Kids and fitness

Biff11

HI,

Just looking for some of your expert opinions here.

My niece is 13, not 14 till June. She plays GAA and is back training for the new season. Now firstly they are training in the gym and secondly they have been given diet information as in what to eat and what not to eat.

My issue would be that kids are kids and they are too young to be worrying about diet. While eating well is important in anyone's life i don't think a major issue should be made for kids of that age. Secondly i feel they should be learning the game as opposed to diet being the important factor. Also whats the need to be bringing them into the gym to use the machines.

Would be very interested to her some peoples expert and educated opinions

Thanks

rubadub

Depends on how "enforcing" they are of the diet. I think it is crazy the lack of nutritional education that is taught in school, most people have no idea what they is healthy or how much they should be eating. They get their info from the ads, telling them that crap is good.

My "physical education" consisted of running around a field once a week. Also this entire subject was considered a "treat", i.e. if people were misbehaving they might not be allowed have their phyiscal education class, f*cking crazy system.

In 5th & 6th year it was dropped completely for me since I did honours maths. I think a lot more people would benefit from REAL physical education rather than knowing calculus....

thirtyfoot

Biff11 wrote: »

HI,

Just looking for some of your expert opinions here.

My niece is 13, not 14 till June. She plays GAA and is back training for the new season. Now firstly they are training in the gym and secondly they have been given diet information as in what to eat and what not to eat.

My issue would be that kids are kids and they are too young to be worrying about diet. While eating well is important in anyone's life i don't think a major issue should be made for kids of that age. Secondly i feel they should be learning the game as opposed to diet being the important factor. Also whats the need to be bringing them into the gym to use the machines.

Would be very interested to her some peoples expert and educated opinions

Thanks

I'd share your concerns. 13 is way too young to be going down this route. At that age you should still be enjoying your sport and not going down the child prodigy approach. I'd say from 7-11 should be all about fun and games and no competition, 12-16 all about learning your skills and techniques and then 17+ when you are fully skilled move onto conditioning. This is obviously a club pushing too hard and being like those obsessive parents who try to create a child genius. Study by the US Olympic Council, The Path To Excellence found interesting findings from Olympic athletes.

http://coaching.usolympicteam.com/coaching/kpub.nsf/v/path

This website gives the gist of what was said in the survey
http://www.elitetrack.com/blogs/details/4301/

Take note of some of the conclusions from a USOC report, “The Path to Excellence,” a study done surveying US Olympians from 1984 through to 2000. Here are some cogent points from that report:

-Olympians were most often introduced to their sport through unstructured activities.
-Once enrolled in an organized sport, quality coaching was important to insure acquisition of sound technique.
-Clubs and community programs were primarily responsible for training these athletes.
-Physical education classes played a key role in developing fitness and in learning basic skills.
-It took the average Olympian three years to find success at the local level as a child.
-It took 12 to 13 years from starting the introduction to their sport before they made their first Olympic team.
-Many played multiple sports as teenagers, they did not specialize!

hunnymonster

I agree the activities should be fun at that age.

When you say diet sheets, Are the kids given specific rigid diets to follow or are they just being introduced to the principles of healthy eating. I'm very surprised at how little kids these days know about the basics and see absolutely no harm in introducing this in a non-perscriptive way.


On a related note, I was reading in yesterdays paper, the inital findings of the Jamie Oliver diet in the UK schools, In a number of UK schools where the new schoold dinners were introduced.
-english results up 8%
maths results up 10%
absenteeism down 25 % (I think I'm remembering the numbers correctly)

Adam

op, does your niece enjoy it? does she feel she is being hard done by in any way? i know she's still just a kid but there's nothing wrong with a healthy lifestyle at any age, and that's all that sounds like to me? if i'm performing in a sport, i'd rather know something about how my diet might affect my health and fitness.
and you haven't said anything specific about the dietery advice being given. it could be as simple as 'make sure you have a healthy breakfast and try not to eat chocolate or junk food more than once a day!'. well that's just good common sense, and in a world where child obesity is so high, i think it's the way forward to be honest. would you rather she was eating crap and sitting in front of the tv all day?

