Govt Report: Smarter Travel 2009

Bunnyhopper

"The Government has published a €4.5bn plan for sustainable transport to 2020 [...] A number of ambitious aims are outlined in the document including the target of having 150,000 people travel to work by bicycle."
http://www.rte.ie/news/2009/0205/transport.html

and

"Speaking today Minister Dempsey said; 'Travel trends in Ireland are unsustainable. We can’t keep pouring cars onto our streets. Cities are grinding to a halt with choking traffic congestion and that can’t continue. This action plan that I am publishing today shows a different way and sets out how to get there. This is not simply a series of transport initiatives. It represents a radical transformation in transport policy that puts people, rather than vehicles, first. It has the potential to fundamentally change how we all travel.'
[...]
"Actions aimed at ensuring that alternatives to the car are more widely available, mainly through a radically improved and more accessible public transport service and through investment in cycling and walking
[...]
"Future Government investment in public facilities to take account of the need to give priority to walking, cycling and public transport as primary means of access
[...]
"The delivery of a National Cycle Policy Framework"
http://transport.ie/pressRelease.aspx?Id=50

The report is available here (PDF from transport.ie - about 7MB).

Caroline_ie

Govt aims for 150,000 cycling commuters

... Is that good? I would hate to be stuck in cycling traffic ...

blorg

Caroline_ie wrote: »

... Is that good? I would hate to be stuck in cycling traffic ...

Key to this is riding on the road rather than cycle tracks

Bunnyhopper

Well, apparently, "Our universities and colleges will be bursting with bicycles", so cycle traffic jams might be a real problem.

Caroline_ie

... that's 'Wayne, Anto and the lads like you know' who are going to be happy :pac: growing business for them...

Chips Lovell

Meh. Just had a quick scan through it. Lots of vague stuff.

ROK ON

150k cycling to work. Christ, by the time this recession is over, that will be almost our entire workforce.
:rolleyes:

Bunnyhopper

el tonto wrote: »

Meh. Just had a quick scan through it. Lots of vague stuff.

Yeah, it's all very general and aspirational. Whether they'll have any money to do anything is another question.

Ghost Rider

This poster is interesting, but you have to be suspicious when you notice that the shot of the cars is tighter (i.e. the viewer appears to be physically closer to the subject) than the other shots. This has the effect of exaggerating the congestion caused by the cars.

I mean, nobody's actually saying cars use space efficiently, so why overstate it?

blorg wrote: »

Key to this is riding on the road rather than cycle tracks

Bunnyhopper

The Irish Times report has comments from Labour and Fine Gael that make similar points about lack of specifics etc.

DBCyc

Bunnyhopper wrote: »

Yeah, it's all very general and aspirational.

It is a higher level policy document only, so it cannot really get too specific. The purpose of the document is part of a reform of the planning process with policies to meeting sustainable transport objectives.

Local authorities will have to comply with it when assessing new developments, rezoning etc. Therefore it should reduce the amount of ill considered development which results in high car usage like the suburban sprawls west of the M50 in Dublin.

It is definitely a step forward as no such government objectives exist at the moment.

monument

Waiting for "The delivery of a National Cycle Policy Framework."

SectionF

Another exercise in spin: lots of cosy, aspirational sound bites with no commitment to funding, sadly typical of the Greens in government so far.

I'll believe it when I see it.

Euro_Kraut

Lads, this is a landmark day for cycling in Ireland. Never before has a Government committed itself to producing a Cycling Policy and make a specific goals of having 10% of all commuters travel by bike.

Yes its vauge and open to interpretation in points, but its a policy document not a piece of legislation. The big issue hear is that cycling is now seen as a transport issue and not an environmental issue. This is a whole Transport Plan for now until 2020 and cycling has been made a central plank.

More specific details will come in the National Cycling Policy - this is a good start imo. Also it great news that the opposition could only criticize the delivery of the policy and not the actual policy itself. FG didn't say that cycling was a waste of money or anything. They just moaned about it being not specific enough.

There is a consensus emerging in Irish politics around cycling. This is good news! I'm no fan of the Govts over many issues but am delighted to see this move.

Euro_Kraut

SectionF wrote: »

Another exercise in spin

Appropriate for a cycling policy

Capt'n Midnight

What have they actually done to encourage motorists to cycle ?
They have got rid of a lot of buses so a lot of people who can't afford cars will probably "choose" to cycle now.

more decent bike racks near CCTV cameras would be a good start IMHO

a clampdown on bike thieves would be another low cost way to encourage cycling

Had they got 150,000 people cycling earlier how much could they have saved on M50 and other road schemes ??

blorg

SectionF wrote: »

Another exercise in spin: lots of cosy, aspirational sound bites with no commitment to funding, sadly typical of the Greens in government so far.

