Corporate Greed during the Tiger Decade

Eglinton

I'm interested to hear what people suggest doing about the fat cats of this country - The likes of Sean Fitzpatrick of Anglo Irish and repayment of his loans. Will anything actually happen to them? Will the Government cop out or will they enact legislation that will bring these sort of people to account (pardon the pun!)

Sean Fitzpatrick is at the top of of my list for investigation.

But there's also the people who paid staff below minimum wage to their workers and this hilarious paradox of this CEO who simultaneously set up a Non profit charitable organisation thats preaches corporate responsibility whilst not paying his own staff for the last few months http://exstaffinlimbo.blogs.ie/

Will Ireland change it's attitude to White Collar cronyism?

Biggins

Eglinton wrote: »

...Will Ireland change it's attitude to White Collar cronyism?

No. Long story short.
The two main parties would lose out on contributions and they know it big time!
They are not going to shoot themselves in the foot or bite the hand that feeds it!

galwayrush

I get annoyed when i see people in high places get rewarded for their inefficency and greed. Massive golden handshakes and massive pensions when they should be in jail, or at least stripped of the financial rewards.
Latest one is the financial regulator who can step down next week with one amazingly generous pension plus lump sum. He didn't do his job, what the **** is he being rewarded for?. FAS and the HSE two more examples.:mad:

pablomakaveli

No. We never learn. It'll continue. Politicians might make noise about cutting this out but nothing will be done. Cronyism just seems to be embedded in Irish politics and getting rid of it just seems unlikely.

BornToKill

An Auto de Fé. A procession down O'Connell Street then tie 'em to the Spike - finally get some use out of it. It won't solve the recession but it will make everyone feel better. Televised instead of the St. Patrick's Day parade (which will be cancelled for lack of funds).

farva

Its all about risk and reward, I agree with you that when someone takes a risk, gets a reward and then it goes t1ts up that they should be held accountable. Anglo were taking far greater risks than the other banks and it has gone t1ts up so in my view there should be a fair few of the people in Anglo's commercial lending department let go.

In my opinion, I see no problem with someone earning say €1m a year if they are invaluable to a firm and generating massive revenues for their employer. For example an investment banker working their ass off for up to 20+ hours a day to close deals, they are generating the firm money and should earn aportion of what they make! Traders can make a fixed percentage of what they make, which in London can/(could) run into millions but the second that you stop making money/start losing money your out on your ass!

I know that some people wont agree with me on that one.

FlutterinBantam

I agree with you on that.

They ,however, shouldn't ride roughshod over corporate rules and regulations either.

FlutterinBantam

galwayrush wrote: »

I get annoyed when i see people in high places get rewarded for their inefficency and greed. Massive golden handshakes and massive pensions when they should be in jail, or at least stripped of the financial rewards.
Latest one is the financial regulator who can step down next week with one amazingly generous pension plus lump sum. He didn't do his job, what the **** is he being rewarded for?. FAS and the HSE two more examples.:mad:

That's it, bottom line ,we cannot afford the Public Service we have built up.

The_Minister

Eglinton wrote: »

The likes of Sean Fitzpatrick of Anglo Irish and repayment of his loans. Will anything actually happen to them? Will the Government cop out or will they enact legislation that will bring these sort of people to account (pardon the pun!)

:rolleyes:It is unconstitutional to make something retrospectively illegal.
If what they did was legal we can do nothing, if it was illegal then we might do something. But it is doubtful that Fitzpatrick and chums could be incarcerated, since what they did may have been (by the skein of their teeth) legal.

m5ex9oqjawdg2i

Well I don't think the regulator is to blame so much. It's impossible to forecast an economic crisis like we have. We can go on past trends. An economy will have a natural recession, it cannot go on forever. So I don't hold the regulator accountable.

I do believe that the fat cats, the CEO's and directors of the companies that helped bring down the economy should be held accountable for their actions.

When something goes wrong, people always look for someone to blame. Makes you feel better doesn't it? But it doesn't make the problem go away. I wish these threads would stop... like really soon.

bleg

/gets pitchfork ready

tony1kenobi

bleg wrote: »

/gets pitchfork ready

Is it kicking off? I dunno what we're all on about but I'm up for a lynching.

FlutterinBantam

And while you are at it round up all these tradesmen who fleeced the public in the boom years and show the rope to them too.

I'll kick the chair!!

mountainyman

The_Minister wrote: »

:rolleyes:It is unconstitutional to make something retrospectively illegal.