edit: having read the op again, this line: "too young to be worrying about diet" is rather ridiculous. you are never too young, or too old, to worry about your diet. i have an 11 year old sister who is quite substantially overweight and i wish she was as active and health conscious as your niece.

also i dont see the relevance of them going to the gym? it's the dead of winter, if anything that is a luxury, i didn't/don't know of any sports teams at that age that get to train in any environment above a muddy field!

Colm_OReilly

If they're on machines it's a horribly constructed program.

What's wrong with giving kids advice on how to eat?

What's wrong with teaching children exercise habits, and how to exercise correctly? What if the child's sport was Olympic Weightlifting? Would that be acceptable to lift weights? What if it's gymnastics? That requires serious conditioning work to be even be able to develop the technical mastery? If they were training track and field, why wouldn't you condition them?

At 13/14 they're no longer kids, they're adolescents, and infantalising them won't help at all.

I'm very breif and scatty in my post but hopefully I got some point across.

thirtyfoot

Colm_OReilly wrote: »

What's wrong with teaching children exercise habits, and how to exercise correctly? What if the child's sport was Olympic Weightlifting? Would that be acceptable to lift weights? What if it's gymnastics? That requires serious conditioning work to be even be able to develop the technical mastery? If they were training track and field, why wouldn't you condition them?

At 13/14 they're no longer kids, they're adolescents, and infantalising them won't help at all.

.

They are GAA players. The skills of GAA don't require you to lift weights (even if is a machine weight). From what I understand the best practice for kids in sport is that skill education should be the priority in the 12-16 age group. If they are Olympic Weighlifters then lifting is the skill so thats fine but they are GAA players.

The greatest example of Irish sport being left in a gym was the Rugby World Cup in '07. The most prepared, conditioned and strongest group of Irish sportsmen ever couldn't string a series of plays together against the minnows of world rugby.

At the age it should be skills, skills, skills. Try coach an adult aged 20 skills which they should have mastered when they were 13 or 14 and its very difficult. You end up wasting time instead of working on conditioning. Any long term athlete development programs will definetly not have 13 year old girls in a gym, very short-sighted in my opinion.

Adam

Tingle wrote: »

They are GAA players. The skills of GAA don't require you to lift weights (even if is a machine weight). From what I understand the best practice for kids in sport is that skill education should be the priority in the 12-16 age group. If they are Olympic Weighlifters then lifting is the skill so thats fine but they are GAA players.

The greatest example of Irish sport being left in a gym was the Rugby World Cup in '07. The most prepared, conditioned and strongest group of Irish sportsmen ever couldn't string a series of plays together against the minnows of world rugby.

At the age it should be skills, skills, skills. Try coach an adult aged 20 skills which they should have mastered when they were 13 or 14 and its very difficult. You end up wasting time instead of working on conditioning. Any long term athlete development programs will definetly not have 13 year old girls in a gym, very short-sighted in my opinion.

i agree to an extent, but you're on a tangent regarding what will hone them in to the best athletes they can be as opposed to the OP's initial concerns that this is all somehow wrong, that they shouldn't be doing such training at all presumably?

thirtyfoot

Mirror wrote: »

i agree to an extent, but you're on a tangent regarding what will hone them in to the best athletes they can be as opposed to the OP's initial concerns that this is all somehow wrong, that they shouldn't be doing such training at all presumably?

Long term athlete development looks to ensure the kid is still playing their sport or at least being active when they are 20 or 30 or 40 years old not just creating world beaters by the age of 20. Doing the right stuff at the right time will ensure they enjoy it more. Just because a kid likes doing something doesn't mean its right. I'd imagine if I was a 13 year old I wouldn't fancy doing a workout in a gym on machines.

