Hyprocritical Sacraments

Splendour

Hi all,

just had a discussion on the phone with my mother around confirmation/marriage/christianings etc in the Catholic church and curious if other Catholics have the same beliefs as she does.Or even better still, does anyone know if there are certain Catholic 'rules' when receiving sacraments?


My daughter is a non believer and is getting married next year-and wants to have the ceremony in a Catholic church. I think this is hypocritical and said so to my mother-she agreed with this.I then stated how I admired the church I attend as they will not perform a wedding ceremony for those who are not Christian. She then said that as my daughter was christened she is therefore a Christian and entitled to get married in a church.
On one hand she's saying it's hypocritical and on the other she thinks it's ok. Do most Catholics think this way?

We then touched on confirmations.My son is making his confirmation this year as he attends a Catholic school (I was a practicing Catholic when he started there). I have told the priest I'm not a practicing Catholic anymore and my child doesn't attend mass but apparantly this doesn't matter.The priest basically laughed it off with a "ah sure why did you leave us anyway.."-and that was it! Also my son asked his Dad (my ex.) to be his sponsor and a form was duely signed and sent back to the school. This form stated that the sponsor should be a regular mass goer which my ex isn't. Had my son asked me to be his sponsor, I would obviously had to refuse.I will naturally attend the confirmation but I know it will mean nothing to me or him or in fact 90% of the people in the church that day. As far as the kids are concerned, it's all about the money...

We also touched on Christenings which really make my blood boil, as I think I've only once gone to a Christening where the parents really took the promises of bringing the child up Catholic on board.

I suppose after my little rant, my question is this: why does the Catholic church allow such hypocrisy to go on? Is this political correctness gone mad?!!

Soul Winner

Splendour wrote: »

Hi all,

just had a discussion on the phone with my mother around confirmation/marriage/christianings etc in the Catholic church and curious if other Catholics have the same beliefs as she does.Or even better still, does anyone know if there are certain Catholic 'rules' when receiving sacraments?


My daughter is a non believer and is getting married next year-and wants to have the ceremony in a Catholic church. I think this is hypocritical and said so to my mother-she agreed with this.I then stated how I admired the church I attend as they will not perform a wedding ceremony for those who are not Christian. She then said that as my daughter was christened she is therefore a Christian and entitled to get married in a church.
On one hand she's saying it's hypocritical and on the other she thinks it's ok. Do most Catholics think this way?

We then touched on confirmations.My son is making his confirmation this year as he attends a Catholic school (I was a practicing Catholic when he started there). I have told the priest I'm not a practicing Catholic anymore and my child doesn't attend mass but apparantly this doesn't matter.The priest basically laughed it off with a "ah sure why did you leave us anyway.."-and that was it! Also my son asked his Dad (my ex.) to be his sponsor and a form was duely signed and sent back to the school. This form stated that the sponsor should be a regular mass goer which my ex isn't. Had my son asked me to be his sponsor, I would obviously had to refuse.I will naturally attend the confirmation but I know it will mean nothing to me or him or in fact 90% of the people in the church that day. As far as the kids are concerned, it's all about the money...

We also touched on Christenings which really make my blood boil, as I think I've only once gone to a Christening where the parents really took the promises of bringing the child up Catholic on board.

I suppose after my little rant, my question is this: why does the Catholic church allow such hypocrisy to go on? Is this political correctness gone mad?!!

Not political correctness gone mad at all more like the traditions of men which Jesus Himself said - make void the Word of God - gone mad. Being a Christian is not restricted to being a Roman Catholic despite what 'some' of them might tell you. The stance in the RCC now seems to be one of 'just be happy with whoever decides to come in' rather than condemn those who don't, like it was years ago when you didn't go to Mass, Confession and so on. These are just traditions of men added onto Church activity which have made void the effect that reading God's Word directly has on an individual life. Jesus came to set people free not so that He could enslave them again to a yoke of bondage. All you need is God's Word rightly divided and to act on it, and where tradition comes into conflict with that then get rid of the tradition. Simple.

Splendour

Soul Winner wrote: »

The stance in the RCC now seems to be one of 'just be happy with whoever decides to come in' rather than condemn those who don't, like it was years ago when you didn't go to Mass, Confession and so on.

This is the point I was trying to get across to my mother; the goalposts seems to change to suit everyone. It's like once they have 'bums on seats' that's all that matters and if it takes a communion or a confirmation to do that, well so be it.
Even at funerals the priest ALWAYS says something along the lines of 'we can be grateful that so and so is gone to be with God'. How does the priest know that-especially when most of the time he may never have even met the deceased!

