Anyone PRO-fees?

Sleazus

Being absolutely honest, I think that a no fees system is the most equitable system (not that we managed to make it particularly equitable here - that's another discussion). I say this as a person who earned more than enough money (myself) to pay my way through college, by working long hours and weekends.

What I really don't want to see is a system that's introduced whereby students have to pay because their parents happen to earn more money than others - which seems to be increasingly the way this recession is going (look at Labour - "We don't care if our tax plan doesn't solve the deficit, we're hurting rich people, and that makes us feel good!"). My family will pay more money than people less well-off than us because x% of a bigger figure is more than x% of a smaller figure.

If fees are introduced, I want to see everybody pay, not just those who "can afford it". Besides, (and this is a sentence that should begin "I'm not an economist, but...") I get the sense that means testing it would probably raise very little money for the government, but only allow those interested in social equality to trumpet another victory against the class system.

So, fees for all or fees for none, basically.

Simon.d

I'm pro fees myself in a retrospective sense.. I also believe all 18 year olds should be looked on equally by the state, and that a parents income should have no bearing on their adult offspring's entitlements.. i.e. all students should be entitled to a government sponsored loan to cover both fees and living expenses..

My personal preference to recoup these "loans" is via a graduate tax, whereby students repay once they start earning over an above a specific threshold following graduation.. I also think the same type of system should apply to all other Government run apprenticeship schemes and courses..

Yes people can skip the country an evade repayment, but I'm sure some sort of penalty could be worked into such a system to make such an undertaking undesirable (i.e. criminal record, parent act as garunteur etc)

StinkyMunkey

Sleazus wrote: »

Being absolutely honest, I think that a no fees system is the most equitable system (not that we managed to make it particularly equitable here - that's another discussion). I say this as a person who earned more than enough money (myself) to pay my way through college, by working long hours and weekends.

What I really don't want to see is a system that's introduced whereby students have to pay because their parents happen to earn more money than others - which seems to be increasingly the way this recession is going (look at Labour - "We don't care if our tax plan doesn't solve the deficit, we're hurting rich people, and that makes us feel good!"). My family will pay more money than people less well-off than us because x% of a bigger figure is more than x% of a smaller figure.

If fees are introduced, I want to see everybody pay, not just those who "can afford it". Besides, (and this is a sentence that should begin "I'm not an economist, but...") I get the sense that means testing it would probably raise very little money for the government, but only allow those interested in social equality to trumpet another victory against the class system.

So, fees for all or fees for none, basically.

Its not about penalising the rich for being rich or weathly. Its asking them to make more of a contribution towards fees. Regardless of income, everyone should have to pay some sort of fee. But for me personally, if i had a very high income, i could live with the fact of having to pay more.

Wanting to go to college has nothing to do with what backround you come from ie working, middle & upper. Its about bettering yourself and expanding the possibilities for yourself in life. Im working class and dont feel any envy towards the guy sitting in the 09 merc beside me at the lights. Ive made my choices, and am doing what i do today because of them.

Fad

StinkyMunkey wrote: »

Its not about penalising the rich for being rich or weathly. Its asking them to make more of a contribution towards fees. Regardless of income, everyone should have to pay some sort of fee. But for me personally, if i had a very high income, i could live with the fact of having to pay more.

But theyre already making a higher contribution through taxes, its not like all government funding will be cut off if fees come in, so they will be still helping fund the uni through taxes, as well as fees.

If your paying 42% on whatever proportion of you income, you're hardly going to welcome the "Opportunity" to pay out more of it, just because you were successful in whatever choice you made.

PurpleFistMixer

Fad wrote: »

But theyre already making a higher contribution through taxes, its not like all government funding will be cut off if fees come in, so they will be still helping fund the uni through taxes, as well as fees.

If your paying 42% on whatever proportion of you income, you're hardly going to welcome the "Opportunity" to pay out more of it, just because you were successful in whatever choice you made.