I believe there was some crazy Green proposal about tying motor tax to emissions- wooly suggestion, will never be implemented Something about a "bike scheme" too...

Sean02

Aggree with Section F. A diversionary tactic like the Limerick hospital issue yesterday anything to take the heat away from the Public service pay cuts.

lafors

How far would you say its "feasible" for the average joe/mary to cycle to/from work everyday??

While I see the benefit of cycling, its completely useless to 90% of the people who live in e.g. Dublin's ever expanding commuter belt.
It would be useful for those inside the M50 ring imho, but outside it I feel the distance is too great to expect average joe to travel on a bike, thats my opinion on it.

For me personally, its not feasible to cycle to work. I live near the city but have to travel out to Kildare to work. There is no way for me to get to/from work without driving especially when on shift work. I think improving the public transport system is the way to go.

On another note, if this figure of 150,000 cycling to work ever happened, then companies would have to improve/get their changing room/showers etc.
Do you think it would be possible to get 15ok cycling on a terrible day like today.....the road are like sheets of ice....or when its lashing rain, windy as hell. I think you have to take into account factors like these. Not everyone is of a "cycling" mentality like most on this particluar forum.

btw I like cycling, just not as a way of commuting to work.

i57dwun4yb1pt8

bunch of over paid dumbass morons is all they are - the sooner they are history the better.

this is the worst sort of crap I have ever heard , and it will never happen .

Id like to see them make cycling safe in dublin - not a chance in hell unless they learn to police the damn roads properly first.

arseholes

i57dwun4yb1pt8

in any case - looks like he ripped it from here


http://www.dft.gov.uk/about/strategy/transportstrategy/pdfsustaintranssystem.pdf

blorg

lafors wrote: »

How far would you say its "feasible" for the average joe/mary to cycle to/from work everyday?? ... While I see the benefit of cycling, its completely useless to 90% of the people who live in e.g. Dublin's ever expanding commuter belt. ...

For me personally, its not feasible to cycle to work.

OK, so it's not feasible for you. However, 49% of Irish workers have a commute under 9km. I would consider this distance to be potentially cyclable for any non-disabled individual. That is a lot of potential cyclists. Not every policy initiative has to be all about you and promoting cycling is not exclusive to promoting public transport.

Lumen

blorg wrote: »

OK, so it's not feasible for you. However, 49% of Irish workers have a commute under 9km. I would consider this distance to be potentially cyclable for any non-disabled individual. That is a lot of potential cyclists. Not every policy initiative has to be all about you and promoting cycling is not exclusive to promoting public transport.

Additionally, most people are within cycling distance of a train station. With proper joined-up thinking, it's perfectly practical to combine the two.

lafors

blorg wrote: »

OK, so it's not feasible for you. However, 49% of Irish workers have a commute under 9km. I would consider this distance to be potentially cyclable for any non-disabled individual. That is a lot of potential cyclists. Not every policy initiative has to be all about you and promoting cycling is not exclusive to promoting public transport.

I didn't say it was about me, just gave my example at the end.
9km, can see that being possible alright, but 9km each way in the regular (even during the summer) crap Irish weather is a different kettle of fish.
Companies would have to improve their facilities, and most would only do that if there was some financial incentive for them.

Promoting cycling IS a good thing, I just can't see how they would expect to get 150k regularly cycling to work? PS if it works I'd be glad to eat my hat
Anyway the vagueness of that report says it all, about their intentions.

lafors

Lumen wrote: »

Additionally, most people are within cycling distance of a train station. With proper joined-up thinking, it's perfectly practical to combine the two.

I was actually going to say this, if I could bring my bike on the train I'd be cycling to work all the time. Unfortunately Drumcondra has no facilities for this and the commuter train doesn't take bikes.

ROK ON

lafors wrote: »

I didn't say it was about me, just gave my example at the end.
9km, can see that being possible alright, but 9km each way in the regular (even during the summer) crap Irish weather is a different kettle of fish.
Companies would have to improve their facilities, and most would only do that if there was some financial incentive for them.

Promoting cycling IS a good thing, I just can't see how they would expect to get 150k regularly cycling to work? PS if it works I'd be glad to eat my hat
Anyway the vagueness of that report says it all, about their intentions.

God help you if you think 9k each way is a long cycle. Think about it, an adult could way 9 k in an hour, maybe even less.
You could cycle it, (even accounting for city speeds and traffic lights in 20/25 mins.
This is the minimum amount of exercise an adult should be getting every day. (9km in a bus or car at rush hour can take 1hr to 1hr30mins.