Yes its right its better she was doing this instead of pigging out in front of telly, but a coach should know better. I'd imagine its not part of the coaching plan that is fed down from Croke Park.

http://gamesdevelopment.gaa.ie/page/coaching_kids.html#Bookmark4

Tristram

Where I live juvenile county development squads/elite performance groups for underage players are all given information on proper nutrition and physical development exercises. I don't think weights come into it until 16ish (not sure, would have to check), attention is drawn to core development through body resistance exercises. I think its great tbh. A much needed step in the right direction. We lag so far behind when it comes to underage sports development in Ireland that any moves to educate young athletes is more than welcome!

Roper

It'll take a longer post than this to explain my thinking on this point, but here goes.

It's certainly not too young to have resistance training as a part of a balanced programme, but that doesn't mean that any old resistance programme is correct. If they're being brought into the gym to use machines then I think that's a really bad method. If they're out on the pitch or in the hall before their regular training, using light dumbells, broom handles, medicine balls and things like that then I think you're on the right track. But in my opinion, this should be in addition to as much game play and skills training as possible. Letting a kid do a circuit using his/her bodyweight for 20 minutes before the pitch session is a lot better than having them indoors, sitting on a machine which is made for an adult frame.

You have to remember that saying "oh just let them play the game" is a noble idea, but the reality is that most kids only play the game (whatever it may be) for a few hours a week, on training or match days. It's not 20 years ago when the streets were the XBox and the playground was the PS3. In many cases, the child has to learn fundamental athletic movements that would have been entirely natural to someone 20 years ago. Things like balancing on one foot are extraordinarily difficult for some kids. Sounds crazy but it's true. Kids are weaker, they don't climb trees. They're less balanced, they don't walk on walls. They're not as agile, they don't spend the summers trying to perfect the cartwheel on the green with their mates. They're not as fit, few kids walk to school (I used to run to school, I wasn't a freak I was just always late). They're more prone to injury, they exhibit similar weaknesses as office workers due to the sedentary nature of a modern childhood.

So on the one hand you have the need to address these weaknesses through a strength programme, and on the other you have the fact that most coaches only know what they've done, which is adult programmes. So the idea of giving kids a strength programme goes from a noble and necessary one to "Take the coach's gym programme and divide by 4. BINGO! We have a 13 year old's one"

I've designed young adolescent's strength programme's in the past and you'd be very surprised how difficult it is. Most 13 year olds are at totally different stages of development.

Mikel

I would have them doing strength work to address their lack of athleticism, body weight should be sufficient, but the largest emphasis should be on technique/skill development.

You can see the results of over emphasis on conditioning rather than skills in our soccer and Gaa players, rugby too I'd imagine.

I didn't realise things had got so bad regarding the basic movements though, anything which gets them out running around is good so, as long as it's not too regimented.

mushykeogh

Tingle wrote: »

They are GAA players. The skills of GAA don't require you to lift weights (even if is a machine weight). From what I understand the best practice for kids in sport is that skill education should be the priority in the 12-16 age group. If they are Olympic Weighlifters then lifting is the skill so thats fine but they are GAA players.

Learning the olympic lifts with broom handles will only enhance there fundamental skills, flexibility and over all strength. It will also provide them with attributes that will benefit them should they at a later stage try soccer, rugby, racquet sports, sprinting, even swimming. If someone between 12 and 16 years can deep squat with a broom handle over there head (with correct technique) i dare say they are better able to develop than any players who havent developed these skills.
Machine weights for 13 year olds? Wrong. A structured session using medballs and broom handles and developing movement skill, patterns and flexibility, Excellent.

''My issue would be that kids are kids and they are too young to be worrying about diet'' , i think most 13 year olds have appaling dietry habits and i dont have a problem with anyone highlighting what is healty to eat and what is not, provided it is given in an educational format and not being so strict as to have the kids calorie counting! From training kids as young as seven to 18, iv found that many teenagers cant even identify what a healthy snack would be!

