[US/IRL] 5X03 - "Jughead" [** SPOILERS WITHIN **]

Sad Professor

- WARNING: THIS THREAD WILL CONTAIN SPOILERS FOR THOSE WHO HAVE NOT YET SEEN "JUGHEAD" -

Episode Title: "Jughead"
Airdate: Jan 28th 2009

Synopsis (from TV.Com):

Spoiler:

Desmond looks for a woman who might be the key to helping Faraday stop the island’s unpredictable movements through time; Locke finds out who has been attacking the survivors

Next New Episode: 5X04 - Feb 5 - 2009

---

SPOILER WARNING:

From now on, this thread shall reveal details of the episode mentioned above. If you have not yet seen this episode, please do not move any further down the thread.

This episode shall air on:

ABC (US) - Jan 28th 2009
RTÉ (IRL) - Jan 31st 2009

If you are sure you have seen the episode as mentioned above (on the channels on those original airdates), you can move down further in order to discuss the episode.

Otherwise, YOU HAVE BEEN WARNED - there shall be major plot details of the episode revealed and discussed below with no spoiler tags used!

Steoob

great episode, lots of stuff happening. i cant remember too well because it was years ago but wasn't there an episode were locke was a baby and somebody came to see him. damnit i cant remember at all hopefully someone could fill me in on that

Sad Professor

6

Well that certainly clarified a few things... I think.

Ellie is Miss Hawking... I said it first! And she's definitely Faraday's mother.

Re: the bomb... I sense an explanation for the Swan hatch coming, and I'm not sure I like it. But maybe this is what Keamy meant by "torch the island" last season.

So, yeah, Richard went to visit Locke as a boy (in Cabin Fever last season) because of Locke's time travelling in this episode. Predestination paradox. Get ready for a lot more of this.

Widmore is an Other... didn't see that coming. But it makes more sense than him being Dharma.

ShaneU

8

Steoob wrote: »

great episode, lots of stuff happening. i cant remember too well because it was years ago but wasn't there an episode were locke was a baby and somebody came to see him. damnit i cant remember at all hopefully someone could fill me in on that

Richard came to see Locke as a child and asked him to pick an item from a table, one of them was the compass that Locke showed him.

Great episode, we're really starting to see where the time travelling is stemming from. And the bomb they wanted to bury is probably the cause of the underground hatch where we first met Desmond.

V9

8

Oh that was brilliant. I actually lol'd and said to myself "oh Lost, ya did it again" when the revealed Widmore as an other. Fantastic stuff.

It was nice to see a bit more from Daniel in this ep, more direct and aggressive then in previous episodes. Yer wan that had the gun on em was quite niiiice also

Des was great once again in this ep, always enjoy a scene with him. When he marched into Widmores office he ment business.

9/10 for me. Sickened to have to wait another week for moar

cooker3

I never really felt that captivated by this episode but it did have a lot of different things going on. Widmore being on the island being the biggest revelation of course. I always assumed that would be the case but it's good to have it confirmed. As SP said the fact he is an hostile and not Dharma is a surprise.

I am a bit bothered by the Desmond and Widmore scene. Why did he just up Miss Hawkins address and why didn't he warn Desmond about the threat Ben made on Penny's life. Surely giving him that info is more likely to put her in much more danger. Does Widmore know she is working with Ben or not?

As for the bomb, wonder is it going to cause the hole that the Swan was covering maybe?

Give it a 7

R0ot

7

Loved this episode, starting to fill in a lot of the blanks now. Gave it 8/10 based on episodes one and two which were much better, this one did seem a bit stale. :pac:

ghouldaddy07

7

great episode,8/10 for me.

Great to get some backround on wildmore.

I wreckon wildmore will end up siding with the us goverment and forming dharma to combat the others.

kronsington

check out the picture of the polar bear on the wall in widmore's office

Creamy Goodness

well that was awesome.

when i saw LOST with the dramatic bang of drums at the end i couldn't believe it, i only thought i was 10 minutes in.

Also Starring LeVar Burton

9

Great episode. Love how they've managed to introduce newborns, as toddlers rather than infants ie. Ji Yeon and Charlie. Also Aaron aswell, altough we had to put up with his crying for 3 years on the island.