My house is exactly 10km from where I work. I am 15st and overweight. Believe me it is not a problem to cycle that distance. I get to work in 20 mins give or take. This morning I used public transport due the ice - it took me 90mins.
Grant it, there are days where weather is too bad to cycle, however there are also days when travelling by car takes a lot longer than it should due to the weather.

Raam

If you are living around Dublin, which a lot of people do, it's worth pointing out that the weather is usually fine for cycling. We have fewer rainy days in Dublin than they do in London.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dublin#Climate

DirkVoodoo

Yeah I think for most people distance is not the problem. Aside from the fact that many people are quite happy to sit in their cars for hours on end and then give out about it to Joe Duffy, the main factors that would discourage me would be:

Lack of proper facilities at work - if i was working and there was no provision for showers or changing rooms, I would be a bit miffed. Swabbing your armpits everyday with babywipes is not an attractive solution.

Cycle lanes - ok, I'm not going to get started on these really. Basically they are so ridiculous that they make cycling more dangerous and less enjoyable. Yesterday, as I drove home (had to!) traffic was a mess. I saw bikes in the bus lane becuase the cycle lanes were unusable. Cars were also using it too before 7 because of the conditions. So couple this extra traffic with the regular buses and taxis and there should have been chaos, but there wasnt. There was no beeping at the cyclists or trying to run them off the road because people could see there was no alternative. Scrap the cycle lanes, or at least make them optional, and let cyclists on road bikes use the road.

ROK ON

DirkVoodoo wrote: »

Lack of proper facilities at work - if i was working and there was no provision for showers or changing rooms, I would be a bit miffed. Swabbing your armpits everyday with babywipes is not an attractive solution.

That is fair, however in my last job, there were 5 cyclists and this is exactly what we did everyday. The mens toilets in the morning were always crowed due to the cycling contingent changing out of cycling gear into suits.
It can be a deterrant, but hey, life aint perfect.
I would prefer to be in work in a set time (and smelly), than clean and stuck in traffic for hours on end.

blorg

lafors wrote: »

I didn't say it was about me, just gave my example at the end.

You threw out a "cycling is impossible for 90% of (a subset of commuters)"; I was pointing out that cycling is a feasible option for half of the workforce in this country yet many still insist on using a car for short journeys.

Weather like we are having at the moment is NOT common in this country. Dublin in particular actually has quite a dry climate and in any case the rare cases you might find yourself cycling in the rain (estimated at 4% of journeys for a typical year-round commuter) are not actually a disaster if you are prepared for it.

DirkVoodoo

Yeah I used to go to the toilets in college and get changed in and out of cycling gear. I know its doable and people do it, but it would be nice to see more effort on the part of employers to get people onto bikes.

Heck, even a port-a-shower kind of thing would help.

ROK ON

blorg wrote: »

Weather like we are having at the moment is NOT common in this country. Dublin in particular actually has quite a dry climate and in any case the rare cases you might find yourself cycling in the rain (estimated at 4% of journeys for a typical year-round commuter) are not actually a disaster if you are prepared for it.

How true. There are days where I have chosen to get the bus due to the rain. My walk to and from the bus stop plus the wait for the bus has often resulted in me arriving in work soaked to the skin. Even with a brolly, leather shoes are hopeless for keeping feet dry.

Usually when I cycle in the rain, a good rain cape/overshoes prevent a soaking.

I have to say, that rarely has rain been that bad, whereby you would be wet for an entire day.

ROK ON

DirkVoodoo wrote: »

Yeah I used to go to the toilets in college and get changed in and out of cycling gear. I know its doable and people do it, but it would be nice to see more effort on the part of employers to get people onto bikes.

Heck, even a port-a-shower kind of thing would help.

We are changing in that regard. Most new buildings that I have seen (particulalry in the IFSC) all have shower facilities.
We (Ireland) also have a very large stock of new commerical buildings versus old buildings, so the provision of shower facilities has surely increased in workplaces over the past number of years.

Almost every college/university has a gym/swimming pool. Folks needing to commute to college should have no problem showering there surely?

Jack Bauer999

blorg wrote: »

You threw out a "cycling is impossible for 90% of (a subset of commuters)"; I was pointing out that cycling is a feasible option for half of the workforce in this country yet many still insist on using a car for short journeys.