Sangre

Tingle wrote: »

The greatest example of Irish sport being left in a gym was the Rugby World Cup in '07. The most prepared, conditioned and strongest group of Irish sportsmen ever couldn't string a series of plays together against the minnows of world rugby.

What point are you actually making this? Are you saying professional rugby players shouldn't use the gym? This group of strong, conditioned and prepared Irish sportsmen are also champions of europe at club level and mangers league champions.

No advice can be given without knowing exactly what the niece is being told. It could be as simple as 'eat loads of carbs/pasta before a game'. Personally I think Ireland is a farce when it comes to diet, exercise and sports development.

Tristram

Sangre wrote: »

No advice can be given without knowing exactly what the niece is being told.

Most insightful comment in thread so far.

thirtyfoot

Sangre wrote: »

What point are you actually making this? Are you saying professional rugby players shouldn't use the gym? This group of strong, conditioned and prepared Irish sportsmen are also champions of europe at club level and mangers league champions.

.

Simple enough point. Sometimes you can forget about the most important part of a sport and go chasing numbers in a gym. Its a classic example of how things go wrong when there is a disconnect between the S&C coach and the field or head coach. I'm specifically talking about the Irish setup not Munster or Leinster of which the shortfalls (irish team that is) have been well documented.

Same point here in some ways. Kids should (when only 13) focus on the skills of the game and master those, there is plenty of time in late teens to get strong and conditioned. When 17 its probably better being able to solo off two feet or be able to hook an opponent in hurling than being able to power clean properly if you play GAA.

Sangre

Tingle wrote: »

Simple enough point. Sometimes you can forget about the most important part of a sport and go chasing numbers in a gym. Its a classic example of how things go wrong when there is a disconnect between the S&C coach and the field or head coach. I'm specifically talking about the Irish setup not Munster or Leinster of which the shortfalls (irish team that is) have been well documented.

This assumes you believe the media bull**** storm surrounding that tour. Obviously nothing to do with predictable tactics or stale player combinations used. That or the bull**** games they had to play during the summer after a long season.

Same point here in some ways. Kids should (when only 13) focus on the skills of the game and master those, there is plenty of time in late teens to get strong and conditioned. When 17 its probably better being able to solo off two feet or be able to hook an opponent in hurling than being able to power clean properly if you play GAA.

And they can't do both? No coach is ever going to not focus on basic skill sets. Doesn't mean he can't also tell them how to fuel their bodies and increase their strength. What is so different between increasing aerobic fitness and increasing muscular strength?

Since you brought up the rugby example. Last year was the u20s world cup. The best of Irish rugby was picked to play the Cup in Ireland. They got absolutely smashed. All the skill in the world didn't prevent them being hit back in every tackle, being turned and just being battered. Their opponents were just bigger, stronger and fitter.

Go to American, hang around with college students. All the guys are just huge compared to most Europeans. Why? Excellent facilities, diets and weight training from a young age (14/15).

thirtyfoot

Sangre wrote: »

This assumes you believe the media bull**** storm surrounding that tour. Obviously nothing to do with predictable tactics or stale player combinations used. That or the bull**** games they had to play during the summer after a long season.

Since you brought up the rugby example. Last year was the u20s world cup. The best of Irish rugby was picked to play the Cup in Ireland. They got absolutely smashed. All the skill in the world didn't prevent them being hit back in every tackle, being turned and just being battered. Their opponents were just bigger, stronger and fitter.

.

Sorry I brought up the rugby example now but I still believe that rugby these days has become more about size etc than the basic skills.

Sangre wrote: »

And they can't do both? No coach is ever going to not focus on basic skill sets. Doesn't mean he can't also tell them how to fuel their bodies and increase their strength. What is so different between increasing aerobic fitness and increasing muscular strength?

