No Planes Theories on 9/11

PullMyFinger!

Im an avid reader of this forum but I dont think Ive ever seen September Clues been discussed.

This definitely isnt for everyone and its not necessarily my viewpoint, but its all put together so convincingly that if you're into 9/11 conspiracies you'll be into this, even if its just to ridicule it.

The maker is basically saying that no planes hit the buildings on 9/11 and he does a damn good job of trying to prove such an outlandish, even ludicrous, point

For balance there is this video, the last shot of the plane is one Ive never seen before on any 9/11 documentary and it'll give you chills.

Another pro No Planes Theory documentary on 9/11 is 9/11 Octopus, this goes further with the exposing of actors used on the news on the day of the accident.

See below for an example

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Aqq4xWLot0Q

Whichever side of the fence you sit on, if you're into 9/11 stuff Id recommend all 3 documentaries.

Trying running this one by the familes who lost people who were on those planes...

Please tell me you are trolling.

Gordon

I watched two minutes of your embedded video and had to switch it off, repeating what someone says 10 times is just f*cking annoying and not a 'documentary' in the slightest. If this is like the rest of what you've posted then I'm not watching them, I can't sit through the repetition and lack of discourse.

bonkey

Deleted User wrote: »

Please tell me you are trolling.

Careful now...

bonkey

PullMyFinger! wrote: »

Im an avid reader of this forum

I'm an avid reader.

Maybe you'd care to summarise the arguments made in the videos, so I can read about them and decide if there's something there worth my time?

The maker is basically saying that no planes hit the buildings on 9/11 and he does a damn good job of trying to prove such an outlandish, even ludicrous, point

Its more than outlandish and luducrous, to be honest.

seamus

I watched the first two minutes of the video on Google (without sound) and I got the jist of what he was going on about. Basically founding an entire argument on one piece of footage from a bad angle.

The below video shows the actual impact from a better angle, and without any blackouts and basically shows his entire theory to be mind-bogglingly insane.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4q5nE-k0tUQ

espinolman

Yea, maybe the towers are still there and have an invisibility device around them or no , no, its that we are in the matrix so nothing is real .

CantGetNoSleep

bonkey wrote: »

Careful now...

Cop on will ya, it is clear that many people lost their lives on those planes, he is right to give out about him

Mahatma coat

CantGetNoSleep wrote: »

Cop on will ya, it is clear that many people lost their lives on those planes, he is right to give out about him

To reiterate a point

Careful Now....

if you have an issue with the moderation of a post PM the Mod or start a feedback thread, do not, as you have just done, raise it in the thread.

blackgold>>

Deleted User wrote: »

Trying running this one by the familes who lost people who were on those planes...

Please tell me you are trolling.

boards.ie > Hosted > Society > Conspiracy Theories > we discuss Conspiracies.
That video is interesting and it's another theory.

Kernel

PullMyFinger! wrote: »

This definitely isnt for everyone and its not necessarily my viewpoint, but its all put together so convincingly that if you're into 9/11 conspiracies you'll be into this, even if its just to ridicule it.

Well, it's certainly a place to discuss such theories PullMyFinger, however in the realms of conspiracy theories, one must be careful to spot disinfo. One of the things about disinfo is that when it is put out there it has to be convincing on some level. Most authors in the field fall foul of it. David Icke got sucked in by the Reptilian disinfo (as opposed to bloodlines - which appears to have a lot of evidence) to make him sound ridiculous. In the same way, 9/11 has had this and energy weapons to deflect away from the real issues of this false flag operation. Such out there ideas/theories may be put in place as a smokescreen, or to make those 'truthers' seem increasingly odd and unbelievable and reinforce the official story.

javaboy

Gordon wrote: »

I watched two minutes of your embedded video and had to switch it off, repeating what someone says 10 times is just f*cking annoying and not a 'documentary' in the slightest. If this is like the rest of what you've posted then I'm not watching them, I can't sit through the repetition and lack of discourse.

I had to switch it off too. However this video the OP linked to has far more substance and discredits very thoroughly a conspiracy theory video. It's similar in style to that English guy who rips the creationists to shreds so well.

PullMyFinger! wrote: »

For balance there is this video, the last shot of the plane is one Ive never seen before on any 9/11 documentary and it'll give you chills.

Red Sleeping Beauty

Deleted User wrote: »

Trying running this one by the familes who lost people who were on those planes...

In "Loose Change" they had a look into the 4planes that went down on that day and they found discrepencies with passenger lists and the identifying names of the planes.

Diogenes

alan dunne 27 wrote: »

In "Loose Change" they had a look into the 4planes that went down on that day and they found discrepencies with passenger lists and the identifying names of the planes.

No, no they didn't they claimed that non of the hijackers names were on the passenger list. What they neglect to say is the list they are referring to, is a victims list, and that out of respect to the victims on the planes, the names of the people who killed them, are not included among the list of their victims.

It's one of the many factually inaccurate claims in that "documentary".

Red Sleeping Beauty

Very well
It's a while since I saw it but I definately remember them mentioned something about the names of the planes. Each plane has it's own unique name or code and apparently one of the planes that was said to have crashed on that day wasn't in the air or something...

Sorry, I really can't remember the exact details but does this ring any bells with you or anyone? I think they also said that one of the planes has since flown

h8red

seamus wrote: »

I watched the first two minutes of the video on Google (without sound) and I got the jist of what he was going on about. Basically founding an entire argument on one piece of footage from a bad angle.

The below video shows the actual impact from a better angle, and without any blackouts and basically shows his entire theory to be mind-bogglingly insane.

That video sums it up. In the footage in the OPs link the second tower to be hit is hidden behind the already burning first tower. So yeah the plane flies behind the tower you can see.

mrsmallblind

2 things.

1. at 16:30 in the video it cleary shows that the 'amatuer' video has been doctored as the frames at the point of contact are removed yet the police syrens continue uninterupted.

2. a point that is often overlooked from loose change is that the pilot that was running the exercise drill for the pentagon investigating what would happen if a plane was to hit the pentagon is the SAME pilot who was actually flying the plane that day

This and so sooooooooooo many coincidences lead me to 'believe' it has got to be an inside job!!!