Weather like we are having at the moment is NOT common in this country. Dublin in particular actually has quite a dry climate and in any case the rare cases you might find yourself cycling in the rain (estimated at 4% of journeys for a typical year-round commuter) are not actually a disaster if you are prepared for it.

considering the average number of wet days (days with more than 1mm of rain) ranges from about 150 days a year along the east and south-east coasts, to about 225 days a year in parts of the west how do you work out your 4%?

DirkVoodoo

Experience plays a part too. I think a lot of new cycle commuters get caught out by the rain and then think to themselves "feck this!"

A bit of preparation and knowing what to wear go a long way.

It's definitely worth taking the time to pack some emergency clothes, socks, towel, etc. in work and wearing a good pair of waterproofs over your trousers (if you don't decide to go the lycra route) is very helpful.

Having some cycling specific shoes is also useful, wearing your wingtips on the bike, in the rain, is not a good idea.

Raam

Jack Bauer999 wrote: »

considering the average number of wet days (days with more than 1mm of rain) ranges from about 150 days a year along the east and south-east coasts, to about 225 days a year in parts of the west how do you work out your 4%?

PDF alert
http://home.connect.ie/dcc/docs/DublinCity/Weather.pdf

Section 4

Rainfall of 0.5mm per hour would typically be viewed as drizzle/very light rain. Using
this low rainfall threshold (i.e. cumulative rainfall of 0.2mm on the 22 minute journey)
the cyclist would have got wet on only 5% of trips in the morning and on 4% of trips in
the evening. When higher rainfall thresholds are applied the proportion of trips where
the cyclist gets wet declines very dramatically. With a threshold of 1mm over the 22
minute journey, which would be classified as moderate rainfall, the cyclist gets wet on
average on only 0.6% of trips in the morning and on 0.4% in the evening.

DirkVoodoo

ROK ON wrote: »

Almost every college/university has a gym/swimming pool. Folks needing to commute to college should have no problem showering there surely?

Yeah there is the gym, I would generally use the chemical spill showers in the eng block because the gym is the other end of campus. I was referring more to a quick change in and out of clothes. I now do that in my office

But you are right, commuting to college there are not many excuses. Lots of parking, no need to worry about creasing your suit, more than likely you will be smelling of beer later on and you save petrol money for more beer.

Lumen

ROK ON wrote: »

Folks needing to commute to college should have no problem showering there surely?

Students wash? Another stereotype busted.

Hungrycol

ROK ON wrote: »

I would prefer to be in work in a set time (and smelly)

Your colleagues might not appreciate it though. Although you can get fired for tardiness but not smellyness AFAIK!!

In the last 12 months I think I got rained on maybe 5 times on the bike. As horrible as the weather in Ireland can be I'm always surprised at how rarely it rains while I'm on the bike (I leave at the same time each day to and from work).

The 150k is wishful thinking and by 2020 is too large a timescale. I like the "bike have right of way" kind of thinking though . It's a step (or pedal) in the right direction. Perhaps these things would be better received when cycling is not near impossible on the roads at the moment. No VAT on bikes and a campaign of cyclist respect from other road users might be nice too.

lafors

ROK ON wrote: »

God help you if you think 9k each way is a long cycle. Think about it, an adult could way 9 k in an hour, maybe even less.
You could cycle it, (even accounting for city speeds and traffic lights in 20/25 mins.
This is the minimum amount of exercise an adult should be getting every day. (9km in a bus or car at rush hour can take 1hr to 1hr30mins.

Don't think you read my post right?
I never said 9km is a long cycle?

lafors

blorg wrote: »

You threw out a "cycling is impossible for 90% of (a subset of commuters)"; I was pointing out that cycling is a feasible option for half of the workforce in this country yet many still insist on using a car for short journeys.

Weather like we are having at the moment is NOT common in this country. Dublin in particular actually has quite a dry climate and in any case the rare cases you might find yourself cycling in the rain (estimated at 4% of journeys for a typical year-round commuter) are not actually a disaster if you are prepared for it.

I never said impossible, nothing is impossible (don't list things that are impossible ) what I did say was feasible, big difference.
You're right about the current weather though, it can't be considered regular Irish weather.

blorg

Jack Bauer999 wrote: »

considering the average number of wet days (days with more than 1mm of rain) ranges from about 150 days a year along the east and south-east coasts, to about 225 days a year in parts of the west how do you work out your 4%?

As Raam says, because your commute only takes up a small portion of a "wet day" - if I commute in the morning and the evening and it rains at lunchtime it is a wet day but I don't get rained on during my commute.

flickerx

Bunnyhopper wrote: »

The Irish Times report has comments from Labour and Fine Gael that make similar points about lack of specifics etc.