Yes, but 13 year olds, some perspective. I'm from a running background yet I'm not advocating these kids going out doing suffocating interval or aerobic training. There is a word used by Will Heffernan when he says Proximity Bias. Most people hear have promixty bias towards working out in a gym so obviously they aren't going to see a problem with kids aged 13 going to a gym. I don't coach 13 year olds but I do coach 19-23 year olds and I say I spend 10-20% of time now working on techniques and skills these kids should have mastered when they were 12-16. That 10-20% could be used now on strength & conditioning instead.

As regards skills vs conditioning when you maybe have kids to coach 2-3 times a week you may have to prioritise as its the real world and you may not have time to do all. I wonder which is Brian Cody likely to say before a training session in the Village in Kilkenny?

"Jaysus, TJ Reid is flying isn't he, pushing out 100kg on the bench like nobodies business" OR

"Jaysus, TJ Reid is flying, lording over Hickey and knocking points over from all angles on both sides, think I might start him on Sunday"

I wonder:D As I say, we lose track sometime in sport of whats important. Kilkenny are a good example I'd imagine. I'd love to know their conditioning work or who does it as they have the perfect balance. They are the toughest hurlers, the fittest hurlers and more importantly the most skillfull hurlers.

Sangre wrote: »

Go to American, hang around with college students. All the guys are just huge compared to most Europeans. Why? Excellent facilities, diets and weight training from a young age (14/15).

Yes, been in the States, hung around and trained alongside college students. Yes, for football programs they are huge but sport in the US is very different. Most Americans sports careers finish in high school, you don't make a college you don't play sport. You don't go pro after college you don't play sport. Short, more competitive career sqauashed into maybe 8-9 years as opposed to it being a lifestyle sport in the case of many Irish. You have a 13 year old GAA player in Ireland, you would like to think they may be playing the sport for the next 20-25 years.

Just to say I've no problem with kids doing circuit type training, did it myself 25 years ago but its specifically the idea that they may be entering a gym aged 13.

Biff11

Hi,

sorry i haven't been back earlier.

My niece is very much a squad player. (she's sub!) she is not overly talented, She is not in the "a" team and while she really really enjoys it and gives 100% i don't really know what her motives for playing are. Personally i think a lot of it is a social aspect. SHe swims at a much higher level and also plays hockey.

I personally don't think at this age it's a good way of improving her as a player as she may be able to run faster, jump higher but she won't be able to kick a point !!!!

Young women these days also have enough pressures to keep up with the jones's looking at the likes of posh spice. Her diet sheet just has a list of do's and don'ts. They don't explain why? I can already see her making silly judgements on food.

Are these coaches qualified to be giving these diet sheets? Are they qualified to using gyms?

I think you'll find on both counts the answer is no.

Thanks for all your opinions!

Colm_OReilly

It's funny you should mention the RWC, considering the very reason Ireland failed to progress in the U19 RWC in Belfast was because the other teams had dedicated S&C in their teens (which is when they can recover and grow through squats, deads, presses and cleans)

I'd also agree with Roper (been doing that a lot lately, must stop) - kids are rapidly losing "natural" abilities. I have 3/4 year olds doing olympic lifts and gymnastic tumbles as part of their Martial Arts training. Ladder work for agility, handstand/cartwheel practice and tumbling. Ass to Grass Overhead squats and Snatches with PVC pipe. Guess what? The kids that develop these skills also develop faster at MA and also learn quicker.

Now, I also find it funny how people say "bodyweight should be sufficient", when free weights are infinitely more scalable than BW. You can start a kid off on a weight that's 2Kg (I've 2Kg bars) and can add .25Kg each week or thereabouts. With a push up/pull up, I can't. I can use schoolbags/light kettlebells for deadlifts without any problems.

Furthering this - and this is a long assed topic - I'm not saying neglect skills, but people (children and teens included) like winning. Developing a conditioning program in tandem with technique/skill development will further their chances of winning, which will increase enjoyment and also their longevity in the sport. (Playing more games per season and more likely to return).