Dutch_Druid

Kernel

mrsmallblind wrote: »

This and so sooooooooooo many coincidences lead me to 'believe' it has got to be an inside job!!!

Yes, same with me. Definite inside job. Too many coincidences stretch the realms of credulity beyond reasonable or logical.

Diogenes

Kernel wrote: »

Yes, same with me. Definite inside job. Too many coincidences stretch the realms of credulity beyond reasonable or logical.

I must ask what is the snapping point of creduility on your part.

10 coincidences?

50?

250?

Do you feel that a television pilot made months beforehand counts as a concidence.

Perhaps you could lay out your top twenty five, or fifty concidences, or just lay out exactly the tipping point of concidence for you.

Sofa_King Good

Diogenes wrote: »

I must ask what is the snapping point of creduility on your part.

Perhaps you could lay out your top twenty five, or fifty concidences, or just lay out exactly the tipping point of concidence for you.

Some of the coincidences:


The Bin Laden Family domain expires Sept 11th
http://www.saudi-binladin-group.com/

Israeli shipping co. leaves WTC on Sept 4th
http://www.geesgroup.com/past_zimamerican_article.html

Former Pakistani Diplomat reveals attacks o Bin Laden & Taleban were were planned pre 9/11 -

"Mr Naik was told that if the military action went ahead it would take place before the snows started falling in Afghanistan, by the middle of October at the latest. "

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/south_asia/1550366.stm

One of the alleged hijackers lived outside the gates of the National Security Agency NSA headquarters where 38,000 people worked every day.

In fact, one of the most bizarre ironies of all this is that five of the hijackers lived in a motel right outside the gates of the NSA. "
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/programmes/from_our_own_correspondent/2033791.stm

The curious case of John O'Neill
http://archives.cnn.com/2001/US/09/12/victim.wtc.security/

Falsified Arab response by the media
http://translate.google.com/translate?u=http://www.wtc-trauer.de/mirror/Spiegel_DieMachtderTVBilder.htm&langpair=de|en&hl=en&ie=UTF8

"Dark Winter" excercise Blames Iraqi sponsored terrorist groups in Afghanistan
http://www.terrorisminfo.mipt.org/dark-winter.asp

Rock Band "I am the World Trade Center" release an album in Julyof that year, Track 11 is called "September"
http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/tg/detail/-/B00005LN4Q/ref=m_art_li_2/102-9109842-4065764?v=glance&s=music

Bush's cousin due be in towers at the time of the attack & other coincidences

"President Bush's cousin should have been in the World Trade Centre when it was attacked. Jim Pierce, managing director of AON Corporations, had arranged a business conference on the 105th floor of the South Tower where its New York offices were based. But his group was too large so they decided to move across the street to the Millennium Hotel."

URL="http://web.archive.org/web/20040411172330/http:/www.ananova.com/news/story/sm_401406.html"]Annova[/URL
http://whatreallyhappened.com/WRHARTICLES/911security.html?q=911security.html

These were just some of the more obscure ones that I came across, rather than regurgitate the building 7 collapse, Silverstein making 7 billion on insurance after insuring the towers 6 weeks before hand, ´the war games, Odigo Instant messaging staff etc.

But here alone you've got to admit that are huge amount of coincedences.

Red Sleeping Beauty

There's also the WTC 7 building ....

Sofa_King Good

alan dunne 27 wrote: »

There's also the WTC 7 building ....

Not any more;)

mysterious

You know what get's on my tits.

People in general. Especially the ones that seem to think they know it all. LIke the ones that look down at people who do their research and do all the work, The one's that never dicern reality. Never question's the agenda of other's. Like never ask the what if's. These type of people put the ones that look for the facts down. This is the reason, why we are nowhere in the 9/11 closure. People just don't want to believe that there is evidence to show it was pre ordained pre planned, and just somwhere there is a might that the government did infact plan this all along.

They needed a war. Sept 11 was the excuse. This is fact. But people still come on here saying this is daft, the government would never do such a thing. Really? blame the muslims for everything is ok though.

For example I do this, when it comes to conspiracies.
1. ask question's
2. Observe with their own sense's
3. Look around their environment.
4. look at the affect the situation has caused.
5. find out what the agenda and reasoning of the situation.
6. I look at the past, present and future scenerio.
7.put the pieces together i.e Logic.
8. putting some intution into the concusion. Give discernment.

These are all very important in finding out certain topics. The ones that don't look for the information, are the ones that sit and laugh at the conspiracy. Simple because they don't know anything about it. !

The people that really and I mean really get on my tits.
Are the nosayers and the yesayers and the ones that get their info from the T.V. Sit down eat crap, have a beer and listen to the yobs on t.v telling you the reality about 9/11. I'm going to call this person Type A. So you know what I'm getting at.

Type A comes on this thread and says, idiotic judgments, spew hatred to conspiracy or anyone who has an opened mind to the 9/11 atrocity. Why cus the T.V said uh uh, Osama did it. bla bla bla.. I'm so really tired of this crap. Just because the people on the T.V say it was the hijackers doesn't mean it's true. It's FACT that the media and the powers of be lie to further their own agenda's. People should take note of this when, watching 9/11 related information especially when it's in relation to T.V, media and the governments.

The FACT is. We don't know that it was done by hijackers, Osama, muslims, Saudi Arabains or whatever. The same way the Type A people pull the argument the government were not behind it.

I know who did it. Logic proved it to me years ago.

mysterious

Sofa_King Good wrote: »

Some of the coincidences:


The Bin Laden Family domain expires Sept 11th
http://www.saudi-binladin-group.com/

Israeli shipping co. leaves WTC on Sept 4th
http://www.geesgroup.com/past_zimamerican_article.html

Former Pakistani Diplomat reveals attacks o Bin Laden & Taleban were were planned pre 9/11 -

"Mr Naik was told that if the military action went ahead it would take place before the snows started falling in Afghanistan, by the middle of October at the latest. "

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/south_asia/1550366.stm

One of the alleged hijackers lived outside the gates of the National Security Agency NSA headquarters where 38,000 people worked every day.