The people are sovereign and through the constitution can make retraoctive law.

Jaysoose

Samson Purple Surgeon wrote: »

Well I don't think the regulator is to blame so much. It's impossible to forecast an economic crisis like we have. We can go on past trends. An economy will have a natural recession, it cannot go on forever. So I don't hold the regulator accountable.

I do believe that the fat cats, the CEO's and directors of the companies that helped bring down the economy should be held accountable for their actions.

When something goes wrong, people always look for someone to blame. Makes you feel better doesn't it? But it doesn't make the problem go away. I wish these threads would stop... like really soon.

The regulator did not do his job, he either knew and looked after his cronies or he was incapable of doing his job to the most basic level. Either way he is partially to blame and should not be rewarded with a payoff and pension.

Frankie Lee

FlutterinBantam wrote: »

And while you are at it round up all these tradesmen who fleeced the public in the boom years and show the rope to them too.

I'll kick the chair!!

No, no, no!! Focus on the lynching of the fat cats first, we can't get distracted. Don't forget about them dodgy solicitors and most members of the PD's, I say we cook Mary Harney like a pig and put an apple in her mouth and put her on one of those spinaround thingies over a fire of old ESRI quarterly forecast reports.

biko

Hopefully The Citizen will bring them to mob justice.

Jaysoose

Jaysoose wrote: »

The regulator did not do his job, he either knew and looked after his cronies or he was incapable of doing his job to the most basic level. Either way he is partially to blame and should not be rewarded with a payoff and pension.

If the loans were hidden from auditors, hard to do.. how the fuk is the financial regulator gonna know?

Adam

biko wrote: »

Hopefully The Citizen will bring them to mob justice.

not enough bold, needs moar!!!

Frankie Lee

Deleted User wrote: »

If the loans were hidden from auditors, hard to do.. how the fuk is the financial regulator gonna know?

They were all in cahoots, thats another shower to be done away with, the top people in the big four accountancy firms, should make them work as slave labour, digging ditches would be good punishment for them.

MIN2511

We are a country filled with corruption, the leaders bend side ways to make things happen. Every country is like this, there is nothing we can do about it.
We are never going to get a Goverment 100% dedicated to doing things by the book.

Frankie Lee

MIN2511 wrote: »

We are a country filled with corruption, the leaders bend side ways to make things happen. Every country is like this, there is nothing we can do about it.
We are never going to get a Goverment 100% dedicated to doing things by the book.

Exactly why we need mob rule.

el_tiddlero

Frankie Lee wrote: »

Exactly why we need mob rule.

can anyone lend me a copy of the mob rule handbook??

SEPT 23 1989

Ochlocracy (Greek: οχλοκρατία or okhlokratía; Latin: ochlocratia) is government by mob

m5ex9oqjawdg2i

FlutterinBantam wrote: »

And while you are at it round up all these tradesmen who fleeced the public in the boom years and show the rope to them too.

I'll kick the chair!!

Were you bitching 10 years ago when you had to pay higher prices for the service? Don't blame the tradesman, they only charge what stupid people pay.

Jaysoose wrote: »

The regulator did not do his job, he either knew and looked after his cronies or he was incapable of doing his job to the most basic level. Either way he is partially to blame and should not be rewarded with a payoff and pension.

Nah, my experience is that he does do his job. Can you give any cases where he didn't? Where he neglected his obligation to regulate? Remember, we could afford 100% pensions a few years back.

The_Minister

mountainyman wrote: »

The people are sovereign and through the constitution can make retraoctive law.

The Constitution specifically forbids it, so it would involve a referendum.

A referendum which would never pass, because by and large the Irish people are not facists.

Nolanger

Samson Purple Surgeon wrote: »

It's impossible to forecast an economic crisis like we have.

Actually many of us knew this would happen:

• overlending by the banks
• 100% mortgages
• new housing estates being built on the outskirts of crap towns in the middle of nowhere
• oversupply of training courses such as law with little prospects of finding work
• too many foreigners coming here
• overcharging by the retail stores

Samson Purple Surgeon wrote: »

An economy will have a natural recession, it cannot go on forever.

This is not a natural recession - it's a disaster.
Won't go on forever but will last years.

mountainyman

The_Minister wrote: »

The Constitution specifically forbids it, so it would involve a referendum.

A referendum which would never pass, because by and large the Irish people are not facists.

