Ireland Vs. France: Make or break?

WoollyRedHat

This could easily be a case of the Six nations being over for us before it even properly began, if we are to lose the match. And most people will agree that a win would be vital to our chances and be sweet revenge for the French beating us two years ago in such a cruel way.

It will be close and strongly battled by both sides, so the opening should be very interesting indeed for us.

D.S.

Or we could lose, take a cold hard look at what went wrong, and address our failures for the England game..

It's not make or break. It's make or break with regards to the grandslam, that's it.

Personally, i'd like Declan to use this season as a transition season and start building for the world cup even if it's at the expense of immediate sucess..maybe that's contentious. But we have some excellent youngsters coming through and I'd like to see them blooded in...

NickNolte

That's about the height of it. If we can't get early momentum by beating France at home then I'd imagine we'll have run well out of steam by the time it comes to Cardiff. France, in my opinion, is a must-win if we're even to make it higher than 4th place.

anonymous_joe

Worst France team in years. If we can't beat them, we've no right to be competing for tournaments.

tbaymusicman

i pray we win it if we get the win well i think the rest of the matches will end in the same result even the welsh who are in inspiring form!!!i see your man hook doesn't give us much chance:( stupid old man must be losing it hehe:P:P

corny

It is make or break. Defeat will bring the deepest despair with everybody convinced our poor form will continue unchecked. A win and we're firmly back on track. Has to have a baring on the rest of the championship.

toomevara

No, it isn't make or break but it is the game that will define the 6N for Ireland...i.e. will it be a charge for a championship or a mid table slog. We can loose it and come back, but a win would be immeasurably better for our chances...

Serenity Now!

WoollyRedHat wrote: »

This could easily be a case of the Six nations being over for us before it even properly began, if we are to lose the match. And most people will agree that a win would be vital to our chances and be sweet revenge for the French beating us two years ago in such a cruel way.

It will be close and strongly battled by both sides, so the opening should be very interesting indeed for us.

The championship can still be won if a loss occurs. Just like two years ago when it went down to points.

Also on another point as I've seen it mentioned here in this thread already, a successful and canny coach such as Dec Kidney will never use a year as a 'transition year'. The first step to building for a RWC squad is to have wins under the belt and championship wins at that. There are young players in the squad. You won't see any more changes until tour time or November series time.

There are also no easy games in this comp and you can bet your houses that the best team possible will be put onfield. None of this arrogant "[untapped player name] should be in for Scotland and Italy" bollocks. :rolleyes:

twinytwo

D.S. wrote: »

Or we could lose, take a cold hard look at what went wrong, and address our failures for the England game..

It's not make or break. It's make or break with regards to the grandslam, that's it.

Personally, i'd like Declan to use this season as a transition season and start building for the world cup even if it's at the expense of immediate sucess..maybe that's contentious. But we have some excellent youngsters coming through and I'd like to see them blooded in...

You must be joking... even if he wanted to he cant do this. IF he was to let younger guys play and we get our ass handed to us you are going to have the usual **** of people looking for his head etc etc etc..... At the end of the day he is being paid to win and thats what he has to try and do

Noopti

Yes, I think it is make or break. In the 6N momentum is very important, and you need to have the winning mentality.

Look at 2007, if we had won that game we would surely have gone on to win the GS.

Serenity Now!

Noopti wrote: »

Yes, I think it is make or break. In the 6N momentum is very important, and you need to have the winning mentality.

Look at 2007, if we had won that game we would surely have gone on to win the GS.

And if Ireland let in one less try or Scotland scored one less, then Ireland would have won the championship in a season where they lost to France.

Noopti

Yes, but at the end of the day they only way to ensure a championship is to win every game, so you are not relying on tries scores, points diff etc.

In a short tournament like the 6N half of the battle is mental. So if you are going into a game having won your previous 3 then you should be in good shape, mentally.

D.S.

twinytwo wrote: »

You must be joking... even if he wanted to he cant do this. IF he was to let younger guys play and we get our ass handed to us you are going to have the usual **** of people looking for his head etc etc etc..... At the end of the day he is being paid to win and thats what he has to try and do

Appreciate this. Of course Declan will have to go for immediate success but I think this could be at the expense of long term success.