In fact, one of the most bizarre ironies of all this is that five of the hijackers lived in a motel right outside the gates of the NSA. "
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/programmes/from_our_own_correspondent/2033791.stm

The curious case of John O'Neill
http://archives.cnn.com/2001/US/09/12/victim.wtc.security/

Falsified Arab response by the media
http://translate.google.com/translate?u=http://www.wtc-trauer.de/mirror/Spiegel_DieMachtderTVBilder.htm&langpair=de|en&hl=en&ie=UTF8

"Dark Winter" excercise Blames Iraqi sponsored terrorist groups in Afghanistan
http://www.terrorisminfo.mipt.org/dark-winter.asp

Rock Band "I am the World Trade Center" release an album in Julyof that year, Track 11 is called "September"
http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/tg/detail/-/B00005LN4Q/ref=m_art_li_2/102-9109842-4065764?v=glance&s=music

Bush's cousin due be in towers at the time of the attack & other coincidences

"President Bush's cousin should have been in the World Trade Centre when it was attacked. Jim Pierce, managing director of AON Corporations, had arranged a business conference on the 105th floor of the South Tower where its New York offices were based. But his group was too large so they decided to move across the street to the Millennium Hotel."

URL="http://web.archive.org/web/20040411172330/http:/www.ananova.com/news/story/sm_401406.html"]Annova[/URL
http://whatreallyhappened.com/WRHARTICLES/911security.html?q=911security.html

These were just some of the more obscure ones that I came across, rather than regurgitate the building 7 collapse, Silverstein making 7 billion on insurance after insuring the towers 6 weeks before hand, ´the war games, Odigo Instant messaging staff etc.

But here alone you've got to admit that are huge amount of coincedences.

I like that post, Sofa you forgot one really big conicidence

George Bush had to be flimed in a classroom precisely the moment the towers were hit. Like he was lost. And they just had to read this poem. And they just had to had CIA men coming in whispering in his ear. Like sure they don't know anything. BAM they just suddenly found out the towers were hit.

But they were all filmed during this, make's you wonder how much of a laugh it is, and how the sheeple are fooled.

Pre ordained just entered my head again.

bonkey

mysterious wrote: »

You know what get's on my tits.

People in general. Especially the ones that seem to think they know it all. LIke the ones that look down at people who do their research and do all the work,

Yeah...me too.

There's these guys in the US, right? They did masses of research to try and figure out exactly how the three WTC buildings collapsed. They invested serious time, effort and money into it.

And you know what happens? They get dismissed out of hand by many people.

It must be infuriating for them.

People just don't want to believe that there is evidence to show it was pre ordained pre planned,

In fairness, I don't think anyone questions that the attacks of 911 were pre-planned. I haven't met one person who believes those planes crashed into those buildings by accident or coincidence.

They needed a war. Sept 11 was the excuse. This is fact. But people still come on here saying this is daft, the government would never do such a thing.

Thats a logical non-sequitor. Lets agree that they needed a war. Lets agree that Sep 11 was the excuse.

Where does that get us? WE haven't established that they needed the war then. Why not 6 months earlier? Why not 6 months later?

We also haven't established that using something as an excuse doesn't mean you're responsible for it. There's a whole chunk of people in London this week who used 6" of snow as an excuse to stay at home instead of going to work. I'm sure we agree that this is no way suggests that they made it snow. Given the size of London, there are almost certainly some people who didn't want to go to work that day, or who were going to pull a sickie anyway....so the snow suited them perfectly. It still doesn't make them responsible.

Opportunism is a fantastically powerful ability to have. If you have a large-enough set of objectives, and are in a position of enough power, there is little in this world that you can't try and take advantage of. It doesn't mean that you are responsible for creating those events.

blame the muslims for everything is ok though.

Blaming "the muslims" would be an atrociously bigoted act.
Blaming a small group of extremist muslim terrorists, based on a number of factors...yeah...that is ok in my book.

Red Sleeping Beauty

Don't blame the Muslims, blame the Stupid Fat White Men

bonkey

Sofa_King Good wrote: »

But here alone you've got to admit that are huge amount of coincedences.

Some of them are interesting, yes.

Some aren't really coincidences from what I can see....just "unusual items" related (or perhaps related) to the case. In some cases, they're not even so unusual (like the Dark Winter example).

Let me ask you a couple of questions though...and to anyone else who subscribes to the "too many coincidences" theory. Its almost the reverse of the line Diogenes took...

How many of these coincidences do you believe are not coincidences. How many do you believe must have some hidden explanation. Can you tell which ones those are? Do they all have to have a common explanation?

For example...lets assume that the one suggesting Israeli foreknowledge was just a coincidence, and the Pakistani one wasn't (or vice versa). This could be explained by the US government being behind it all, and telling (or being found out by) some foreign nations. It could equally be explained by the Taliban being behind it all, and their plans being found out by some foreign nations. So even without attributing it to coincidence, we don't need some grand conspiracy to explain it, nor does it need to be connected to other coincidences (or non-coincidences).

Take "Dark Winter". We know the US Administration had a grudge against Iraq and accused them of sponsoring terrorism for years. We know there were previous attacks - successful and not-so-successful - apparently carried out by Afghan-based terrorists. So is it really that coincidental that a strategic exercise looking at a terrorist attack on US soil would look at the then-prime-candidates for carrying out such an attack? Again, we seem to have at least two options...the US created the whole Afghan-based terrorist idea, faked the previous attacks, faked Dark Winter, and so on and so forth...or that they really exist, had carried out previous attacks, and were the most likely candidate for carrying out an attack on US soil.

If had to do up a scenario for some such thing during the latter half of the Bush Administration, who would I pick to attack the US? Probably the same guys again, only perhaps Iranian sponsored. And you know what..I'd push the whole "Iranian sponsored" line, true or not, so that if and when such an attack occurred, it would benefit the Bush agenda against Iran. Hell, I'd expect to be told to do that. Its opportunism at its best...using every opportunity to strengthen an agenda which may or may not come to pass.

