Another Cowen failure - Partnership Talks Fail

gandalf

Well the partnership talks that have hobbled and delayed this lame duck governments response have finally collapsed. So much for bringing the unions on board.

Going to be interesting to see the next episode of this farce unravel as the cabinet try to sort things out with the public service costs. As a PAYE worker I see them attempting to straddle us with the bill again. God help them if they bring in property tax.

http://www.irishtimes.com/newspaper/breaking/2009/0203/breaking4.htm

Big_Mac

Government: Hello Mr Union, we need to save money with pay cuts for some of the public sector staff in some shape or form or we're up the swanee

Mr Union: You're getting nowt of us. You made your bed now lie in it.

End

This took how many weeks?

The government will now proceed themselves, cue all out strikes.
'This was striking in the 1980', but for just €1 at McDonalds..........'

Speaking of the 80's, I see history repeating itself

stevoman

it will be interesting to see what happens alright. as a public servant on €30k a year and with a mortgage, a child and a partner who cant find work i can honestly say i would not welcome a cut in my pay.

ixoy

stevoman wrote: »

it will be interesting to see what happens alright. as a public servant on €30k a year and with a mortgage, a child and a partner who cant find work i cant honestly say i would'nt welcome a cut in my pay.

Double negative: So you'd welome a pay cut? Thanks for doing your bit

I assume wage cuts could be done more fairly - a certain lower limit, then incremental decreases no lower than a certain threshold. Throw in some pension levies and a few job cuts for the more unproductive sections and of course couple this with some form of tax increase.

Lplated

I'm not a govt supporter, but...

in fairness, it was going to be very unlikely that the unions agreed to cuts at the level required - turkeys and christmas etc... - so i think the whole talks exercise was merely windowdressing, govt said we need €x cuts and hosted talks, now they can go ahead with the necessary cuts but still be seen to having attempted to get the unions on board.

gazzer

ixoy wrote: »

Double negative: So you'd welome a pay cut? Thanks for doing your bit

I assume wage cuts could be done more fairly - a certain lower limit, then incremental decreases no lower than a certain threshold. Throw in some pension levies and a few job cuts for the more unproductive sections and of course couple this with some form of tax increase.

On Newstalk there a while ago they said that they had seen figures from government that suggest a 7.5% cut across PS.

stevoman

Lplated wrote: »

in fairness, it was going to be very unlikely that the unions agreed to cuts at the level required - turkeys and christmas etc... - so i think the whole talks exercise was merely windowdressing, govt said we need €x cuts and hosted talks, now they can go ahead with the necessary cuts but still be seen to having attempted to get the unions on board.

but that is almost definitly going to lead to industrial action from the unions.

getcover

The Unions will now be turned into the scapegoats, which will handily take the forcus off the fact that these were not "National Recovery Talks" but simply an exercise in cutting back the services which the poorer in our society need.
Cowen can lament the fact that the Unions "wouldn't face up to reality" or some other guff, while the bankers/developers/FF/PD and the other greedy pigs who caused this mess slip quitely away without sanction.

This country slips back to being more and more a banana republic with each passing day that Cowen/Coughlan/Lenihan/Ahern/O'Dea et al are in place.

But the message will be that "those big bad Unions will destroy the country, they are so unpatriotic".

stevoman

getcover wrote: »

Cowen can lament the fact that the Unions "wouldn't face up to reality" or some other guff, while the bankers/developers/FF/PD and the other greedy pigs who caused this mess slip quitely away without sanction.

This country slips back to being more and more a banana republic with each passing day that Cowen/Coughlan/Lenihan/Ahern/O'Dea et al are in place.

But the message will be that "those big bad Unions will destroy the country, they are so unpatriotic".

Well said. Its a disgrace the way the banks and developers in this counrty have behaved and i think its very unfair that the public service have been targeted by the media as a focus to lash out upon.

mike65

The public sector is where the state spends its day to day cash, and we have no day to day cash - ergo cuts. Get used to it. This is your future.