My point is that Ireland should now be starting to build for the next world cup in 2011. Both England and France are in transition for a reason, they building squads, experimenting with players. Take a look at the elder statesmen below from the current squad. Add on 2 years. Now consider what age do players in those position normally peak. Likelihood of injury/loss of form. I think we are extremely top heavy with regards to elder statesmen. I am not advocating throwing the baby out with the bath water and just bringing in a whole load of youngters. But we only have this years six nations and next years six nations to build a squad for the next world cup. That's only 10 six nation games and a handful of tests to give some of the younger players key experience. We should play our best team obviously, but still have an eye on blooding a new squad. Keep an eye an how much game time the below get during the 6 nations.

John Hayes - 35
Jerry Flannery - 30
Marcus Horan - 32
Bernard Jackman - 32
Donncha O'Callaghan - 29 (30 in March)
Paul o Connell - 29
Mick O Driscoll - 30
Malcolm O Kelly - 34 (don't expect him to make it to World cup obviously)
Alan Quinlan - 34
David Wallace - 32 (33 in July)

Shane Horgan - 30
Gordon Darcy - 29 (next Tuesday)
Girvan Dempsey - 33
BOD - 30
Geordan Murphy - 30
Peter Stringer - 31
Paddy Wallace - 29 (30 in August)
ROG - 31 (32 in March)

buck65

Serenity Now! wrote: »

The championship can still be won if a loss occurs. Just like two years ago when it went down to points.

Also on another point as I've seen it mentioned here in this thread already, a successful and canny coach such as Dec Kidney will never use a year as a 'transition year'. The first step to building for a RWC squad is to have wins under the belt and championship wins at that. There are young players in the squad. You won't see any more changes until tour time or November series time.

There are also no easy games in this comp and you can bet your houses that the best team possible will be put onfield. None of this arrogant "[untapped player name] should be in for Scotland and Italy" bollocks. :rolleyes:

I agree with that last part, some posters who fell in love with I Humphreys and these guys a month ago were saying we should try these new guys vs Itay and Scotland- absolute arrogant nonsense we would do well to beat these teams away with our first team.
Ireland must beat the French on Saturday. Enough excuses - we are good enough, at home , new manager and with 2 teams in the HCup 1/4 finals. Building for the future should be done by blending 2 or 3 players each year into the side like Kearney, Fitzgerald last year, now maybe Earls and who knows this year. Looking at a world cup that is 2.5 (that we have a no chance of winning) away is daft. It is the 6 nations that is our bread and butter
**** or get off the pot now lads.

twinytwo

buck65 wrote: »

I agree with that last part, some posters who fell in love with I Humphreys and these guys a month ago were saying we should try these new guys vs Itay and Scotland- absolute arrogant nonsense we would do well to beat these teams away with our first team.
Ireland must beat the French on Saturday. Enough excuses - we are good enough, at home , new manager and with 2 teams in the HCup 1/4 finals. Building for the future should be done by blending 2 or 3 players each year into the side like Kearney, Fitzgerald last year, now maybe Earls and who knows this year. Looking at a world cup that is 2.5 (that we have a no chance of winning) away is daft. It is the 6 nations that is our bread and butter
**** or get off the pot now lads.

True to be honest to have a chance we would want to be consistanly beating or only losing by a few points to the likes of france sa and the abs

MikeHoncho

6 nations is much much more important to us than the World Cup and thats how it should be. Fair enough if we were winning it every year we might want to be looking at World Cups as a possibility but we havent won one in 23 years folks. Any talk of building for a world cup is complete nonsense. This is a really important match on Saturday as is every game in the 6 nations (Italy and Scotland included).

D.S.

MikeHoncho wrote: »

6 nations is much much more important to us than the World Cup and thats how it should be.

Nonsense - the Worldcup is the pinnacle of rugby. We may not always be in a position to win it but we should be building our teams around at least competing and performing in this even. I don't agree that the 6 nations is more important. Look at the coverage, and discussion generated after Ireland's last world cup performance. (Poor squad management in the run up to this world cup is what caused all the fuss by the way - If we had performed and just gone out in the group, there would of been no complaints)

MikeHoncho wrote: »

. Any talk of building for a world cup is complete nonsense..