I dunno, seems all wrong to me...

Húrin

I think that there's no need to "condemn" those who demonstrate hypocrisy like this. A few sermons on how Jesus accepts no half-Christians (either you're a committed follower or you're not) should do the job.

Splendour

Húrin wrote: »

I think that there's no need to "condemn" those who demonstrate hypocrisy like this. A few sermons on how Jesus accepts no half-Christians (either you're a committed follower or you're not) should do the job.

I certainly wouldn't condemn individuals. It's the RCC I get annoyed with for bending their own rules,or maybe they're not bending them and this is what I'd like to establish.
It seems to me the only thing you have to do to be accepted into the RCC is to be baptised as a baby and after that nothing else you do or don't do matters...

postcynical

Splendour wrote: »

[..]
does anyone know if there are certain Catholic 'rules' when receiving sacraments?

Hi Splendour,

I've been reading up on some of these and of course there are rules! Have we the time to understand them all or not is the issue... As far as I read it, the big rule is not to take the Eucharist in a state of mortal sin (sacrilege) or to make a bad confession (sacrilege). However, I personally found my journey back to faith to be greatly aided by the sacraments. I often took communion while in a state of sin (I wasn't aware of this rule). I also made genuine confessions but held back on things which I felt weren't sinful. I'm more mature now in faith and realise the error of this but at the time these sacraments were helpful to me, despite the sacrilege.

As for the others (baptism, marriage, confirmation), it does not matter if the recipient is in a state of sin as the sacrament is given. However the full graces of the sacrament will become apparant when the recipient returns to a state of grace. Don't fully understand all that but I made my baptism and confirmation when I was a child. I'm hoping I'll make up for them with my marriage (you can only receive each of them once). All these other sacraments are pointing towards the Eucharist which is the important one.

My daughter is a non believer and is getting married next year-and wants to have the ceremony in a Catholic church.
[..]
She then said that as my daughter was christened she is therefore a Christian and entitled to get married in a church.
On one hand she's saying it's hypocritical and on the other she thinks it's ok. Do most Catholics think this way?

I'd say it's fine. This is either the payoff for having an unwanted religion hoisted upon her (cynical view) or another opportunity for her to see God's action in her life.

I will naturally attend the confirmation but I know it will mean nothing to me or him or in fact 90% of the people in the church that day. As far as the kids are concerned, it's all about the money...

You really can't know that. There's a lot of spirituality under the surface. The money part is a bit vulgar but it's nice to mark these stages in life. Personally I'd prefer to see confirmation at 16 years old (although I probably wouldn't have been confirmed in that case). It made sense back in the day when people left school after primary school that they'd cap their education but there are very few if any children now who don't go to secondary school.

We also touched on Christenings which really make my blood boil, as I think I've only once gone to a Christening where the parents really took the promises of bringing the child up Catholic on board.

The hypocricy is with the parents in that case. I would not publicly or privately or especially before God make an insincere promise. But who knows what's in the parents' hearts when they make these promises, maybe they would like to give their children a Christian upbringing. Also it can't do the child any harm (and might give them the opportunity of having a wedding in a church in later life)

I suppose after my little rant, my question is this: why does the Catholic church allow such hypocrisy to go on? Is this political correctness gone mad?!!

The Church (broadest possible sense, including RCC) should show the mercy and forgiveness which God shows. People are free to be hypocrites but they will have to live with themselves first of all and then answer for it eventually.

Húrin

postcynical wrote: »

The Church (broadest possible sense, including RCC) should show the mercy and forgiveness which God shows. People are free to be hypocrites but they will have to live with themselves first of all and then answer for it eventually.

I agree with this. I think that it is their choice to do this, but that they deserve to know what Jesus said about this kind of pretend-belief.

sorella

The judgmentalism in the title takes the breath away. And here also.

Húrin wrote: »

I agree with this. I think that it is their choice to do this, but that they deserve to know what Jesus said about this kind of pretend-belief.

Splendour

sorella wrote: »

The judgmentalism in the title takes the breath away. And here also.

Sorella, I am not being hypocritical of the sacraments per se at all. I don't agree with sacraments but neither do I have a problem with people who receive them. It's the people who go through the sacraments without any belief at all that the thoughts in my post is aimed at-hence the title.
I just don't understand why people bother or why the church allows unbelievers to receive sacraments-like what's the point?