Wreck

8

Great episode, my favourite of the season so far. Faraday was class again and the Widmore revealation was a genuine lol. Not sure what to make of the scene in Widmore's office, doesn't seem to make much sense given what we currently know. Polar bear in the painting was a nice touch.

Ellie = Hawkins = Daniel's mom would seem to be the way things are going.

Anyone any theories on why the maintenance guy at Oxford would have to incinerate the rats? How would you be able to tell a time travelling rat from a non-time travelling rat?

jimbling

7

Great episode.
Although I'm not mad about time travel, it is a great way of showing the history of the Island.
Widmore reveal was brilliant, although somewhat predicted.
I didn't think the des widmore confrontation was great to be honest. Thought it was a bit stupid.

Steoob wrote: »

i cant remember too well because it was years ago but wasn't there an episode were locke was a baby and somebody came to see him. damnit i cant remember at all hopefully someone could fill me in on that

Wasn't years ago... just last season.:pac:

Sad Professor wrote: »

So, yeah, Richard went to visit Locke as a boy (in Cabin Fever last season) because of Locke's time travelling in this episode. Predestination paradox.

Richard also made an appearance at the hospital on the very date john provided.. i.e. the day he was born.

Sad Professor wrote: »

Ellie is Miss Hawking... I said it first! And she's definitely Faraday's mother.

Oh, nice spot..... I was trying to add something together when the whole "quit looking at me" scene was going on, but didn't jump to the right conclusion... thanks.

murfie

7

So could it be that Faraday and a few others were conceived on the Island. Which is why they have a need to return.

Good episode, as was said it revealed a fair bit.

Niall0

8

good episode, whats going on with the ginger one? and what was she there for in the first place.
Maybe the rats were something like the rabbits in the orchid station.

trishw78

6

Sun passed a comment to Widmore "We weren't the only ones to the leave the Island" I always pondered did she include Widmore in that statement.

anotherlostie

8

I loved this episode, way more than the first two. While last week I was a bit meh about the time travel aspect, it made such sense tonight. Last week there was speculation that the soldier was Widmore, but when we learned he wasn't Dharma, that was put to bed...for 10 minutes. He must have a time jump somewhere in his life, or are we to believe he is 50 years older now. I didn't link Ms. Hawking to Ellie, but it makes sense. So when she said last week, "God help us all", is she referring to all of the Others or everyone?

I sincerely hope we are going to get some closure with CS Lewis, if, as it looks, she is on her way out. A backstory has accompanied death storylines before, so I hope it will. And as Richard is now the most enigmatic character (well apart from Jacob), it would be nice to learn some more about him.

Only thing I didn't like was Desmond's story and as already said, why wouldn't Widmore have told him about Ben's threat to kill Penny. And one other thing I did like was no Oceanic 6:) Get them back to the island ASAP.

abelard

8

Great ep, agree with most of what was said above.

Re: Ellie being Faraday's mother, that does seem the most liely answer. I was thinking it could be possible she was Charlotte's mother either though? Miles did comment last season that Charlotte has tried so hard to "get back to the island", so maybe she was conceived there, and possibly to Ellie? And although I know it means very little, they both appear to be British whereas Daniel appears to be American. One thing that goes against Ellie being either of their mother though - would she have been too old by the time either Daniel or Charlotte were born?

Another thing that struck me; I know it probably sounds ridiculous, but may the writers use the time shifts as a methodd of resurrecting one or two of the dead characters? It could certianly go a way to explaining how Libby happened to meet Desmond and give him the boat, and later happened to be in Santa Rosa at the same time as Hurley.....?

Psychedelic

7

One thing that is puzzling me about the time jumps is that, say in tonight's episode when Locke was in the middle of a conversation with Richard before the flash to another time - Richard will obviously remember that he had a conversation with Locke (that's why he visits Locke when he's a kid) but does he also see Locke just disapperaing into thin air too?

DVD-Lots

8

The biggest reveal for me in this ep is that it kind of explains one of the biggest mysteries of Lost. Just how did the others know that all the main characters were coming to the island, how did they have all the files on them. Simple, Locke told them. Not in this ep but it opens the door for how the others knew so much about flight 815 and its passengers. Or has this been spotted before and I'm just a little slow?

Oh and great ep by the way, 9/10 and if you didn't spot Faraday's young mum by the obvious forced/same accent then I really am reading too much into this.

lostexpectation

who's the vegetable?