Where laws which should have been made were not made because of political corruption or where a law was made because of political corruption there can be no injustice in framing a law with retroactive effect (with approval by referendum) to redress the injustice.
MM

mountainyman

Samson Purple Surgeon wrote: »

Were you bitching 10 years ago when you had to pay higher prices for the service? Don't blame the tradesman, they only charge what stupid people pay.



Nah, my experience is that he does do his job. Can you give any cases where he didn't? Where he neglected his obligation to regulate? Remember, we could afford 100% pensions a few years back.

Ireland was described as the 'Wild West' by the EU a couple of years ago. Neary wasn't doing his job. His pension should be stopped.

stovelid

Typical threads during boom: meritocratic stuff about execs deserving a huge wage. Charlie and Bertie might be crooks, but sure, didn't they do the business for us. Burn the unemployed.

Typical AH thread during recession: pitchfork and torches stuff about execs and their huge wages. Charlie and Bertie are crooks. Burn the unemployed.

Capt'n Midnight

farva wrote:

In my opinion, I see no problem with someone earning say €1m a year if they are invaluable to a firm and generating massive revenues for their employer. For example an investment banker working their ass off for up to 20+ hours a day to close deals, they are generating the firm money and should earn aportion of what they make! Traders can make a fixed percentage of what they make, which in London can/(could) run into millions but the second that you stop making money/start losing money your out on your ass!

I know that some people wont agree with me on that one.

Traders should be told that if you loose money doing something illegal then we will pay 5% of that loss to the hitman. Far too many traders who have lost over a Billion and gotten away with a jail sentence that isn't a deterent judging by all the evidence.

Each million lost in revenue by a government can roughly be equated with a life being lost through things like health funding or road safety.

farva

Capt'n Midnight wrote: »

Traders should be told that if you loose money doing something illegal then we will pay 5% of that loss to the hitman. Far too many traders who have lost over a Billion and gotten away with a jail sentence that isn't a deterent judging by all the evidence.

Generally speaking that cant really happen as banks tend to have checks and controls in place to eliminate that from happening. Traders who have lost those massive amounts in the past have greatly exceeded their capital limits and have went to a massive amount of effort to hide it from the back office.

Nick Leeson served 6 years in a Singapore prison for bringing down Barings.

K-9

Nolanger wrote: »

Actually many of us knew this would happen:

• overlending by the banks Yep and people still borrowed
• 100% mortgages Yep and people still borrowed
• new housing estates being built on the outskirts of crap towns in the middle of nowhere Yep and people still borrowed
• oversupply of training courses such as law with little prospects of finding work Yep and people still enrolled
• too many foreigners coming here Yep and too many Irish stopped emigrating and too many came back
• overcharging by the retail stores Yep and people didn't shop around

This is not a natural recession - it's a disaster.
Won't go on forever but will last years.

Did I mention people borrowed too much?

panda100

Samson Purple Surgeon wrote: »

Well I don't think the regulator is to blame so much.

Surely its lack of regulation and allowing banks,corporations etc do whatever they like has caused this mess?

Nolanger wrote: »

Actually many of us knew this would happen:

• overlending by the banks
• 100% mortgages
• new housing estates being built on the outskirts of crap towns in the middle of nowhere
• oversupply of training courses such as law with little prospects of finding work
  
• too many foreigners coming here
• overcharging by the retail stores

Actually these 'foreigners' were invaluable to our country during the Celtic Tiger, employed in every sector from health to hospitality to construction. Not only have these 'foreigners' contributed to Ireland with taxes but also as users of goods and services. Please explain how migrants have caused global economic collapse?

Funny how you never see the regular ignorant, racist contributers to the deportation threads on threads such as this. How comes they never denounce and spurl abuse at the criminal bankers, corrupt politicans,fat cat property developers and tax exiles whom have cost the state absolute billions in the last decade? They remain silent on these threads and yet consistently attack the absolute lowest rung of Irish society so consistently and vehmently on other threads.

Nolanger

panda100 wrote: »

Please explain how migrants have caused global economic collapse?

Don't know about "global economic collapse" but in this country we'd achieve a lot of savings on social welfare payments if they went home.
Before you reply with the predictable slant of being racist there's supposed to be an EU fund for this idea.
Pity our spineless politicians can't discuss this.

gurramok

Are we lynching foreigners now?

Who next to add to the list for burning at the stake?

K-9

gurramok wrote: »

Are we lynching foreigners now?

Who next to add to the list for burning at the stake?

See other thread on the other ould reliable, single parents!

Fulton Crown

Don't buy the conspiracy theories about everybody being in cahoots.

To me it smacks of just plain incompetence which seems to be widespread.

