Are we too generous to old people?

GeeNorm

There's much rhethoric in the country about everyone needing to pull together and yet Cowen specifically leaves old people out of any cut in their pension...

"The Taoiseach said the alternative to a pension levy was a pay cut, which would have affected the pensions of retired public sector workers."

I understand that they tend to vote and so get looked after better but I would dearly love a national debate on their requirement for medical cards, health insurance subsidised by younger subscribers, free travel, cheap electricity/gas and telephone allowance.

Yes, poorer old people need these benefits but I personally know hundreds (socially and through work as their accountant) that should not only have their benfits cut but should also have taxes designed to specifically target them.

Old person = over 66 for this discussion.

woodseb

let's face it the current government are highly unlikely to get re-elected so they should make cuts without fear of 'losing votes' - starting with the OAPs and their 'me, me, me' attitude

nobody should be immune from taking some of the hardship

Mingey

The older people in this country are the ones who have worked the hardest in the last few decades. It is only fair that they should be looked after.

woodseb

Mingey wrote: »

The older people in this country are the ones who have worked the hardest in the last few decades. It is only fair that they should be looked after.

really? it must have been really difficult for them with their low mortgages, high income and rising house prices

not saying they shouldn't be looked after, but means testing at the miminum is fair in this environment

GeeNorm

woodseb wrote: »

not saying they shouldn't be looked after, but means testing at the miminum is fair in this environment

I'm thinking the same more and more. People keep calling on the government to tax the wealthy (as opposed to lower/middle income workers) and then reject any taxing (or even reducing of benefits!) to old people who are the main store of wealth in the country.

Separate poorer old people through means testing and you'd be left with a nice plump sector well able to shoulder some of the national burden.

Soldie

Mingey wrote: »

The older people in this country are the ones who have worked the hardest in the last few decades. It is only fair that they should be looked after.

What is this based on?

ejmaztec

A lot of retired ex-pats would think twice about bringing their wedges back to Ireland were they to be screwed on arrival for things that might cost them nothing in the country where they made their pile.

turgon

No, and wouldnt think so in 50 years yourself.

Mingey

Soldie wrote: »

What is this based on?

Opinion.

I have seen the state and the cost of Nursing homes in this country. Thats all that they have to look forward to.

marcsignal

No, I'd rather see CAB going after Sean Fitzpatrick from Anglo Irish Bank and taking everything down to the shirt off his back, before I'd take anything from your 'average' pensioner. After all, the wreckless practices of Fitzpatrick, and his ilk are partly to blame for the situation we're in, aside from the world scenario.

Although I'd be open to looking into getting very wealthy pensioners to contribute something.

GeeNorm

Mingey wrote: »

Opinion.

I have seen the state and the cost of Nursing homes in this country. Thats all that they have to look forward to.

Clearly people equate old with poor, which needs to stop. If we stopped handing out benefits to the older people who have no need for them, we could provide (with ease) for the older people that do (as above).

The likes of Fitzpatrick etc will soon be getting subsidised electricity and phone line.

Irlbo

Too many old people with a chip on their shoulder purely on the basis they are old,being old doesnt entitle you to an easier existence,fair enouh there are old peole out there on very low incomes and vunrable,they should be accomadated,but there are many out there,living in large 5 bedroom houses,driving brand new cars,and getting free medical treatment up to recently with thier medical cards,who are still drawing a state pension but sitting on a hefty retirement,these old codgers dont deserve a bean

P. Breathnach

If we are to discuss such questions reasonably, then we need to avoid simplistic generalisations such as "The older people in this country are the ones who have worked the hardest in the last few decades" and intemperate language such as "old codgers", and we should not be deflected from the issue by discussing people like Sean FitzPatrick.

I am retired, but not yet 66. At this point, and as far as I can foresee, I have no great financial difficulties (Public Service pension -- but let's not get deflected by that issue either). I don't need a packet of benefits simply on the basis of my age, and I don't want it. If the people of Ireland decide not to give me those benefits, that's okay with me. What I do ask is that if my circumstances change significantly for the worse, the people of Ireland then try to help me. Does that seem fair?

Irlbo

P. Breathnach wrote: »

If we are to discuss such questions reasonably, then we need to avoid simplistic generalisations such as "The older people in this country are the ones who have worked the hardest in the last few decades" and intemperate language such as "old codgers", and we should not be deflected from the issue by discussing people like Sean FitzPatrick.

I am retired, but not yet 66. At this point, and as far as I can foresee, I have no great financial difficulties (Public Service pension -- but let's not get deflected by that issue either). I don't need a packet of benefits simply on the basis of my age, and I don't want it. If the people of Ireland decide not to give me those benefits, that's okay with me. What I do ask is that if my circumstances change significantly for the worse, the people of Ireland then try to help me. Does that seem fair?

Do you own your own house?,so you have a fund to fall back on?are you disabled?,if you dont mind me asking

happyoutscan

woodseb wrote: »

let's face it the current government are highly unlikely to get re-elected so they should make cuts without fear of 'losing votes' - starting with the OAPs and their 'me, me, me' attitude

nobody should be immune from taking some of the hardship

I feel sorry for your parents.

woodseb

happyoutscan wrote: »

I feel sorry for your parents.

really, i don't, they have provided well for themselves and worked hard so they shouldn't need to rely on govt handouts

what part of financially capable old persons paying their way don't you agree with?

P. Breathnach

Irlbo wrote: »

Do you own your own house?,so you have a fund to fall back on?are you disabled?,if you dont mind me asking

I don't mind your asking, so long as you don't mind my not answering.

None of those matters should affect my core message: don't feel obliged to offer me help when I don't need it; please help me if I do come to need it.