Out of the Loop, Track 11...thats pretty mad, isn't it. I'm struggling to see how a rock-band fits into some over-arching conspiracy, though. Surely we agree that sometimes a coincidence is just a coincidence? (Incidentally, September 11 was a notable date before 2001).

I'm not trying to answer each and every point here. I'm just trying to show that producing a list of things that strike one as unusual is, in and of itself, not really indicative of anything.

As one, last, tangential point...which some of you may have seen from me before.

Take a deck of cards, face down, suffle it and draw the first card. Place it face up. The odds of you drawing exactly that card were 1-in-52. Draw the next card. The odds of that were 1-in-51. The odds of the two cards being drawn in that order were 1-in-2652. Go through the whole deck like this, laying hte cards face up. The odds of you drawing exactly the sequence you did were almost 1 in 10^68. Pretty impressive, huh?

Now look through that. You'll almost-certainly see occasions where adjacent cards are in sequence...or where they've the same picture value. More coincidences! Surely that makes the odds even higher!

So you stacked the deck, right? When I told you to shuffle it, you actually stacked it to produce this series, with all these coincidences? Its the only explanation, isn't it. How else could you be beating odds that are so high?

Now, of course, we can look at that and say its all just mathematical obfuscation...that the odds don't meaningfully exist when we look at events after they've happened. Its only when we're predicting things that such odds would be relevant.

I'd agree.

I'd say with almost-certainty that no-one can pick the band, album, track number and song title that can be linked with the next terrorist attack. After the attack, I'd be surprised if someone couldn't find one somewhere.

I'd say with almost-certainty that no-one can look at the movements of every international Israeli operation, and predict in advance which one of those movements is indicative of a terrorist attack to come. I'm pretty sure, though, that there will be a future terrorist attack (perhaps not the next), after which some sort of correlation can be found.

I'd say with almost-certainty that no-one can look at all of the various "disaster planning" games that go on around the world and tell me in advance which one of those will be linked to a terrorist attack before it happens. After a terrorist attack happens, I'm almost certain that correlations can be and will be drawn.

One often hears the witticism that analysts have successfully predicted 11 of the last 3 recessions. The same is also true where we do see the occasional "prediction" with regards to conspiracy theories which is spookily accurate. Take it in context...there are myriads of predictions made by various people all the time. we've seen and will continue to see any number of them on this forum. Often they're somewhat vague on specifics...I think we're expecting some unspecified international crisis to "test" the Obama government in its first 6 months (given that we missed Jan 22), for example. If something happens that finally matches one of these predictions...what does that tell us? Can we really determine the difference between a lucky guess and actual, well-grounded suspicions in a field rife with wild and inaccurate guesses?

It'll happen and mark my words...when it does, we'll be asked to believe after the fact that it can't be coincidence.

Sofa_King Good

bonkey wrote: »

How many of these coincidences do you believe are not coincidences. How many do you believe must have some hidden explanation. Can you tell which ones those are? Do they all have to have a common explanation?

Possibly. Coincidences alone by definition mean nothing. It is when put together that they carry some value. It is like if you were given a huge jigsaw puzzle for every theory with only one complete set of pieces, the rest about 15% complete. If all the pieces were then jumbled together and you then tried to complete the puzzle.

It may come about that you focus on just one puzzle, that puzzle may be the complete one and eventually it will come to pass and it will be completed.

Likewise, you may focus on an incomplete puzzle. Some of the pieces may fit but ultimately it can never be completed despite infinite effort.

The most thorough and time consuming way is to complete all pieces to finality so you then have the result you seek as well as seeing the other full pictures.

Where coincidence comes in is that some of these pieces may unawarily to you to fit together through nothing other than luck and the result is a distorted image

bonkey wrote: »

For example...lets assume that the one suggesting Israeli foreknowledge was just a coincidence, and the Pakistani one wasn't (or vice versa). This could be explained by the US government being behind it all, and telling (or being found out by) some foreign nations.

This is all that I am trying to say - Luck?, misfortune?, coincidence? people finding patterns were none exist? or something more?

bonkey wrote: »

It could equally be explained by the Taliban being behind it all, and their plans being found out by some foreign nations. So even without attributing it to coincidence, we don't need some grand conspiracy to explain it, nor does it need to be connected to other coincidences (or non-coincidences).

I would view this scenario as a conspiracy in itself if the information was not shared.

bonkey wrote: »

Take "Dark Winter". We know the US Administration had a grudge against Iraq and accused them of sponsoring terrorism for years. We know there were previous attacks - successful and not-so-successful - apparently carried out by Afghan-based terrorists. So is it really that coincidental that a strategic exercise looking at a terrorist attack on US soil would look at the then-prime-candidates for carrying out such an attack?

bonkey wrote: »

we seem to have at least two options...the US created the whole Afghan-based terrorist idea, faked the previous attacks, faked Dark Winter, and so on and so forth...or that they really exist, had carried out previous attacks, and were the most likely candidate for carrying out an attack on US soil.

But that is the point I was trying to make, that there is at least two options. An infinite number of coincidences prove exactly zero. Abundant permutations restricted only by the laws of science render most theories possible, if unlikely. Coincidence alone suggests nothing, other than to question if related events are coincedental at all. I would even suggest that if there were evidence to counter the existence of something that would increase the likelyhood of it actually being.

bonkey wrote: »

If had to do up a scenario for some such thing during the latter half of the Bush Administration, who would I pick to attack the US? Probably the same guys again, only perhaps Iranian sponsored. And you know what..I'd push the whole "Iranian sponsored" line, true or not, so that if and when such an attack occurred, it would benefit the Bush agenda against Iran. Hell, I'd expect to be told to do that. Its opportunism at its best...using every opportunity to strengthen an agenda which may or may not come to pass.

Agreed. But that doesnät really back up the assertion that there was not complicityly.

bonkey wrote: »

Out of the Loop, Track 11...thats pretty mad, isn't it. I'm struggling to see how a rock-band fits into some over-arching conspiracy, though. Surely we agree that sometimes a coincidence is just a coincidence? (Incidentally, September 11 was a notable date before 2001).