Taxipete29

getcover wrote: »

The Unions will now be turned into the scapegoats, which will handily take the forcus off the fact that these were not "National Recovery Talks" but simply an exercise in cutting back the services which the poorer in our society need.
Cowen can lament the fact that the Unions "wouldn't face up to reality" or some other guff, while the bankers/developers/FF/PD and the other greedy pigs who caused this mess slip quitely away without sanction.

This country slips back to being more and more a banana republic with each passing day that Cowen/Coughlan/Lenihan/Ahern/O'Dea et al are in place.

But the message will be that "those big bad Unions will destroy the country, they are so unpatriotic".

While I totally agree that Bankers/Developers etc should pay for the mess they have mostly created, its not going to happen under this government.
The time for recriminations is over, the country is on the edge and we need ideas, leadership and for the country as a whole to share the pain that is inevitable if we are to return to a competitive, vibrant economy. This includes public sector workers.

Most people in the private sector are facing pay freezes, wage cuts, short time and these are the ones still lucky enough to have a job. The public sector doesnt want to accept any of these measures, despite the fact that through benchmarking they benifited quite alot from the boom times. Gimme Gimme Gimme, but dont ask for anything in return.

Slow Motion

Can anyone tell me what alternative proposals the unions put to the government to achieve this 2bn? I do believe the talks were windowdressing and we have heard some of what the govt proposed, but what did the unions put forward?

Taxipete29

stevoman wrote: »

Well said. Its a disgrace the way the banks and developers in this counrty have behaved and i think its very unfair that the public service have been targeted by the media as a focus to lash out upon.

If Ireland were a private company it would be bankrupt and everybody on its payroll would be out of work. Why should only the private sector carry the burden.

ixoy

getcover wrote: »

The Unions will now be turned into the scapegoats, which will handily take the forcus off the fact that these were not "National Recovery Talks" but simply an exercise in cutting back the services which the poorer in our society need.

Do we know that there are cuts to services yet? Cuts to pay, isn't a cut to service - the people providing the service are still there. There's also more than a few there who aren't providing a service that poor or rich require.

Cowen can lament the fact that the Unions "wouldn't face up to reality" or some other guff, while the bankers/developers/FF/PD and the other greedy pigs who caused this mess slip quitely away without sanction.

I'd love to see them pay too... but even if we were to seize them all, lock them all, and take all their assets... could we make up the 2bn needed in the subsequent kangaroo court? We should rightly look to them for some blame, but also recognise that many in Ireland benefited from them (2nd homes and cheap credit) but also that we need to fix this. Fairness barely comes into it.

stevoman

Slow Motion wrote: »

Can anyone tell me what alternative proposals the unions put to the government to achieve this 2bn? I do believe the talks were windowdressing and we have heard some of what the govt proposed, but what did the unions put forward?

i honestly couldnt tell you what the unions have put forward on those meetings.

kmick

I cant understand why people in the public service are not willing to fund their pensions. They should however be allowed to opt out and allow their pensions become defined benefit like most of us if they choose not to fund it.

stevoman

Taxipete29 wrote: »

If Ireland were a private company it would be bankrupt and everybody on its payroll would be out of work. Why should only the private sector carry the burden.

well what i would suggest is why doesnt everybody across the country take a 7.5 pay cut or whatever figure they are coming out with. then every worker can take the burden and their will be plenty of cash going back to the exchequer.

Public servants go to work, do their job like everyone else.

im my opinion they are being scapegoated.

if the public servants are that well off and it is all such a sham, how come its only now that people are out looking for blood. during the celtic tiger years i havnt heard as much a peep of complaint from the private sectors. though, as a public servant during celtic tigers year i did have to listen to private sector workers brag to me about how much money they were making and how my public service wage was crap.

stevoman

kmick wrote: »

I cant understand why people in the public service are not willing to fund their pensions. They should however be allowed to opt out and allow their pensions become defined benefit like most of us if they choose not to fund it.

workers who joined the public serive after 1995 all pay contributions to their pensions.

abakan

stevoman wrote: »

during the celtic tiger years i havnt heard as much a peep of complaint from the private sectors. though, as a public servant during celtic tigers year i did have to listen to private sector workers brag to me about how much money they were making and how my public service wage was crap.