[-0-]

8

At first I thought... ah that's a nice touch when Desmond called his child Charlie....but then I thought could Desmond actually be Charlie (you are everybody!)'s father?

Sad Professor

6

lostexpectation wrote: »

who's the vegetable?

Nobody important I don't think. Just part of Faraday's dark past. However, Boone did have a maid whose name was Theresa. She fell down the stairs and broke her neck. Locke had a creepy vision in Deus Ex Machina in season 1 of a bloodied Boone saying, "Theresa falls up the stairs, Theresa falls down the stairs," etc. Boone was killed in the beechcraft in the same episode.

tvnutz

6

Wreck wrote: »

Anyone any theories on why the maintenance guy at Oxford would have to incinerate the rats? How would you be able to tell a time travelling rat from a non-time travelling rat?

Maybe they were giving off radiation. In The Constant he had to wear a lead vest when using his machine on the rats.

So,let's say Richard visited Locke at his birth because in this episode Locke told him his birth date and that he should visit him. That is what people are assuming,it is what I first thought. But was it not just in the last episode that Faraday said they couldn't change anything? EVen though they or the island was travelling through time,it didn't matter what you did,you couldn't change anything...except for Desmond because he is special. So then Richard would not have remembered what Locke told him and its not a valid explantion as to why Richard was there for Locke's birth.

tipp86

8

Ellie is the blonde girl with the gun am i right?

Snake Plisken

7

Good episode, although I find they are cramming in loads of stuff for us to take in, compared to the slow reveals on previous seasons which I actually prefer so I'll give this an 8.

Daysha

8

I completely forgot that we saw none of the Oceanic 6 until I opened this topic; that's how engrossed I got in the whole episode.

Sad Professor

6

tvnutz wrote: »

So,let's say Richard visited Locke at his birth because in this episode Locke told him his birth date and that he should visit him. That is what people are assuming,it is what I first thought. But was it not just in the last episode that Faraday said they couldn't change anything? EVen though they or the island was travelling through time,it didn't matter what you did,you couldn't change anything...except for Desmond because he is special. So then Richard would not have remembered what Locke told him and its not a valid explantion as to why Richard was there for Locke's birth.

The implication is that Locke ALWAYS travelled back in time. No alternate timeline, no changes to the past. There was never a version of the timeline where Richard wasn't visited by Locke in 1954. It's called Predestination Paradox. Have you ever seen 12 Monkeys? Or the first Terminator? They are both pretty good examples of it. Under the rules of this type of time travel, it is impossible to change the past because your very act of going back in time is already part of the timeline. In other words, John Locke always met Richard in 1954. He was predestined to go back in time and do so, even before he was born.

What's happening with Desmond is a different thing altogether. He actually can change the past, like he did by delaying Charlie's death.

Niall0

8

tvnutz wrote: »

Maybe they were giving off radiation. In The Constant he had to wear a lead vest when using his machine on the rats.

So,let's say Richard visited Locke at his birth because in this episode Locke told him his birth date and that he should visit him. That is what people are assuming,it is what I first thought. But was it not just in the last episode that Faraday said they couldn't change anything? EVen though they or the island was travelling through time,it didn't matter what you did,you couldn't change anything...except for Desmond because he is special. So then Richard would not have remembered what Locke told him and its not a valid explantion as to why Richard was there for Locke's birth.

Ya but locke is one of the special ones aswell , hes been told this many times, although he was still just doing what richard told him to do, as if it already happened. Richard gave him the compass as if he had already done it before. My head hurts dam time travel.

AlmightyCushion

What is with Richard's hair. He's about a billion years old and has never changed his haircut or style of clothing. Surely he went through a punk stage or something.

Tristram

4

He should lay off the eye-liner too...

Sad Professor

6

Tristram wrote: »

He should lay off the eye-liner too...

Carbonell's eyes are really like that... no eyeliner.

Tristram

4

:eek:

Cazlou

I enjoyed this episode. I loved that Desmond and Penny called their son Charlie! I liked that they answered a few questions and opened up a few more too, feels like we're actually getting somewhere now :cool:

I also never noticed that there was no O6 :eek: :pac:

Troublesome

cooker3 wrote: »

I never really felt that captivated by this episode but it did have a lot of different things going on. Widmore being on the island being the biggest revelation of course. I always assumed that would be the case but it's good to have it confirmed. As SP said the fact he is an hostile and not Dharma is a surprise.