Another date that comes up recently is April 19th - Waco, Ruby Ridge, Oaklahoma bombing. Numerology seems to have some significance to the "someone", but again look hard enough rather than seek and you shall find. The band thing is bizarre, but has to be put up against at a guess I'd say 100s of thousands other albums released pre 9/11 that had no connection. Its a crazy coincidence winning the lotto but it happens almost every week.

bonkey wrote: »

I'm not trying to answer each and every point here. I'm just trying to show that producing a list of things that strike one as unusual is, in and of itself, not really indicative of anything.

But without a conclusive result or outcome to link them to then they can only remain as coincidences. Only the ultimate truth can elevate them to anything other coincidence, which they may or may not be

bonkey wrote: »

As one, last, tangential point...which some of you may have seen from me before.

Take a deck of cards, face down, suffle it and draw the first card. Place it face up. The odds of you drawing exactly that card were 1-in-52. Draw the next card. The odds of that were 1-in-51. The odds of the two cards being drawn in that order were 1-in-2652. Go through the whole deck like this, laying hte cards face up. The odds of you drawing exactly the sequence you did were almost 1 in 10^68. Pretty impressive, huh?

Now look through that. You'll almost-certainly see occasions where adjacent cards are in sequence...or where they've the same picture value. More coincidences! Surely that makes the odds even higher!

So you stacked the deck, right? When I told you to shuffle it, you actually stacked it to produce this series, with all these coincidences? Its the only explanation, isn't it. How else could you be beating odds that are so high?

Now, of course, we can look at that and say its all just mathematical obfuscation...that the odds don't meaningfully exist when we look at events after they've happened. Its only when we're predicting things that such odds would be relevant.

I'd agree.

I'd say with almost-certainty that no-one can pick the band, album, track number and song title that can be linked with the next terrorist attack. After the attack, I'd be surprised if someone couldn't find one somewhere.

I'd say with almost-certainty that no-one can look at the movements of every international Israeli operation, and predict in advance which one of those movements is indicative of a terrorist attack to come. I'm pretty sure, though, that there will be a future terrorist attack (perhaps not the next), after which some sort of correlation can be found.

I'd say with almost-certainty that no-one can look at all of the various "disaster planning" games that go on around the world and tell me in advance which one of those will be linked to a terrorist attack before it happens. After a terrorist attack happens, I'm almost certain that correlations can be and will be drawn.

One often hears the witticism that analysts have successfully predicted 11 of the last 3 recessions. The same is also true where we do see the occasional "prediction" with regards to conspiracy theories which is spookily accurate. Take it in context...there are myriads of predictions made by various people all the time. we've seen and will continue to see any number of them on this forum. Often they're somewhat vague on specifics...I think we're expecting some unspecified international crisis to "test" the Obama government in its first 6 months (given that we missed Jan 22), for example. If something happens that finally matches one of these predictions...what does that tell us? Can we really determine the difference between a lucky guess and actual, well-grounded suspicions in a field rife with wild and inaccurate guesses?

It'll happen and mark my words...when it does, we'll be asked to believe after the fact that it can't be coincidence.

I agree with everything you say. I'm not trying to say that it can't be a coincidence. There are countless reasons for either argument. There are more questions than answers but there are more than coincidences, there is motive and capability anda history of false flag op's and state sponsored terrorism. Equally there are legitimate terrorist attacks for terrorist ideals.

Sofa_King Good

mysterious wrote: »

And they just had to had CIA men coming in whispering in his ear..

Most incriminating point of that episode was that the CIA guy didn't wait for a response before he left Bush.

Red Sleeping Beauty

The Lone Gunmen pilot episode featured a storyline where a plane was flowin/crashed into the World Trade Center building.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Lone_Gunmen_(TV_series)#9.2F11_Parallel

Foreshadowing a number of conspiracy theories in the wake of the September 11, 2001 attacks, the plot of the March 4, 2001 pilot episode of the series depicts a secret U.S. government agency plotting to hijack a domestic commercial Boeing 727 originally heading for Boston from New York City but diverted it to crash into the World Trade Center via remote control for the purpose of increasing the military defense budget and blaming the attack on foreign "tin-pot dictators" who are "begging to be smart-bombed."

I think it's the greatest irony that it was this show it happened to because it's premise , it's title is based on a conspiracy theory (of the lone gunman JFK shooting) and was also developed/created by Christ Carter who of course created the X-Files which dealt with just about every main USA conspiracy
I don't believe it to be anything other than a conspiracy to be honest.

Kernel

I'm a big fan of Killtown's research. Unfortunately, as far as I know, he's been involved in one too many flame wars online and has stepped back a little. But his work is well done. Have a read:

http://killtown.911review.org/oddities.html

To answer questions regarding coincidences... sure I believe in coincidence, one or two.. after all these 'coincidences' my bull**** detector explodes.

Diogenes

Kernel wrote: »

I'm a big fan of Killtown's research. Unfortunately, as far as I know, he's been involved in one too many flame wars online and has stepped back a little. But his work is well done. Have a read:

http://killtown.911review.org/oddities.html

To answer questions regarding coincidences... sure I believe in coincidence, one or two.. after all these 'coincidences' my bull**** detector explodes.

What is the operating margin for your BS detector? 4 coincidences? 12? 250?

Sofa_King Good

Kernel wrote: »

I'm a big fan of Killtown's research. Unfortunately, as far as I know, he's been involved in one too many flame wars online and has stepped back a little. But his work is well done. Have a read:

http://killtown.911review.org/oddities.html

Yeah, thats actually where I took a lot of the info from on the last page

Kernel

Diogenes wrote: »

What is the operating margin for your BS detector? 4 coincidences? 12? 250?

Difficult to quantify, naturally. Depends on the quality and nature of the coincidences, along with the overview.

bonkey

Sofa_King Good wrote: »

It may come about that you focus on just one puzzle, that puzzle may be the complete one and eventually it will come to pass and it will be completed.