Now, since I couldn't fit this in to any of the above paragraphs, what if one kid is the son of an accountant, and reads books primarily while not in training. His competitor for centre back is the son of a dairy farmer, and messes about on the farm all day, climbing trees, helping with feed bags, etc. The son of the farmer is getting in exercise while the accountant's son is not.

Roper

Tingle wrote: »

"Jaysus, TJ Reid is flying isn't he, pushing out 100kg on the bench like nobodies business" OR

"Jaysus, TJ Reid is flying, lording over Hickey and knocking points over from all angles on both sides, think I might start him on Sunday"

I wonder:D As I say, we lose track sometime in sport of whats important. Kilkenny are a good example I'd imagine. I'd love to know their conditioning work or who does it as they have the perfect balance. They are the toughest hurlers, the fittest hurlers and more importantly the most skillfull hurlers.

Funny you should mention that. The hurling and football phenoms of Tyrone, Kilkenny, Kerry, Armagh have all been built on superior strength and conditioning programmes from underage upwards. Simply put, strength is a platform to allow skill to flourish. Henry Sheflin isn't a battering ram, but he has strength and balance on one foot, the ability to hold off opponents because of the S&C work he has done from an early age. Cooper from Kerry has added massive mass to himself (even though he still looks small) to enable him to turn faster, hold off bigger men.

I agree with you from a certain point of view. There is a coach of an underage soccer team down the road from me where I walk the dog and I have rarely, if ever, seen him produce a football on a Wednesday evening training session. Instead they run into the sticks, between the sticks. They jump over the hurdle, back over the hurdle, they jog around the pitch, back around the pitch. These kids are 10/11. I'm no football coach but if I was I'd just throw them a ball and tell them to pick teams.

By the by, the IRFU long term athlete development programme is excellent, and doesn't involve weights until 15/16 approx, up until 10/11 it's all general, lots of gymnastic movements and play for fun.

I blogged about my own programme for kids here http://barryoglesby.blogspot.com/2008/11/just-prepping-tonights-classes.html much of it I pilfered from other sporting organisations around the world and of course it's on a far smaller scale (30 or so kids from age 5-15)

thirtyfoot

I've said all I can say on this topic except that when coaching there should always be a sense that what the kids are doing is relevant and prioritised based on their sport. Failing to do that means there will be a disconnect between the conditioning work they are doing and the sport they are playing and whats the point in that after all. Many factors are involved in kids - inclusion of all and not just the winners, fun and social element, competition and winning, creating a healthy balanced lifesyle, building personalities etc etc.

In my example I have two kids in late teens - one an acomplished hurler from a top GAA county and the other an Irish international basketball player. They both have poor skills relevant to the event they do in athletics. They also both had poor all-round strength and conditioning. After 6 months of training this winter their S&C is getting up to speed and they can squat, bench, clean reasonable weights with ok technique. Their event specific skills are still poor and its going to take a lot of time to see if they can get them up to scratch. To me it adds credence to my belief that by the age of 17 or 18 there is still time to get strong but it may be too late to get the basic skills of their sport. Don't know if anyone else here has found the same.

fenris

GAA coaching has changes significantly from the days of "let every blow be a funeral" "never put a foot or a fist where an ash plant will fit instead" inevitably followed by "whatever you do, enjoy yourself"

There is now a formal structure in place to develop coaches in parallel with the players development, setting reasonable expectations and standardising the coaching method and giving real information to coaches rather than the old system of half remembered sayings and battered notebooks.

http://www.dublingaagamesdevelopment.ie/cepcourses/index.php
http://gaelcoach.gaa.ie/coach.html

A new game development system is in place that focuses on basic motor skills, agility, balance, co-ordination for the little ones (4 year olds) followed by skills development in the context of modified games. This leads into a full skills develoment programme and paves the way for elite level performance.

http://gamesdevelopment.gaa.ie/page/fun_do_learning_resource_pack.html

You may find that the diet is basic healthy eating and an awareness of the fact that you need to eat right in order to get the best out of your training.