During the celtic tiger era. Whenever the public sector got a rise, the private sector followed.
Now when the private sector is being hit and hit hard and the government cant afford its day to day running cost it has to cut pay to its staff aswell

Remember you still cant lose your job, its the least the public sector can do.10% paycut isnt all that bad.

what would Micheal O Leary do!! Brian Cowen is going easy, still trying to keep everybody happy

steof1984

Will people please stop getting their information from tabloids

Public Servents who joined the service after 1995 DO pay into their pensions. Please tell me what benifits the average clerical officer made trough Bencmarking ???

If you want to attack greey people just look at Minister Noel Dempsey who keeps his position as a teacher (on say point 7 of the teachers scale) a substitute is there to replace him as he cant do his teacher duties (substitute on ponit 2 ) He pockets the difference along with his ministers pay and expenses

http://www.independent.ie/opinion/editorial/practise-what-you-preach-1625017.html

mike65

Were the union leadership clever by not agreeing? Will they be able to say when the cuts come "nothing to do with us" and be belived?

Blazer

steof1984 wrote: »

Will people please stop getting their information from tabloids

Public Servents who joined the service after 1995 DO pay into their pensions. Please tell me what benifits the average clerical officer made trough Bencmarking ???

If you want to attack greey people just look at Minister Noel Dempsey who keeps his position as a teacher (on say point 7 of the teachers scale) a substitute is there to replace him as he cant do his teacher duties (substitute on ponit 2 ) He pockets the difference along with his ministers pay and expenses

http://www.independent.ie/opinion/editorial/practise-what-you-preach-1625017.html

Agreed...all those TDs acting in this manner should immediately have this right removed.
You've made a career choice Noel..tough ****e if you've no job to go back to....no normal people have this fallback.

Mr.Micro

The current Government will blame everybody but itself. If the Unions do not cut a deal it is they that will be blamed. To my mind it is not really a time for Unions to be posturing and nobody wants to lose their pension or really take a pay cut, especially as Ireland is so expensive. (The very high prices should be tackled as well as there is a rip off culture that thrives in Ireland).

Maybe the best thing for this Government to do is admit defeat and either resign or hand the economy over to the IMF.

steof1984

You CAN loose your job in the Civil Service. Under T2016 P.M.D.S was introduced which is a yearly review of an individuals preformance. You are rated on a 1 to 5 scale . 1 being bad 5 being good

If you recieve a low score over the course of 2 reviews you can be sacked

Please be sure about what you post as you just add fuel to the flames with speculation about

"they only work from 10 till 4"
"Yeah and i hear they get a 2hour lunch break too"
"they all earn 50k+ a year"
"they get guaranteed incrments"
"they cant be sacked"

There is so much misinformation that QI could do a public sector special

gazzer

abakan wrote: »

During the celtic tiger era. Whenever the public sector got a rise, the private sector followed.
Now when the private sector is being hit and hit hard and the government cant afford its day to day running cost it has to cut pay to its staff aswell

Remember you still cant lose your job, its the least the public sector can do.10% paycut isnt all that bad.

what would Micheal O Leary do!! Brian Cowen is going easy, still trying to keep everybody happy

Why do people keep saying that you cant lose your job???? Since 1995 Civil Servents can and do get fired.

Slow Motion

mike65 wrote: »

Were the union leadership clever by not agreeing? Will they be able to say when the cuts come "nothing to do with us" and be belived?

Funnily enough that is exactly the impression I get! They are protecting their own backsides and can now get up in arms with a clear concience when the govt. come out this afternoon with their proposed cuts!

Taxipete29

stevoman wrote: »

well what i would suggest is why doesnt everybody across the country take a 7.5 pay cut or whatever figure they are coming out with. then every worker can take the burden and their will be plenty of cash going back to the exchequer.

Public servants go to work, do their job like everyone else.

im my opinion they are being scapegoated.

if the public servants are that well off and it is all such a sham, how come its only now that people are out looking for blood. during the celtic tiger years i havnt heard as much a peep of complaint from the private sectors. though, as a public servant during celtic tigers year i did have to listen to private sector workers brag to me about how much money they were making and how my public service wage was crap.

