you need to make these stresses as close to teh event experience as it is possible. So if you want to run/bike/swim you need to practice running, biking and swimming.

I actually think that trying to replicate the work you do on the road inside the 4 walls of the gym is probably the reason why people shun strength programmes pre season, they equate it with injury and if you try to over specialise in the gym you will end up injurred.

I agree, if you want to run/bike/swim you should do that, but at what expense?

I'm not talking about having triathletes reverse band benching for reps or sumo squatting 200kgs. I'm also not talking about having guys doing heavy bike work in the gym, or squatting for some ridiculous amount of reps I'm just talking about having stability and balance through the whole body, and using strength training to gain that because that's what will help stave off injury and keep you on the road/bike/in the water.

tunney

Tingle wrote: »

What kind of recovery do you take between exercises and does it change based on the time of the year? Do you do any hills?

Recovery - between sets 30-45 seconds.

Hills - plenty of them - on both bike and run.

Brian?

Roper wrote: »

I wouldn't go near 5x5. It would be crazy to ask someone to do heavy lifts twice or 3 times per week and have doms all week around when they had 800m in the pool the next day, or 10k to run later on. So all the work I'm doing with this athlete is based around mobility and strengthening weaknesses. I can't replace training, the actual miles you need to clock up, but I can make it easier.

But what about sacrificing some time from the core disciplines in the off season and doing strength training, i.e. 5x5? Reduce the Km's swimming, cycling and running for a few weeks and then ramp back up the km's and ease back on the strength training. Would this just lead to burnout?

Brian?

Tingle wrote: »

All year round? In October when running 60-70 miles a week, running, swimming, cycling up to 8-12 times a week? Do you continue to do the same weights when starting 'speedwork' in spring or racing in the summer?

Thats where I'd see a problem with people saying you have to do weights even if you are an endurance athlete as its not that easy. Applying regular 'fitness' gym protocols to a totally different animal. Applying a relevant strength program taking into account what the athlete is doing in their fundamental training in the pool or road is very hard I'd imagine for an endurance athlete. Thats why I'm asking the question, has anyone ever actually done it as opposed to applying what they may do in the gym themselves.

You're right, I didn't mean to do a 5x5 3 day a week program all year round. You must have an "off period" of the year where you could ease back from swim/run/cycle.