I am a bit bothered by the Desmond and Widmore scene. Why did he just up Miss Hawkins address and why didn't he warn Desmond about the threat Ben made on Penny's life. Surely giving him that info is more likely to put her in much more danger. Does Widmore know she is working with Ben or not?

As for the bomb, wonder is it going to cause the hole that the Swan was covering maybe?

Give it a 7

ermmm.. do you not know what a hydrogen bomb is? it would pretty much destroy the entire island... lol

Mellor

8

Huge episode imo.

I'm happy my gun theory came off. Form The Lie thread. ie I said the gun was an M1 Garand (locke confirmed nicely) allows us to set a time line, or at least range. I gave it as pre 63. Its also a US army gun so the british guy isn't british army. He's an other we now know. And they likely got the M1s from US troops on the island.

Worth pointing out, Ellie carries a different gun. An M1 Carbine (completely unrelated to the other M1) which is also the gun Ethan shot Locke with in season 5 opener.

tvnutz wrote: »

EVen though they or the island was travelling through time,it didn't matter what you did,you couldn't change anything...except for Desmond because he is special. So then Richard would not have remembered what Locke told him and its not a valid explantion as to why Richard was there for Locke's birth.

I think you misunderstand. Faraday said that you couldn't change anything (such as the boat). This is not the same as not being able to influence the future. Richard always came to see locke and locke always time travels to give him the date.

Niall0 wrote: »

Ya but locke is one of the special ones aswell , hes been told this many times, although he was still just doing what richard told him to do, as if it already happened. Richard gave him the compass as if he had already done it before. My head hurts dam time travel.

No this isnt it. Its a casual loop, or predestination. Heres a good example;

A man travels back in time to discover the cause of a famous fire. While in the building where the fire started, he accidentally knocks over a kerosene lantern and causes a fire, the same fire that would inspire him, years later, to travel back in time.

Cazlou wrote: »

I enjoyed this episode. I loved that Desmond and Penny called their son Charlie! I liked that they answered a few questions and opened up a few more too, feels like we're actually getting somewhere now :cool:

It could also be after Pennys dad. Its obviously not, but I do get the feeling the link isnt coinsidence.

Calibos

Not named 'after' Pennys Dad. Pennys dad is called Charles because....... !!!!!!!!!!

Why did this one 'Other' have an English accent. Because his mother and dad were Scotish and English!! Whitmores mother is also his daughter!!

Charles Whitmore is named after Chaarlaaay!!

As for ellie..I must be brain dead. I figured the blonde/silver hair wasn't a co-incidence nor was the hint of an Irish accent so I had figured that Ellie was the oul wan yet I didn't cop the english accented bloke was Whitmore till the reveal nor did I connect the fact that I already knew the oul wan was faradays mother with the fact that he was staring at Ellie and saying she looked familiar. For some reason I was still thinking that Ellie was his comatose ex girlfriend or something,.

Patricide

7

Great episode, when it was revealed about whitmore being the soldier i was just sitting there gobsmacked. Great start to the season so far.

Anima

8

Yeah that was great, didn't spot the Charles Widmore reveal coming at all. Nor did I cop the whole Ellie thing, which in retrospect was fairly clear. It seems Daniel used that veggie woman as a test subject. I guess his past is a little murkier than we thought, also that hes connected to Widmore. Bring on next week!

gazzer

AlmightyCushion wrote: »

What is with Richard's hair. He's about a billion years old and has never changed his haircut or style of clothing. Surely he went through a punk stage or something.

There was one episode where Richards hair was long. It was the ep which featured Ben's back story (where he gassed the inhabitants and killed his father)

Handsome Bob

6

lostexpectation wrote: »

who's the vegetable?

I would have said perhaps a very good friend, or a girlfriend. When Des picks up the broken framed picture in Daniel's old lab, Daniel has his arm around a young blond woman. I'm not sure but that could be the same woman who is the vegtable.

Really liked this episode, it wasn't tight in regards to giving us some answers like they usually are! And Faraday is a fantasic character, credit to both actor and writers. I gave it a seven.

L31mr0d

8

Sad Professor wrote: »

In other words, John Locke always met Richard in 1954. He was predestined to go back in time and do so, even before he was born.