They were not being asked to take a pay-cut. They are being asked to contribute more to there own pension. Does it mean less take home pay YES.
Will they get it back at some point in the future YES

The private sector is already taking its measures. Did the 1900 Dell workers not turn up everyday and do their work and deliver for their employers??????

No one is saying most PS workers are that well off, but they have job security and pension rights most people in the private sector can only dream about. They are being asked to SHARE a burden we all carry.

If we dont get our house in order and we go bust and IMF come in what happens the public sector then??? Massive JOB LOSSES, not pay cuts.

RedPlanet

stevoman wrote: »

well what i would suggest is why doesnt everybody across the country take a 7.5 pay cut or whatever figure they are coming out with. then every worker can take the burden and their will be plenty of cash going back to the exchequer.

Not until I see legislation and enforcment of a 7.5% reduction in prices at my local shops, the esb, eircom etc.
Think we'll be seeing that?
Not a chance.

stevoman

abakan wrote: »

Remember you still cant lose your job, its the least the public sector can do.10% paycut isnt all that bad.

a civil servant who joined after 1995 has their work which is assessed annually and if its not up to scratch they can be let go like anyone lese.

gazzer

stevoman wrote: »

Im a civil servant who joined after 1995 so if my work which is assessed annually is not up to scratch i can be let go like anyone else.

Exactly. I have worked in 4 government departments and have seen people get fired from all of them.

SkepticOne

The problem is that the trough that the public sector feed out of is getting smaller. I'm sure the government being spineless would love to provide large pay rises to the public sector given the damage the public sector can do to the country if they don't get what they perceive to be their entitlements but the governments ability to cave in has been reduced substantially in recent months.

mike65

Mr.Micro wrote: »

Maybe the best thing for this Government to do is admit defeat and either resign or hand the economy over to the IMF.

Trust me you don't want the IMF in, thier only interest is repayment of loans they lend at a high interest rate. As such policies tend to gut anything that is not considered productive and to raise taxes. Then the Public Sector would really have something to complain about as would the rest of us as all manner of social services a stripped to nothing.

20goto10

Who runs this country, the unions or the government? The unions are running the show right now and its time for this government to show some balls. They've gone through their legal obligation of trying to bash out a deal with the unions which was always a pointless task. What they need to do now is get mean. They offered a fair deal and it was rejected, so now it should be back to plan A. Pay cuts across the public sector. how'd'ya like them apples.

But somehow I doubt they have the balls.

stevoman

gazzer wrote: »

Exactly. I have worked in 4 government departments and have seen people get fired from all of them.

On the other hand i have seen staff being let go.

steof1984

[Quote/] They are being asked to SHARE a burden we all carry.[Quote/]

I have no problem sharing the burden . We are in harsh times but i'd like to throwback to 2002. When most people in the private sector were being giving christmas bonus and other perks . Why wasnt that shared equally . People loved to mention how much they earned and how they got 2 rises a year of
x000's where us civil servents were poor and stupid for taking the job that gave no bonus and on average a 1k increment a year

Its these people who i have a problem with who now demand that we SHARE the burden. The media are doing a great job of reflecting the limelight on Public Sector workers when really it should be shone on the property tycoons, bank CEO's and Ministers who have a vested interest. But they dont do that as its easier to just attack the average worker

Mr.Micro

For the Government its like walking a tightrope, on one hand it has to appease the unions, make cuts across the board and at the same time not alienate the public sector workers, civil servants and others who carry out the Government machinations, without whom the whole state structure will collpase. What a dilemma.

gazzer

stevoman wrote: »

On the other hand i have seen staff being let go.

Yes I agree that I havnt seen PS staff get let go .. only fired but I just wanted to point out that a job in the PS/CS isnt a job for life like most people seem to think it is.

Mr.Micro

mike65 wrote: »

Trust me you don't want the IMF in, thier only interest is repayment of loans they lend at a high interest rate. As such policies tend to gut anything that is not considered productive and to raise taxes. Then the Public Sector would really have something to complain about as would the rest of us as all manner of social services a stripped to nothing.