It's important not to equate "this person is rich" with "this person made the right decisions/carried out their decisions correcetly", unless you're of the belief that all good decisions are those that lead to a monetary gain.

shay_562

skregs wrote:

Out of interest, what course do you do?

BESS. When you include lectures, tutorials, study, assignments and more extra-curricular crap than you shake a stick at (some of which is entirely superfluous and self-serving, other parts of which are more altruistic; I reason that if I wasn't doing society stuff, I'd likely put a significantly larger amount of time into study), as well as part-time work on and off during my first 3 years of college to support myself, it adds up to more than the 5-days-a-week 9-5, with significantly more stress at high-pressure times. I know for a fact that I'm not the only one (talk to any of the students here, in Engineering/Science/Medicine courses in particular, about how many hours a week they work). I know some real-world jobs are hard. It's the "lazy students do nothing!" attitude that annoys me.

skregs wrote:

You are obviously don't have a clue what you're talking about, since there's no 'mindset that needs to be changed on a broad societal scale' where I live.

Once again your stunning "Me, ergo everyone" logic fails to impress. There's a significant body of evidence, from the US in particular, to suggest that social background and parental educational attainment are key factors in determining how likely you are to go to college.

StinkyMunkey

Fad wrote: »

But theyre already making a higher contribution through taxes, its not like all government funding will be cut off if fees come in, so they will be still helping fund the uni through taxes, as well as fees.

If your paying 42% on whatever proportion of you income, you're hardly going to welcome the "Opportunity" to pay out more of it, just because you were successful in whatever choice you made.

No one is going to welcome with open arms another drain on their income. Me being one of them. If me personally has to pay full fees for my child to go to college, im prepared to do so...! But if someone less fortunate has to pay less, i dont have a problem with that. Not everyone has been in the position to go to college and better open up their prospects in life.

PurpleFistMixer wrote: »

It's important not to equate "this person is rich" with "this person made the right decisions/carried out their decisions correcetly", unless you're of the belief that all good decisions are those that lead to a monetary gain.

Not every decision you make if life is related to money. But going to college or working from the ground up is always going to have more of an impact on your lifestyle provided you make the right decisions. You could argue that people have made the right decisions and fell flat on their asses. But in terms of people who are better off than others, they have had to make decisions, which have worked in their favour. Some people are born into money, others have worked very hard to get where they are today and others live a comfortable life from day to day. Being well off or rich does not mean you should have to pay for every wrong in society, but helping people less fortunate than them is never going to be a bad thing.

skregs

im not saying "Me, ergo everyone", i'm saying you don't know what you're talking about, you're just adhering to the old "poor people don't go to college" stereotype which obviously isn't true

Fad

skregs wrote: »

im not saying "Me, ergo everyone", i'm saying you don't know what you're talking about, you're just adhering to the old "poor people don't go to college" stereotype which obviously isn't true

Obviously isnt true now, but what if fees are reintroduced?

shay_562

Actually, kinda is true now, and is one of the arguments often cited in favour of fees - the increase in numbers in college after fees were scrapped largely came from the middle and upper classes. Lower socioeconomic classes are still pretty under-represented in third-level education. Again, this isn't me making stuff up or assuming something based on social stereotypes, this is relatively well-established fact that gets cited in newspapers and the like every time there's a debate on fees.

House of Wolves

One of the problems with people suggesting that people can get a part time job to pay for fees and get them through college is that those part time jobs are disappearing pretty fast. I work in a shop Saturday and Sunday and sometimes Friday and my hours are in trouble. I work pretty hard so its not being lazy! No new staff are being hired and people are being let go all the time. Saving up over the summer wont really be option because I wont be making enough. luckily if they are introduced my parents will be able to pay for them. I dont like taking money off my parents though. If they are brought back in I think a tax or a loan system should be set up and everyone pay. Its the fairness way and I think it will mean people will really consider college and pick the right courses and make the right judgement on whether they should really go.....