Here's a question for you, I think someone else has already touched on it, and its quite the noodler, but the compass that Locke gives Richard in this episode, where did it originally come from? It can't exist outside of this loop, as locke gives it to richard in the past and richard then gives it back to locke in the future. So where did it come from originally and who made it?

gazzer

L31mr0d wrote: »

Here's a question for you, I think someone else has already touched on it, and its quite the noodler, but the compass that Locke gives Richard in this episode, where did it originally come from? It can't exist outside of this loop, as locke gives it to richard in the past and richard then gives it back to locke in the future. So where did it come from originally and who made it?

Maybe the compass orignally came from the Black Rock ship?

Niall0

8

L31mr0d wrote: »

Here's a question for you, I think someone else has already touched on it, and its quite the noodler, but the compass that Locke gives Richard in this episode, where did it originally come from? It can't exist outside of this loop, as locke gives it to richard in the past and richard then gives it back to locke in the future. So where did it come from originally and who made it?

Thats why time travel is difficult to think about, i guess we just have to take it the way they show it , if you think about it too much it just wont make sense , you could say its his destiny or something.

L31mr0d

8

gazzer wrote: »

Maybe the compass orignally came from the Black Rock ship?

you aren't fully understanding me. Who got it from the Black Rock then?

The other issue, is that if this compass is in this temporal loop, then it should age by approximately 50 years per iteration. Unless Locke travelling back in time reverses the ageing of it, which I can't see happening as his clothes stay the same regardless of where in time he's jumping to.

Personally I'm liking that this whole season is going to be based around time travel. Inconsistencies aside, it should lead to some interesting story arcs.

Sad Professor

6

L31mr0d wrote: »

Here's a question for you, I think someone else has already touched on it, and its quite the noodler, but the compass that Locke gives Richard in this episode, where did it originally come from? It can't exist outside of this loop, as locke gives it to richard in the past and richard then gives it back to locke in the future. So where did it come from originally and who made it?

lol, yeah, it's a head scratcher isn't it? It's like the chicken and the egg. But this is what Predestination Paradox is all about. Under the rules of Predestination Paradox, to give an extreme example, it's possible to go back in time and become your own father. So to answer your question, the compass didn't come from anywhere. It's a loop in time.

This seems very hard for us to understand because of the way we view and experience time. i.e., the past comes before the present and the future hasn't happened yet. To understand Predestination Paradox you have to forget all that, and see time all at once — the past, the present, the future, they're all the same.

My theory is that the island is in a loop in time. The plane crash and it's survivors was the beginning of everything. This time loop will eventually cause global catastrophe. Dharma realised this and tried to understand it and stop it but they were "purged" before their work was complete.

Unearthly

Top reading in here. Helps me understand the whacky world of Lost a bit better:pac:

stevejazzx

is it a time loop or are they dislodged from their timeline?
didn't faraday explain it once as becoming dislodged from time, jumping around to different points?

Mellor

8

L31mr0d wrote: »

The other issue, is that if this compass is in this temporal loop, then it should age by approximately 50 years per iteration.

I wouldn't agree that the compass is just there and we need to accept it. As said by otheres.
Don't think of predestination as linear. There is no first time. Also, don't assume a closed loop. By that I mean, the compass may likely leave the loop and be replaced.

An plausible path might be;
Richards sees the compass on one of the others in his camp.
He recognaises it and knows he'll need it.
He then meets locke when he has a shot up leg, gives him the compass*.
Locke travels back and gives Richard the compass. And tells him the date.
Richard visits locke in the hospital, and again when a boy to test him. Locke fails to pick the compass.
Richard is annoyed that he believed what the old man on the island said in 1954, and thows the compass away as worthless.
Only when he sees locke on the island again after the crash does it become clear to him
and repeat.


*We now know why Richard said knew he wouldn't remember Locke next time they meet. As he remembered the time in 1954 when they met. Which means Ethan remembered etc.

Mr E

9

Terrific episode, head wrecking stuff.

It was asked earlier in this thread, but I'll ask again - who does Desmond and Penny's Charlie grow up to be? Charlie Pace? Charlotte (after a sex change?) Charles Widmore? (Penny is her father's mother?!) :eek:

*head explodes*

Mellor

8

Em, None of them. He was born in 2005 or so.
They are all much older
I cant see he getting in on the time loop