It's far from a nonsense. See above. Again I am not suggesting we throw out any established players. I am not saying the 6 nations is not hugely important. It's a massive game Saturday as is every game. I simply saying is it not too much to ask for the management of the Irish rugby team to balance both - short term success and long term squad building. It's a simple enough question. Maybe it is not possible? Look at our age profile of the squad members I posted before. Watch what game time they get and remember that there are not a huge amount of international games available before 2011 at this level.

As an aside, as a top 10 nation, if we are going into any competition and not showing any ambition to get to the final or win it with the squad we have (and the squad we have is still v v good) then I consider that small minded thinking and a lack of ambition. We've good players right now, many of them peaking. The munster team are consistently performing in the ERC. And there are more than few top class players from leinster. We have grossly underachieved the last few seasons. We have not been good at squad management. We have some youngsters with excellent potential. We should be able to balance experience and youth at appropriate times in the season.

Eddie was found out for sticking with his preferred players and not blooding new players. Hopefully we don't make the same mistake twice..

bleg

15 - Robert Kearney (UCD - Leinster)

14 - Tommy Bowe (Ospreys)

13 - Brian O'Driscoll (UCD - Leinster) Captain

12 - Paddy Wallace (Ballymena - Ulster)

11 - Luke Fitzgerald (Blackrock College - Leinster)

10 - Ronan O'Gara (Cork Constitution - Munster)

9 - Tomas O'Leary (Dolphin - Munster)


1 - Marcus Horan (Shannon - Munster)

2 - Jerry Flannery (Shannon - Munster)

3 - John Hayes (Bruff- Munster)

4 - Donncha O'Callaghan (Cork Constitution - Munster)

5 - Paul O'Connell (Young Munster - Munster)

6 - Stephen Ferris (Dungannon - Ulster)

7 - David Wallace (Garryowen - Munster)

8 - Jamie Heaslip (Naas - Leinster)

Replacements:

16 - Rory Best (Banbridge - Ulster)
17 - Tom Court (Malone - Ulster)*
18 - Malcolm O’Kelly (St.Mary’s College - Leinster)
19 - Denis Leamy (Cork Constitution - Munster)
20 - Peter Stringer (Shannon - Munster)
21 - Gordon D’Arcy (Lansdowne - Leinster)
22 - Geordan Murphy (Leicester)

Not considered due to injury:

Keith Earls (Young Munster - Munster)

JQ25

Delighted with that selection, it plays everyone in THEIR position, not chopping and changing to get the best players in. I'm sure a lot of people will argue about Paddy Wallace, but I definitely think it's the best option at the moment.

Fitz just doesn't work in centre, and Darcy hasn't been given enough time by Cheika in the centre, maybe later in the tournament he can move in. I have to say, im really happy that horgan in nowhere near the starting 15 or 22, although he has experience and is seen as a big game player I dont think his performances this season merit his inclusion!

Very strong bench with players who can actually make a real impact when they come on, ie stringer and leamy. Would have liked to have seen Sean O Brien or Jennings in so atleast we would have a real out and out 7 but sure what can ya do!

Role on Saturday!

Rattlehead_ie

D.S. wrote: »

Personally, i'd like Declan to use this season as a transition season and start building for the world cup even if it's at the expense of immediate sucess..maybe that's contentious. But we have some excellent youngsters coming through and I'd like to see them blooded in...

While I do see you're point and it is well made. I think that Kidney has already pointed out and made it very public that the self esteem in the Irish Dressing room is nothing like it used to be, the confidence, the trust and passion that was once there has been dulled.

I would say Kidneys 1st step as coach is to get that team confidence, self believe and passion back. I can't see that with younger players being put out to be blooded in and just getting bet.

WoollyRedHat

While losing the match won't rule us out of still being a contender on the title, we will be less favoured. Moral is essential, so it would really be a great start to beat the French, it would set off a wonderful precedent imo.