Take the regulator - I have a clear recollection of this Bozo being interviewed on national media and ASSURING all and sundry that there was NO problem with the Irish Banking System.

Clearly there WAS and neither he or his highly paid staff copped it - OK he is gone and rightly so ..but how many others ???.

Take the Auditors of Anglo I...definately should have seen what was going for EIGHT years.hope they suffer commercially.

The Roscommon case...kids coming into school clearly malnourished, smelly and with lice running down their faces...whats done ...nothing !

No checks no balances no one either the balls or gumption to say - this is not right !

The Neary case - similiar - The Donegal Gardai scandal - similiar - the cancer mis-diagnosis cases ...all similiar...mainly because people in positions of responsibility were just not doing their jobs.

Throw in the Galway water fiasco as well if you like......

Yes we are a BANANA REPUBLIC !!

Anyways I was behind a guy at an ATM the other night..when the message "Insufficient funds " came up on the screen.

He turned to me an said " Jeeze - I wonder is that me or them" !!

Had to laugh........

thelordofcheese

gurramok wrote: »

Are we lynching foreigners now?

Who next to add to the list for burning at the stake?

What we need is a single mother from poland that is also a TD, that way we can get a trifecta of impotent rage.

IvySlayer

Fulton Crown wrote: »

Anyways I was behind a guy at an ATM the other night..when the message "Insufficient funds " came up on the screen.

He turned to me an said " Jeeze - I wonder is that me or them" !!

Had to laugh........

You were pretty close :eek:

Duck's hoop

Fulton Crown wrote: »

Anyways I was behind a guy at an ATM the other night..when the message "Insufficient funds " came up on the screen.

He turned to me an said " Jeeze - I wonder is that me or them" !!

Had to laugh........

An angel at his shoulder.

Kipperhell

Very simply the views of everybody here is shifting responsibility away from who they align themselves with.
The poor Joe blames the companies
The companies say it is the environment caused by the government/people
The government blame the companies to align with the common people but deals with the companies more.

The people are to blame for not taking responsibility for their own actions. The government is to blame for not protecting the people. The companies are to blame for be greedy.

The problems are that the people will never take responsibility the government are to blame for not controlling things but companies acted exactly as everybody expects.

As you can only control your own actions I suggest take responsibility for your own actions. I made money when I could and saved so I should be OK for 18 months worst case scenario. I see many companies made money while they could too and I can't blame them for that. The government are really the only people I really blame. They educated morons so they couldn't take responsibility for themselves!

Biggins

The government had a golden opportunity during the celtic tiger to do a number of things.
Foremost as a massive attic-like clean out of everything that was not need and un-necessary in the civil service sector.
Secondly, they should have built up the states savings, shoving a little aside nest egg like, for the bad times should (which they did) come. They had a rare and massive chance in this alone to take this move but failed completely.
They could have built up the medical services and fire/Garda services as first responders - in this important area - they completely and utterly fcuked up again.

What did they do instead?
Went on a massive spending spree buying land, property upped their own wages massively, created a commercial market where it was ok to spend, spend, spend without future consequences. They saw to the big boys in suits, wined and dined them, pandered to them and then heaped rewards upon them, giving them the feeling they they could do what they likes, when they likes and to whoever!
Don't get me started on the continuing junkets and perks! (€240 a week extra "walk around money" on top of their wages alone is disgraceful!!!)

...and thats just to begin with...

At the end of the day Joe Citizen only gets paid so much and has a maximum amount of cash in his pocket by the weekend after expensive food, costly oil and gas, phone and electricity (still growing) bills.
Now the muppets in power want to try and grab what left in our pockets and even try to use that to pay off their many screw-ups and bills which still are on all out heads (E-Voting machines for example and their housing).

If the majority of the Irish nation kops itself on and gets to its feet, there just might be riots in the streets as the Dail screw-ups continue to make the hard worker pay!

Daithi McGee

SEPT 23 1989 wrote: »

Ochlocracy (Greek: οχλοκρατία or okhlokratía; Latin: ochlocratia) is government by mob

I was about to correct your sorry ass there and have mini rant about the state of the education system in this country, using Sinbad films as an example, then I realised you didn't say Oligarchy, rule of the few and all that jazz.

ejmaztec

I think that the entire working population of Ireland should all decide to take a day off so that they can all queue up to sign on at their local dole office - April 1st would be suitable.

I'd like to be a fly on the wall in Biffo's office when the news filters through. He'd sh1t himself inside out.