Likewise, you may focus on an incomplete puzzle. Some of the pieces may fit but ultimately it can never be completed despite infinite effort.

This is all that I am trying to say - Luck?, misfortune?, coincidence? people finding patterns were none exist? or something more?

Excellent question.

I would answer it as follows...

The first three are all effectively the same, and can be summarised in one - there is no relevant pattern.

This idea - that there is no pattern - should be our accepted conclusion, until such times as we can establish otherwise, which we would do by trying to identify the "something more" - by looking for the "something more" of the last.

Agreed. But that doesnät really back up the assertion that there was not complicityly.

Does it need to back up that assertion?

The "there is none" position should be the default, until someone can show otherwise, I would have thought.

meglome

It seems to me that most of the events of 9/11 fit the established/official facts. So why is it more weight is given by some people to the minority of coincidences. Maybe that's a question that the CT's should ask themselves.

mysterious

bonkey wrote: »

Yeah...me too.

There's these guys in the US, right? They did masses of research to try and figure out exactly how the three WTC buildings collapsed. They invested serious time, effort and money into it.

And you know what happens? They get dismissed out of hand by many people.

It must be infuriating for them.

LMFAO.....
Do you know how much money the Bush administration actually spent on the investigation? Please do your research:rolleyes:
Second point. The investigation didnt actually give the answers to who was behind it. How WT7 building miracously dissapeared.

It seem's that most private investigations, and other sources such as 9/11 farehenheit, Ripple effect, The firefighters, and some top buiding experts seem to say the Government official investigation as a load of poo. !

7 years later, pfft, my god your post is frightening. Ouch my head hurts.

In fairness, I don't think anyone questions that the attacks of 911 were pre-planned. I haven't met one person who believes those planes crashed into those buildings by accident or coincidence.

According to your facts, the "serious" investigation made by the US government should of explain all that and further.

It didn't !

Thats a logical non-sequitor. Lets agree that they needed a war. Lets agree that Sep 11 was the excuse.

Where does that get us? WE haven't established that they needed the war then. Why not 6 months earlier? Why not 6 months later?

Like most people you forget the obvious. They need enough time and preparation to control the masses and rev the fear into them. For one purpose. To win support for the Neo con war on oil and securing petro dollars. Which Saddam threatned. That was the goal of the Bush Admin, not WMDs. They knew they were know WMDs. The US knew every single weapon they had, as almost everything weaponwise Saddam had was American arms. It was so obvious as the months went on they started using the word Osama bin laden (CIA muppet) to then oh just the Terrorists - to the "war on terror" - to "Iraq terrorist's" - to oh what a surprise Saddam and up to at least a few months before the Bush Administration declared war on Iraq it was Saddam Saddam every night till they sat foot in Iraq.

If you were paying attention. When 9/11 happened, it was Osama Osama, (bear in mind no facts to prove he did it ) All of a sudden it turned to Iraq?

Where is the logic to this? You seem to give so much faith into the Government investigations of 9/11 LMFAO. Funny stuff I tell ya.

We also haven't established that using something as an excuse doesn't mean you're responsible for it.

But ah my friend, it shows deception and thats a very important point to this whole conspiracy.

Opportunism is a fantastically powerful ability to have. If you have a large-enough set of objectives, and are in a position of enough power, there is little in this world that you can't try and take advantage of. It doesn't mean that you are responsible for creating those events.

I agree, but it sounds like your making justifications already though.

Blaming "the muslims" would be an atrociously bigoted act.
Blaming a small group of extremist muslim terrorists, based on a number of factors...yeah...that is ok in my book.

I knowI keep telling people like this, especially Ameircans

You should actually listen to to how screwed up the American media is when it comes to bigoted acts as you've clearly described. I've witnessed simple american's say such things'

Again all the garbage coming from the media and the government's. Wait didnt they spend so much money investigating this 9/11 atrocity.

They secured billions of dollars on the oil markets and kept the dollar as the main exchange of oil in the world by keeping Opec using the dollar. If it meant 2 or 3 9/11s they would do that to keep America on top of the financial plot;)

mysterious

meglome wrote: »

It seems to me that most of the events of 9/11 fit the established/official facts. So why is it more weight is given by some people to the minority of coincidences. Maybe that's a question that the CT's should ask themselves.

What established facts. You mean the official facts in what term.

When it's official, does it mean it's affirmed and signed as fact by whom, the US government.

Give me a break.
One question. Who are the 16 hijackers. this is meant to be a fact. We have no history on them. No actual hard end proof. Just documentation of these 16 hijacker's. Rights its fact, cus it's down on paper. It's so sickingly retarded.

Have you ever been to New York. I have......
For actual cop on, you would realise it's the greatest con job since my birth anyhow.
New York is one of the most secured, technology advanced cities in the world. It has the most tightest security airports in the world. JFK been well noted. It has tall building's and three Airports on each side of Manhatten. Planes hence fly low over the city. This city again has the highest state of the art tranport air control systems in the world. CIA monitors everything that walks through the gates of any airport in America, since way back in the 50s.

I tell you a fact. Back in 84 when my mother was in America. She was questioned for 2 hours. She was told the CIA knew your last **** and your last dinner before you arrive through an Ameican airport.

I just cannot understand the logic, in people anymore. Sure if the governmetn said it's fact. It's official. You honestly mean to tell me or anyone who has an a reality check to this bull****. That 16 hijackers walked into America and got two planes and threw them into the twin towers just like that.

:rolleyes: Official facts, I dont see any? I mean we saw penciled drawn pictures. of these guys. I could draw a picture now if you want, and put hasseeb allah at the end of it. I could then say to the sheeple. LOOK HERE i have a fact.

Diogenes

mysterious wrote:

Give me a break.
One question. Who are the 16 hijackers. this is meant to be a fact. We have no history on them. No actual hard end proof. Just documentation of these 16 hijacker's. Rights its fact, cus it's down on paper. It's so sickingly retarded.

Well for starts there were 19 hijackers, sorry if you're going to get basic facts wrong I need to point it out.