Yes I agree, no IMF but does this Government have any answers if it cannot get anything right. Who is going to give it a bail out?

partyguinness

These pay talk are a charade. Who do the Unions and public sector think they are holding the Gov and the rest of the country to ransom.

The Government should do what is elected to do. Make decision on behalf of the country and the people within. Not pandering to Unions who are only interested in their owns pockets.

The Gov has a chance to earn back a lot of respect if it makes the hard decisions now...grow a pair of balls and make the necessary cuts..wage cuts or redundancies whichever.

Let the public sector strike..the Gov must look after all the country...and the publib sector wld have little or no support amongst the general public.

I cannot see how it is a "Cowan Failure"...the Unions were simply never going to back to its members and try to sell pay cuts or redundancies.

It was a charade.

steof1984

The Government cant afford for the Public Sector to go on Strike. Imagine
No welfare
No revenue
No Guards
No Hospital workers
No Sanation

Nothing

The country would fall into Chaos

Imagine the scene in the simpsons movie when Marge and the kids return to Springfield and Moe is the Emperor

Although Brian Clown would look funny with a traffic cone on his head

ixoy

steof1984 wrote: »

You CAN loose your job in the Civil Service. Under T2016 P.M.D.S was introduced which is a yearly review of an individuals preformance. You are rated on a 1 to 5 scale . 1 being bad 5 being good

If you recieve a low score over the course of 2 reviews you can be sacked

I know all that, but isn't it quite difficult to get a low score? The Sunday Times published the figures quite recently and only about .7% (or less) in some departments got a 2 or below (hard to believe given some of the wasters). A 2 I believe would still mean you got your pay increase but were ineligible for promotion. How about applying a bell curve model to this instead, where only a certain percentage can get each score? I believe it was recommended but not implemented. In other words, a stronger meritocratic element - which shouldn't bother any of the CS/PS posters here as they're all hard workers.

BTW, I never saw alll these pay increases every year and multiple bonuses in the private sector. Stupid IT industry collapsed in '02 when I went into it. Nor did I ever see bench-marking... not all in the private sector flourished!

glaston

I work in a company that had a defined benefit pension, it has been abolished. If the markets go down the toilet my pension follows however I will still have to pay the defined benefit pension of public sector workers.
I'm not happy with that.

partyguinness

I have a good few friends in the public sector particularly the Local Autorities.

They state "Yes" you can technically get sacked but you would need to come in to work with a machine gun and kill a few people and even then you would have a good chance of keeping your job.

That was their example not mine.

quad_red

steof1984 wrote: »

You CAN loose your job in the Civil Service. Under T2016 P.M.D.S was introduced which is a yearly review of an individuals preformance. You are rated on a 1 to 5 scale . 1 being bad 5 being good

If you recieve a low score over the course of 2 reviews you can be sacked

The Performance Management and Development System (PMDS) rates civil servants in five grades, with only the lowest denied an annual pay increment. It was introduced following the Sustaining Progress deal of 2003-2005.

The scheme was designed to increase productivity in the public service. Civil service unions voted against PMDS in 2006, saying it would be used to withhold pay rises gained through benchmarking.

The figures released to The Sunday Times show they had nothing to worry about.

Just 1.5% of those rated merited the second lowest ranking which meant they needed to improve their performance. These 285 civil servants still received their annual increment but are denied the opportunity to apply for promotion to a higher grade for one year.

More than 98% of those assessed were graded between three and five. Grade three means the employee has met all requirements and is eligible for promotion. Just under 40% of all civil servants were marked in this category, while 50% were graded as a four, meaning they exceeded requirements.

http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/news/world/ireland/article5015042.ece

gazzer

partyguinness wrote: »

I have a good few friends in the public sector particularly the Local Autorities.

They state "Yes" you can technically get sacked but you would need to come in to work with a machine gun and kill a few people and even then you would have a good chance of keeping your job.

That was their example not mine.

I personnally know 2 people that were let go for sending x-rated emails to a senior colleague.
I also worked in an area where 3 staff were let for for excessive sick leave.
I worked in another area where 2 staff were let go for excessive lates.