On the general implications of owning a house: I think that should be regarded as part of a person's security for decrepitude, and its value should be available to pay for medical or nursing home care if necessary. I mean all its value, not the paltry 15% provided for by last year's big plan. Why should 85% of the value pass to heirs while the state picks up a big tab? If children want to inherit, let them qualify for it by providing care.

happyoutscan

woodseb wrote: »

really, i don't, they have provided well for themselves and worked hard so they shouldn't need to rely on govt handouts

what part of financially capable old persons paying their way don't you agree with?

I get the feeling your bitterness towards old people is more universal than just against those who are financially capable.

woodseb

happyoutscan wrote: »

I get the feeling your bitterness towards old people is more universal than just against those who are financially capable.

maybe you can take your amatuer pyschology somewhere else if the discussion here isn't to your liking, i think i've explained my point well enough, it's not bitterness

happyoutscan

woodseb wrote: »

maybe you can take your amatuer pyschology somewhere else if the discussion here isn't to your liking, i think i've explained my point well enough, it's not bitterness

In absolutely no way have you explained your point except for a silly remark portraying ALL pensioners with a 'me me me' attitude.Maybe if you were able to do better than this I would not feel the need to simplify my replies so you could understand.

How many older people do you know? Do you work with them? Have you visited a random older person lately? No, I didn't think so.

For those who are well off fair enough, but don't for a minute think you can put the majority of pensioners in this country in that bracket.

If you are going to accuse me of using 'amatuer psychology' at least spell it correctly.

Mr.Micro

For those who are well off fair enough, but don't for a minute think you can put the majority of pensioners in this country in that bracket.

I agree, walk around any town or city in Ireland and one will see plenty of old people who struggle to make ends meet. The so called Celtic Tiger did not kiss everybody, if anything if left many old people worse off with increased prices and costs.

Permabear

This post has been deleted.

woodseb

happyoutscan wrote: »

In absolutely no way have you explained your point except for a silly remark portraying ALL pensioners with a 'me me me' attitude.Maybe if you were able to do better than this I would not feel the need to simplify my replies so you could understand.

How many older people do you know? Do you work with them? Have you visited a random older person lately? No, I didn't think so.

For those who are well off fair enough, but don't for a minute think you can put the majority of pensioners in this country in that bracket.

for someone so offended at me making generalisations, you don't half like making them yourself, i am in favour of means testing and if you read my posts correctly rather than jumping to conclusions and correcting spelling mistakes you might realise that

what part of financially capable old persons paying their way don't you agree with?
not saying they shouldn't be looked after, but means testing at the miminum is fair in this environment

that is the crux of my point, and from reading this thread lots of other people agree with me...i'll happily debate it with you as long you don't resort to childish barbs about my parents and grammar lessons

the quote about 'me, me, me' was my opinion of the protests after the budget - it wasn't a generalisation it was my opinion of the actions of the groups protesting that they shouldn't have to take some of the hardship in the coming years regardless of financial status

old boy

reform is required from the top down, there is more fat to be trimmed at the top, the dail and seanad, trim them down, pay them the going rate for a small country, i read lately that the chairman of my local co. council will pocket 75 grand this year, the public service has to be seen to be cost effictive, again start at the top, monolopys are unproductive, create compition to dublin bus etc, send managers in the service industary to the u.s. to see how things are done, the social welfare system needs to be overhauled, every payment to be means tested, payments in some levels only at the discression of a garda supertendant the judicial systm is a laughing stock, free legal aid should again be only at the discression of a garda supertendant,

mountainyman

Mingey wrote: »

The older people in this country are the ones who have worked the hardest in the last few decades. It is only fair that they should be looked after.

They got us into this mess.

irish_bob

mountainyman wrote: »

They got us into this mess.

no , the only criteria tham counts when determining who caused the mess is whether you work in the private sector ,so only the old who work in the private sector caused the mess , i know this because i sneaked into a public sector union meeting in the past few weeks , this was the brief on what to say when challenged about pay cuts

irish_bob

mountainyman wrote: »

They got us into this mess.

no , the only criteria that counts when determining who caused the mess is whether you work in the private sector or not ,so only the old who work in the private sector caused the mess , i know this because i sneaked into a public sector union meeting in the past few weeks , this was the brief on what to say when challenged about pay cuts

Victor

Some schemes provided by the state, at least in their original set-up cost little, but provided a greater benefit to the customer. For example, allowing social welfare bus pass holders to use buses off-peak costs the bus operators little (the buses would run anyway with empty seats), while it provided mobility that wasn't otherwise available to older people. As a result, the state paid the transport companies a reduced fare. Win-win-win. The scheme was extended to peak hours. The government should be paying a premium for this peak service, but aren't.

Other schemes like free phone rental and fuel allowances are there to encourage people to stay in contact and to keep warm. Some older people would try to do without. As such, providing a service instead of cash is better.

That many of these schemes were tied to state companies blurs things (transport, phones and energy are now open to all suitable suppliers).

Quartet

old boy wrote: »

send managers in the service industary to the u.s. to see how things are done, the social welfare system needs to be overhauled, every payment to be means tested, payments in some levels only at the discression of a garda supertendant the judicial systm is a laughing stock, free legal aid should again be only at the discression of a garda supertendant,

Well I guess you would be s****** then Ok so adopt the US system and no more welfare for those claiming they cant work etc. No Health care at all.

You would have to join the lines of some charity clinic . I guarantee a local garda Superintendant would take a look at many non genuine serial welfare claimers and tell them to take a hike.

As for free legal aid i agree with you there - too many people abuse the legal system and tie it up with vexatious and blatently false legal suits

So ya lets reform the Welfare system - the people who pay for it (ie the Taxpayer) will be delighted Im sure.