Have you ever been to New York. I have......
For actual cop on, you would realise it's the greatest con job since my birth anyhow.
New York is one of the most secured, technology advanced cities in the world. It has the most tightest security airports in the world. JFK been well noted. It has tall building's and three Airports on each side of Manhatten. Planes hence fly low over the city. This city again has the highest state of the art tranport air control systems in the world. CIA monitors everything that walks through the gates of any airport in America, since way back in the 50s.

And your point is caller? None of the flights took off from New York. What are you suggesting here, that New York should have had some kind of anti aircraft defense over NY, to what end?

I tell you a fact. Back in 84 when my mother was in America. She was questioned for 2 hours. She was told the CIA knew your last **** and your last dinner before you arrive through an Ameican airport.

That doesn't make sense, non of the hijackers were in the US for a matter of hours, hundreds of thousands of people are on US watch lists, there were security failures in the run up to Sept 11th. There were secuirty failures that led to Omagh. Failures do not automatically implictly mean guilt. If you fail to break in time, does it mean you meant to crash your car into the vechile ahead?

I just cannot understand the logic, in people anymore. Sure if the governmetn said it's fact. It's official. You honestly mean to tell me or anyone who has an a reality check to this bull****. That 16 hijackers walked into America and got two planes and threw them into the twin towers just like that.

No 19 hijackers did not crashed two planes into the WTC, another plane crash into the pentagon, a further plane was brought down by the passengers. You've made, several, massive factual errors in your post, perhaps you might consider revaluating your position?

:rolleyes: Official facts, I dont see any? I mean we saw penciled drawn pictures. of these guys. I could draw a picture now if you want, and put hasseeb allah at the end of it. I could then say to the sheeple. LOOK HERE i have a fact.

I mean the CCTV, the Al Qaeda released confessionals, the videos from Atta's parents, I mean, er, Jesus, you don't seem to have a wit of support for yout ignorant and ill thought out claims.

Diogenes

mysterious wrote: »

LMFAO.....
Do you know how much money the Bush administration actually spent on the investigation? Please do your research:rolleyes:
Second point. The investigation didnt actually give the answers to who was behind it. How WT7 building miracously dissapeared.

No it didn't the NIST WTC7 investigation, the longest and most extensive building collapse investigation in the history of the world is ignored by you

It seem's that most private investigations, and other sources such as 9/11 farehenheit, Ripple effect, The firefighters, and some top buiding experts seem to say the Government official investigation as a load of poo. !

Leaving aside the first two pieces of "documentary evidence" perhaps you could reference the firefighers and top building experts, who support your claims.

7 years later, pfft, my god your post is frightening. Ouch my head hurts.

Yeah 7 plus years for conspiracy theorists to come up with an adequate alternative theory for the WTC and they haven't. Is your head hurting due to the cognitive dissonance?

According to your facts, the "serious" investigation made by the US government should of explain all that and further.

The Lead "investigator" of the 911 truth movement, David Ray Griffin, writer of a half dozen books on the 911 truth movement refuses to have a theory.

If you are accusing someone of a crime the onus is upon you to provide method and motivation. You can't do that.



Yes yes, Iraq and Osame, 2006 called, they want their bullcrap back.

rccaulfield

This thread is the lowest of the low.

mysterious

Diogenes wrote: »

No it didn't the NIST WTC7 investigation, the longest and most extensive building collapse investigation in the history of the world is ignored by you

Who are they government backed. Did they get the steel out before the actual investigation?? It's funny that the steel was all removed prior to investigation.

And what kind of answers did they come up with. I will open my mind, if I see non bull****.

Leaving aside the first two pieces of "documentary evidence" perhaps you could reference the firefighers and top building experts, who support your claims.

Youtube firefighters.
Google New york survivors and hearin of bombs in the Twin towers.
Also go on Rosie O Donnell's blog. She lives in New York and has been a big activist in finding out the truth of 9/11. She has a video of a survivor who worked on the building. He gives his details and name out there etc etc.
Look at ripple effect too.
Judging from your post's you listen to government nonsense do you? like government back information :pac:. I'm really curious.

Yeah 7 plus years for conspiracy theorists to come up with an adequate alternative theory for the WTC and they haven't. Is your head hurting due to the cognitive dissonance?

No you mean the government haven't given the fact who did it. ! Watch the space;) Government love the conspiracy, so we all get cot up and never accuse the ones spewing this ****. I.e the US government.

If you are accusing someone of a crime the onus is upon you to provide method and motivation. You can't do that.

I accuse the American government of creating the biggest con job in the history of the formation of the constitution.

G.W.B sat in a classroom, knowingly what was to happen. If you have good perceptual powers. You will see the scheme of their actions and behaviour leading very much to that of an acting scene.

Yes yes, Iraq and Osame, 2006 called, they want their bullcrap back.

Speak english please.

Sofa_King Good

Just a thought...But having observed here for a while it is obvious it attracts two very distinct personality types a) take your pick from curious/open-minded/gullible/paranoid and b) logical/scientific/calculated/condescending
to the point were each posters contributions are easily predicted.

It occurs to me that perhaps this whole conpiracy theory community is a fabrication to polarise people from each other. Divide and conquer and all that, create camps and push socially minded people into wild goose chases to prevent their energies and good will to be harnessed effectively by distracting them from the real issues.

In light of the financial mess we're in, and I would say this is just the start and IF it was engineered then social unrest, race friction, especially in our country i'd say (don't want to sound like the Dwarf in In Bruges here) and rise in extremism cross the board it would be preferable if the people are a disjointed rabble because they would be too busy fighting each other to organise...Just a random thought

mysterious

That's why I get so annoyed with people.

People cannot dicern reality anymore. People swing to either far logic or far fantasy.

I.e Combine logic and Intution together to make your conclusion's. This is the way to be. I like your post Sofa king I'm very much a believer in that idea.

The powers of be only want us to use the left brain and only a small percentage of it. The survival, do, primal, logic modes. Society and educatoin gears to that. The government want left handed people, artistic people who have intution to be laughed at. Hence why society degrade them.

So it is about divide and conquer in another form.
I come to most of my conclusions through dicernment. Something the powers of be fear. They do not want people to do this.