I was once a practicing Catholic and believed in most of what the RC taught, but when I realised I could not agree with the 'rules', I left. If I hadn't left, I too would be hypocritical.

sorella

Splendour; I do understand where you are at. We all see these things and wonder. And wish it were else.

But we are not God, simply.

So we can only 'judge" our own actions.

And thus the Church; how can they refuse? if it is RC, they do insist on a marriage preparation course. So they do the best they can there. Not sure how long this has been so? But it is pretty thorough.

And re baptism; that is for the baby,simply.

Do you see what I am getting at here? there is no black and white, and often the heart is hidden.

Maybe we hear the things others do not also

Blessings. and respect always for your integrity.

Splendour wrote: »

Sorella, I am not being hypocritical of the sacraments per se at all. I don't agree with sacraments but neither do I have a problem with people who receive them. It's the people who go through the sacraments without any belief at all that the thoughts in my post is aimed at-hence the title.
I just don't understand why people bother or why the church allows unbelievers to receive sacraments-like what's the point?

I was once a practicing Catholic and believed in most of what the RC taught, but when I realised I could not agree with the 'rules', I left. If I hadn't left, I too would be hypocritical.

Splendour

sorella wrote: »

Splendour; I do understand where you are at. We all see these things and wonder. And wish it were else.

But we are not God, simply.

So we can only 'judge" our own actions.

And thus the Church; how can they refuse? if it is RC, they do insist on a marriage preparation course. So they do the best they can there. Not sure how long this has been so? But it is pretty thorough.

And re baptism; that is for the baby,simply.

Do you see what I am getting at here? there is no black and white, and often the heart is hidden.

Maybe we hear the things others do not also

Blessings. and respect always for your integrity.

So are you saying the only prerequisite one needs to receive any other sacrament is to have been baptised into the RC, regardless of present beliefs or practices?

Splendour

postcynical wrote: »

I'd say it's fine. This is either the payoff for having an unwanted religion hoisted upon her (cynical view) or another opportunity for her to see God's action in her life.

What if a Muslim or Jew asked to get married in the RC. Would you have the same view? My daughter was brought up in The RC till she was about 16, but it was never pushed on her.

Splendour

postcynical wrote: »

You really can't know that. There's a lot of spirituality under the surface. The money part is a bit vulgar but it's nice to mark these stages in life. Personally I'd prefer to see confirmation at 16 years old (although I probably wouldn't have been confirmed in that case). It made sense back in the day when people left school after primary school that they'd cap their education but there are very few if any children now who don't go to secondary school.

I can and I do know this! Maybe you don't have friends of communion/confirmation age but the parents I know have absolutely NO interest in the 'religious' end of it. One parent I spoke with said that 'obviously' the confirmation means nothing but he looks on it as a rite of passage for the children. And not sound smart or anything but spirituality does not necessarily mean Christianity...

sorella

No; where in my post did you get that idea, please?

You or I cannot know what is in another's heart.

Splendour wrote: »

So are you saying the only prerequisite one needs to receive any other sacrament is to have been baptised into the RC, regardless of present beliefs or practices?

sorella

Orthodoxy gives babies their first communion at baptism.

Because a parent says that, does not mean the child thinks that - who has been well and carefully prepared for this.

And God is not involved? In any of this?

Splendour wrote: »

I can and I do know this! Maybe you don't have friends of communion/confirmation age but the parents I know have absolutely NO interest in the 'religious' end of it. One parent I spoke with said that 'obviously' the confirmation means nothing but he looks on it as a rite of passage for the children. And not sound smart or anything but spirituality does not necessarily mean Christianity...

Splendour

sorella wrote: »

No; where in my post did you get that idea, please?

Well you asked in one post 'how could the RC refuse' to give sacraments hence suggesting that if they refuse to give them to people not baptised within the Catholic church then a baptisimal certificate is all that is needed to receive them.

I'm not trying to have a go at you sorella,just trying to get my head around what is and isn't acceptable within the R.C.

postcynical

Splendour wrote: »

What if a Muslim or Jew asked to get married in the RC. Would you have the same view? My daughter was brought up in The RC till she was about 16, but it was never pushed on her.

No. But she's a baptised Christian. Why would a Muslim or a Jew marry in a Catholic church?

sorella

Sorry; you have lost me there?

Oh I see; no that is not what I meant at all, at all. I mean; knowing the spiritual power of the sacraments, how could the Church refuse them:)

Many priests are as concerned as you are; and they thus insist on thorough preparation. ie marriage courses , confirmation classes etc etc etc. We do try.