Believe me you can be sacked for a lot less than coming into work with a machine gun (though I have felt like that a few times )

gandalf

Bonuses? What bonuses. I have been in the workforce since 1991 I have gotten a total of 2 Christmas Bonuses in those times? Anything additional I got in those jobs I had to earn. I have been made redundant twice. For the last few years as things got more competitive in the field I and the company I work for exist in we have had a pay freeze.

A lot of people in the public sector need to realise that an awful lot of private sector workers are hurting and hurting bad, a lot have lost jobs and a lot more of us will. If a pay cut is a means for the public sector to minimise job cuts they should take it because an awful lot of us in the private sector (including yours truly) may not even have that luxury.

The other thing to consider is if we have to get loans from the IMF then what this government or commentators are proposing will seem very lenient indeed.

Taxipete29

steof1984 wrote: »

[Quote/] They are being asked to SHARE a burden we all carry.[Quote/]

I have no problem sharing the burden . We are in harsh times but i'd like to throwback to 2002. When most people in the private sector were being giving christmas bonus and other perks . Why wasnt that shared equally . People loved to mention how much they earned and how they got 2 rises a year of
x000's where us civil servents were poor and stupid for taking the job that gave no bonus and on average a 1k increment a year

Its these people who i have a problem with who now demand that we SHARE the burden. The media are doing a great job of reflecting the limelight on Public Sector workers when really it should be shone on the property tycoons, bank CEO's and Ministers who have a vested interest. But they dont do that as its easier to just attack the average worker

A very small % of people were getting huge pay increases every year. The rest of us got what was given in Partnership agreements.

People in the private sector did get bonuses, but now they are losing their jobs. You must take the good with the bad. The government, bankers, developers etc got us into this mess but unfortunatly as is the way of the world the ordinary person must pay for it. Why should PS workers be immune from pay cuts.

The Government has wrecked this country, but people kept voting them back in. The writing was on the wall before the last election but people thought FF were a safe pair of hands for the economy. Wrong. The bankers and developers did not spend the governments money, the PS did. The Government now have no money therefore PS must suffer like the rest of us.

Berti Vogts

steof1984 wrote: »

The Government cant afford for the Public Sector to go on Strike. Imagine
No welfare
No revenue
No Guards
No Hospital workers
No Sanation

Nothing

The country would fall into Chaos

Imagine the scene in the simpsons movie when Marge and the kids return to Springfield and Moe is the Emperor

Although Brian Clown would look funny with a traffic cone on his head

Are you suggesting that you would prefer to hold the country to ransom, threaten the solvency of the state and potentially allow the IMF to come in rather than make a contribution to your pension the way every other worker does?

ParkRunner

3% on the first €15k
6% on the next €5k
and 10% on the rest

That seems to be what is in store for public service cuts

steof1984

No i wouldnt like to hold the country to randsom. Im just saying if the government take a " well do it anyway" approach then thats whats gonna happen. I have no problem taking a cut as i know the suitation is hard for most people out there

My problem is that the people who made their money out of this mess now expect us to all take it on the chin. i think anyone under 30k should not have to take a cut in take home pay (both public and private) and that the % the rest pay should increase with their wages.

People in this country have too much of a "take it and moan in the pub anout it" approach to things. While i understand in may be harder in the private sector to tackle things thankfully in the public sector we can stand up for ourselves and we shouldnt be made feel like were greedy for doing so.

partyguinness

Possibilities wrote: »

Are you suggesting that you would prefer to hold the country to ransom, threaten the solvency of the state and potentially allow the IMF to come in rather than make a contribution to your pension the way every other worker does?

Well thats it..the public sector/unions think they can just sit back and do nothing.

The Gov needs to grow balls and make decisions they are elected to make for the good of ALL the country. Not pander to Unions trying to justify their existance.

It is often said that a sector that has a strong Union is a sure sign of inefficiency and protectionism.

Abolish Unions I say (yeah I know its constitutionaly protected)...what are the public sector scared of?

Let them go on strike I say...it could hardly make matters worse

And if it does end it strikes I hope they are not paid...plus who would support them?