In 9/11 aspect. This is what happens. people are divided straight down the middle. The government want the masses to fight over who did it.

But those who use awareness and dicernment will actually realise stand back and look directly at the game player. In this case. the US government

Nick_oliveri

mysterious wrote: »

The government want left handed people, artistic people who have intution to be laughed at. Hence why society degrade them.

No, that was/is ignorance.

There are a lot of coincidences, but no hard evidence to be pointing fingers.
Please dont point fingers, do your research and gather the facts until you pick up that elusive smoking gun, who knows, next week you could say Al Queda.

All this finger pointing without proof bores me...NWO, Bush did it etc...
What have you got that is new?

Dont get me wrong I see coincidence and mysteries too, but theres a line a good researcher doesnt cross, and its a faith or opinion based line, and thats where the ridicule starts.

All loose ends seem to be tied up pretty tight, if theres a chance it was a conspiracy, it was executed brilliantly.

G.W.B sat in a classroom, knowingly what was to happen. If you have good perceptual powers. You will see the scheme of their actions and behaviour leading very much to that of an acting scene.

Thats not enough to point fingers. You need more than that and your other links, 9/11 conspiracies arent new, people are either one side of the fence or the other, each side "preventing ignorance" and "spreading truth". Bull****. You need something powerfull, ball gripping, goosebump inducing.....OMG!!1

And by the way, anyone with good "perceptual powers" could say anyone in any situation was acting. It just depends on the motive and opinion of the person doing the perceiving.

mysterious

Nick_oliveri wrote: »

No, that was/is ignorance.

There are a lot of coincidences, but no hard evidence to be pointing fingers.

Well the media and the government point the fingers all the time. I.e the box in front of you. They need you to pay attention. So they point the finger, you believe?!

So what's the difference in me pointing the finger at the obvious. I don't get distracted to the crap whatsoever. I see straight true the agenda's of politic's. Though on a side note it's hard to prove how I see thing's in black or white in print here or paper. But many people in everyday life are really impressed with my view on the situation with 9/11. I'm getting there though, with my constructive theories. This is general discussion. I have exstensive research on this. One of me won't change anything. It's going to take all of the masses, to get the truth out. I know the impact I've had already with many people. People become clear headed when I've given my opinion. I see so many people cot up in the agenda of the US/WEST agenda. They get their facts from the T.V. They forget to dicern their own views, opnions and thoughts on the present tense. Nobody ever question's anymore. It's precisely why this 9/11 job was so successful. The government know full well nobody would ever question them, so they are confident enough to get away with it. They are full well glad that we are here wasting time bickering amongst each other who did it, and forgetting the obvious.

I mean I know full well the logic and the intution that I have on this matter. But I can't and will not change a closed mind on the reality. The reality IS NOT T.V. I can't stand the reality where you put ur faith, talent's and belief into leader's. The ones who lie and do genocide. The Bush administration have been very deceptive throughout the whole 8 years. So you won't stop me pointing any finger's. I'm in my right to point a behaviour that I don't agree with. I dont need to f**** elaborate on facts when it's in plain view. When the behaviour of our leaders over the last few years have caused so much havok, it has purposely caused a global meltdown. I just cannot put a sum together as to how people put so much faith into government led agendas and government backed investigation's on 9/11. It's all about money. When will you all just get it. War is gold money for christ sakes. Lives is money. Blood is money. Why do people seem to think that This out going admin couldn't sacrifise 3,000 for a for a profitable war When that administration is directly responsible for 1 million death's in a illegal war in Iraq. You do the math's these are the fact's. It's unacceptable and absurd to accept any fact from the US government.

Please dont point fingers, do your research and gather the facts until you pick up that elusive smoking gun, who knows, next week you could say Al Queda.

I do my research:) Just don't ask me to take bull****

All this finger pointing without proof bores me...NWO, Bush did it etc...
What have you got that is new?

What you to say, other than pointing the finger now:rolleyes:

Dont get me wrong I see coincidence and mysteries too, but theres a line a good researcher doesnt cross, and its a faith or opinion based line, and thats where the ridicule starts.

Yes the ridicule starts when I hear simpletons faith hearted government worshippers follow the agenda blindly all the time. 7 years later we are still in this crap with 9/11. Enough of the bull**** already.

All loose ends seem to be tied up pretty tight, if theres a chance it was a conspiracy, it was executed brilliantly.

It was done simply and carefully over many years. We have a world populated by sheeple who believe that power doesn't corrupt even though it actually does. Politicians lie all the time, but people seem to put so much faith into conmen.

The problem today is we have to much ignorance to reality. People keep thinking the government care alot about the people. Well since 9/11 I don't think the government gave a flying bejesus. I'm so sick of this conspiracy. It will go on forever until people wake up and point the finger at the game player all along. The CIA and US government.

And by the way, anyone with good "perceptual powers" could say anyone in any situation was acting. It just depends on the motive and opinion of the person doing the perceiving.

It was acting. Study body language. Just because you don't see it doesnt' mean it's of opinion or any other.

Kernel

rccaulfield wrote: »

This thread is the lowest of the low.

Why do you feel that way caulfield? I's with Alex Jones on the no planes theory, I think it's disinfo. :cool:

bonkey

Kernel wrote: »

I's with Alex Jones on the no planes theory, I think it's disinfo. :cool:

You rule out the possibility that its just plain-old craziness, but believe rather that it is a conspiracy

Why?

bonkey

mysterious wrote: »

I.e Combine logic and Intution together to make your conclusion's. This is the way to be.

I think I see where the root of our disagreements lie.

I combine logic and intuition to form ideas.

I use logic and evidence to reach conclusions.

Mahatma coat

See the bit that always gets me about the no planes argument is

'Well then, where did the planes go?'

I do still believe that the inteligence community was complicit in the conspiracy, from not relaying information to relevant departments to deliberatley misleading other agencies right up to funding them and providing material assistance to further their own agenda, the Hawks wanted a war, they manufactured a crisis to get one.

twas quite handy for them that they had a well trained terrorist organisation on the payroll since the eighties.