And it makes a difference. I once helped here arrange a secret wedding; the young woman was living with the father of their small child, because they could not afford the huge wedding their families would expect.

She knew it was not right.

and she hated also the way many would attend weddings just for the party.

So we had a small secret wedding:)
Seven of us including the wee girl.

We cannot lump everyone together; they come in pairs or ones.:)

And many are open to help if offered in the right way

Baptism is though a sign of full membership of the Church.

Splendour wrote: »

Well you asked in one post 'how could the RC refuse' to give sacraments hence suggesting that if they refuse to give them to people not baptised within the Catholic church then a baptisimal certificate is all that is needed to receive them.

I'm not trying to have a go at you sorella,just trying to get my head around what is and isn't acceptable within the R.C.

Puck

I bought my nephew a Bible for his Confirmation in the Catholic church. I was given a lot of hassle for that from my mother. I was told he'd have no interest in it and I should just give him money. I was called a hypocrite for saying that if a young man stands up in the church and makes a statement of belief then he should actually believe the things he is saying. I don't see how that makes me a hypocrite, I eventually had to explain what the word hypocrite meant. The whole thing was about him just doing what is the social norm and me playing my part in that (i.e. giving him money). Everybody just going through the motions, it sickens me to see any church being used for that.

I eventually gave him the Bible with a €20 stuck inside as a bookmark and the reference Matthew 6:19-20 written on it.

sorella

Puck; you have great style. And great faith. Blessings this day

Puck wrote: »

I bought my nephew a Bible for his Confirmation in the Catholic church. I was given a lot of hassle for that from my mother. I was told he'd have no interest in it and I should just give him money. I was called a hypocrite for saying that if a young man stands up in the church and makes a statement of belief then he should actually believe the things he is saying. I don't see how that makes me a hypocrite, I eventually had to explain what the word hypocrite meant. The whole thing was about him just doing what is the social norm and me playing my part in that (i.e. giving him money). Everybody just going through the motions, it sickens me to see any church being used for that.

I eventually gave him the Bible with a €20 stuck inside as a bookmark and the reference Matthew 6:19-20 written on it.

Splendour

Puck wrote: »

I bought my nephew a Bible for his Confirmation in the Catholic church. I was given a lot of hassle for that from my mother. I was told he'd have no interest in it and I should just give him money. I was called a hypocrite for saying that if a young man stands up in the church and makes a statement of belief then he should actually believe the things he is saying. I don't see how that makes me a hypocrite, I eventually had to explain what the word hypocrite meant. The whole thing was about him just doing what is the social norm and me playing my part in that (i.e. giving him money). Everybody just going through the motions, it sickens me to see any church being used for that.

I eventually gave him the Bible with a €20 stuck inside as a bookmark and the reference Matthew 6:19-20 written on it.

Hi Puck, am glad to see someone else who sees the hypocrisy in this...

I gave my older son a bible two years ago when he made his confirmation but his Dad (who stood as sponsor for my son) wouldn't let him bring it back to his house (my son lives with his Dad). I have it and pray that someday my son will use it...

sorella

Oh we do see it, believe us. Just that we see that often we can do something about it... So we look for the postive - as you are doing.

We deeply regret so much that goes on; seeing the wee girls walk past our stall on the way to their First Communion; make up, expensive dresses, elaborate hair styles.

And then we pray for them ,that Jesus will touch their hearts in some way; and that we also can be allowed to touch their lives - as you are doing .

Remember too; how many families have been deeply and permanently affected and disaffected by the decades of abuse from the Church.

Can we wonder when this has been the ultimate hypocrisy?

So we strive to show compassion and integrity to them.

As you are doing also:)

Blessings this day....

quote=Splendour;58912651]Hi Puck, am glad to see someone else who sees the hypocrisy in this...

I gave my older son a bible two years ago when he made his confirmation but his Dad (who stood as sponsor for my son) wouldn't let him bring it back to his house (my son lives with his Dad). I have it and pray that someday my son will use it...[/quote]

Splendour

sorella wrote: »

Blessings this day....

Blessings to you to sorella and thank you for your input in this thread...

sorella

Splendour; you are travelling a hard road. Your prayer will hold your son safe. In every way there is.

And one day your prayer will bring him to true faith.

Blessings this day..and we are here for you...

Splendour wrote: »

Blessings to you to sorella and thank you for your input in this thread...