Fine Gael are a pseudo opposition whose right wing policies are identical to Fianna Fail. The fact that they even exist is a sign of the immense political stupidity and immaturity of the Irish populace to understand that the civil war ended nearly 90 years ago. If in Government they'd probably enact worse anti-environmental policies. Only today one of their councillors was giving out about Dublin City Council's plan to ban cars from an extremely small part of the city centre while the Metro is being constructed, to ease congestion.

As regards this latest document, and current government policy, it is good to see things like vehicles being taxed on carbon emissions (they should be doubled, tripled, quadrupled IMHO if you want to get people out of their cars and onto bikes) and the bike to work scheme, but other things have been promised before and never materialised, such as McDowell's specialist anti bike theft unit. I'll wait to judge.

As someone else mentioned, Dempsey is hardly making sense when buses are being taken off the streets to save money. Why not leave the buses where they are, and stop building roads which are primarily going to be used by cars? That'll save a fortune, and also push towards the aims of reducing car traffic.

I saw Ken Livingstone speak recently at a talk about progressive cities. He was great to listen to, his concern for the environment and making urban habitats livable through immediate and sometimes unpopular/unpopulist measures (but essential in the long run) was admirable and politicians here could take a leaf from his book. I still cant believe Boris Johnson did away with the congestion charge.

Ryaner

flickerx wrote: »

As regards this latest document, and current government policy, it is good to see things like vehicles being taxed on carbon emissions (they should be doubled, tripled, quadrupled IMHO if you want to get people out of their cars and onto bikes) and the bike to work scheme, but other things have been promised before and never materialised, such as McDowell's specialist anti bike theft unit. I'll wait to judge.

Increasing motor tax is stupid. Put the tax on petrol and then do away with motor tax. It'll then have a much bigger affect on things.

monument

I cycle about 6.5km up hill everyday to DCU. It takes under 30mins, but from where I live (Parkgate Street) it's normally the quickest way to get there, bar on a motorbike. The 6.5km getting back home can be done a lot quicker, with traffic lights and the odd car the only things slowing me down.

lafors wrote: »

How far would you say its "feasible" for the average joe/mary to cycle to/from work everyday??

People within 8km round trip (which is under 5miles) would be a reasonable target to have starting off.

As the report says:

In 2006, around 45,000 people drove less than 2km to work, with a further 160,000 people driving 2-4km to work. These people could potentially switch to walking or cycling. For various reasons not all will. Nevertheless, it should be possible to encourage a significant number to make the change.

And:

In 2006 around 55,000 students were driven or drove less than 2km to their place of education. A further 150,000 were driven or drove 2-4 km to their place of education. The Government has already committed to a Green Schools Travel Programme, which will reach over 1,000 schools and 265,000 pupils by 2012. Based on pilot studies, it could result in a 16% decrease in car use for school use.

Húrin

Deeds not words, please Fianna Fail. I find it difficult to imagine that FF can be relied upon to pursue what is really necessary - the replacement of car lanes with bus and cycle lanes.

petethedrummer

I think people(me included) should be made to write an email/letter of complaint to the government/council before moaning about cycling facilities in Ireland. And only once you've posted said letter/email on here are you allowed complain about things.

It would would be time better spent. Lobbying thread anyone???

Caroline_ie

Has anyone seen that series of Documentaties on Channel 4 showed a couple of year s ago (?) called 'The Woman who Stops Traffic' in the UK, encouraging people within a town to ditch their car for 1 day ...?
Well it was very hard to get people to walk/cycle anywhere especially is the most working areas, where people would say 'I pay for my car I will use it as much as I can'...

petethedrummer

Húrin wrote: »

Deeds not words, please Fianna Fail. I find it difficult to imagine that FF can be relied upon to pursue what is really necessary - the replacement of car lanes with bus and cycle lanes.

Of course it will be a short-sighted, 'sure that'll do', patchwork-quilt effort. When has an infrastructural project EVER been any different in this country?

The politicians in general here don't have a grand vision for anything, its just a series of firefighting, tidying up and sorting out of individual problems. Which is the type of politician most of the populace seem to want.

So whats the solution for improved cycling facilities?? I dunno, just keep shouting until somebody listens?

Sean02

Anyone see the six one news following the Dempsey/Ryan bulls...t. .
The clip also highlighted at least six previous transport strategies and reports costing millions. The country is in a state of chassis. The increase in number cycling which will inevitably take place won't happen because of any government transport initiative but due to the fact that we will have no work to cycle to!!

mmclo

flickerx wrote: »

I still cant believe Boris Johnson did away with the congestion charge.

Not the charge just the extension of it