Divided we stand united we fall (long way from home).

humberklog

I thought to shift the furniture a little by popping up a song with no lyrics and would be interested in any feedback for a number of reasons. 1stly and obviously: is it any good but also is it any other song that I'm not aware of? The reason for asking is I composed it in one go over the space of 25 minutes and in total an hour to get the links etc. in the right place...now this speediness makes me a little suspicious. Maybe it was an existing tune that I've caught in my sub-conscious and I've just replicated it. I honestly think that it came to me and gathered together because it's a simple tune and a good tune but I'm just not 100% sure so I'm a little bit wary of giving it full on cosideration for perfecting. Make sense?

The words are there but not yet exact (but close). I have the story that the song's telling me in full so it's just the little matter of banging a few round pegs into a few square holes.

I'm not really interested in comparisons. For e.g "the style reminds me of (insert whoever's name)" as I find this style of criticism a little lazy and fairly irksome. (Get me! Criticising the critics). I would just would like to know if it is a full on rip-off of a song I'm not fully aware of and if it's not do you think it's any good? You know they way it is with a brand new song- it's hard to see the deadwood for the living trees.

It's recorded a little loose and the fingering ain't so hot but hopefully it's enough for you to get the gist.
MySpace URL:

www.myspace.com/armstrongjude



I'll put it up as first player on Myspace.

Whipping Boy

I really like it man. It has a very relaxing air to it and I found myself humming along and making up words to it as it went along which is always a good sign!

humberklog

Thanks very much Whip. I've been away from guitar last few days but I have tightened it up now and playing this tune far more assuredly. Sounding very good. Words on the way. They're slowly coming to the fore like bubbles rising through a pint of Guinness. Clarity evolving.

humberklog

Had to try and finish this off as there's another song coming down the tracks and I had to move this off the desk to make way. I've only just finished words and I am a little unsure, so all good criticisms taken note of. I recorded it once off so it's very,very rough and not fully tied together but at least I've got something of a whole now to perfect down. Should be there by the end of the week. So singing's poxy, playing's not too hectic either but I think I get the gist across. As said a polished version to follow soon.

To run. To fall.


Everybody here is a long, long way from home.

But here we are, without a prayer.
Just a step from the stair.
Sign our names in the sand: Departed and Gone.
'Til we run 'til we fall a long way from here.
To run. To fall.

Won't you let me go?
Like the others, your older, departed and gone.

We'll leave our surrounds, drop out of towns.
Where faces'll change. The buildings? The same.
We'll share in our fear 'til one disappears
And fall through crowds a long way from here.

But won't you let me go?
When you realise that everybody here is like you
in fear and a long, long, long way from home.

Divided we stand united we fall.
'Til we run 'til we fall a long way from home.
Names in the sand: Departed and Gone.
'Til we run 'til we fall a long way from home.

humberklog

I thought to try out a poll. I noticed it has never been done and it could be the way forward. Something new anyway.

humberklog

I'm hiding the new words to a new song here. It's more directly worded, kept very simple and as it's Valintine's I don't mind bearing it. The song is on myspace (link is on post 1). Again it's rough. I wrote it in a half hour (words and music) and recorded it immediately. The chords are simple but quick so a bit more practice and it should be there. Read it and try not to laugh. Oddly it's the song that I've got more emotional whilst writing than any other.

Hungrier than a storm.


When you call out I'll be there.
To whisper all those careful words
that you need to hear.
That you need to hear.
When you need me near.

If you fall out I will pick you up.
Place you back on top.
That's where you belong.
Right where you belong.
Up here with me.

When your skies are grey
and your swallowing waves
tripping over graves...

I will protect you. Keep you safe and warm.
Chase away all your ghosts
a shelter from the storm.
Shoo away your ghosts.
A shelter from the storm.

What you give me I can't live without.
You soften all the pain in me.
Cast away all doubts.

I'm hungrier than a storm.
Softer than a stone.
I'm hungrier than a storm.
Now softer than a stone.
I'm hungrier. More hungry than a storm.

donkeypop

humberklog wrote: »

Hungrier than a storm

Mixing your metaphors should be avoided I think, and if necessary should be done with caution. It's hard to imagine how a storm would "eat", so it falls to you to explain the metaphor in the song: If you said something such as, "Hungry like a hurricane eating up the sky" it would be better (still not great as a hurricane opening is generally referred to as an "eye" not a "mouth")

Anyway, take heart, even Shakespeare mixed his metaphors:

"to take arms against a sea of troubles" (Hamlet's Soliloquy)

humberklog

I have no issues mixing metaphors. I agree it can be slippery ground but this mostly lays in the realms of literature or more suspiciously...journalism. When there's a taste of mixing metaphors in lyrics (combined with an air) they can sneak under the radar and leave the essence of intent.
What I do avoid is drawing attention to them. This is done by using the word 'like'. I avoid at all costs using the word 'like' when explaining (or drawing attention to) a metaphor. My thoughts on it are: be the metaphor. In the case of this song I am an insatiable storm wanting to devour all that the muse can put out. In the case of this song I am not 'like' a storm. I am the storm. Donkey you make the assumption that the storm is weather related-it's not. You've taken it very literal. If it does lie in the realms of metaphor then it lies at the feet of ring fencing entropy. It is not however down to the writer to explain this. It is for the listener to take what they want from it.

'Like' is a lazy tool in lyrics and a massive deflector of emotion. Say it! Take it on the chin. Don't be 'like' anything. Get up and say it and stop hiding behind tools. Just be. No hiding behind security blankets of deflection. No cowardice. 'Like' is for cowards (and novelists, and dodgey journos).

I like Shakespeare a lot. The literature forum is five columns to the left and about 11 down.
Mixing metaphors is as slippery as mixing forums or mixing mediums or just getting mixed up.

donkeypop

humberklog wrote: »

I have no issues mixing metaphors. I agree it can be slippery ground but this mostly lays in the realms of literature or more suspiciously...journalism.

Poetry, writing song lyrics, novels, and even good journalism all fall under the umbrella of "literature".

When there's a taste of mixing metaphors in lyrics (combined with an air) they can sneak under the radar and leave the essence of intent.
What I do avoid is drawing attention to them. This is done by using the word 'like'. I avoid at all costs using the word 'like' when explaining (or drawing attention to) a metaphor.

"Hungry" is a metaphor for your emotion (you're not actually hungry) and Storm is a metaphor for "your state" (you're not actually a storm). "Hungry like a storm" is a simile which mixes two different metaphors. If you use "Like" "as" or "than" you are still comparing them in the some way.

I am an insatiable storm wanting to devour all that the muse can put out. In the case of this song I am not 'like' a storm. I am the storm.

Yes, I get that, but storms don't devour. A storm destroys but it does not eat the material. It leaves it behind in a ruined state.

Donkey you make the assumption that the storm is weather related-it's not. You've taken it very literal.

If it does lie in the realms of metaphor then it lies at the feet of ring fencing entropy. It is not however down to the writer to explain this. It is for the listener to take what they want from it.

This is actually what I'm trying to get at. Everyone will take the storm to be weather-related unless you give them a different frame of reference within the song. If you mean for people to interpret it as "Not weather-related", then you need to give them a clue.

'Like' is a lazy tool in lyrics and a massive deflector of emotion. Say it! Take it on the chin. Don't be 'like' anything. Get up and say it and stop hiding behind tools. Just be. No hiding behind security blankets of deflection. No cowardice. 'Like' is for cowards (and novelists, and dodgey journos).

Simile can be wonderfully entertaining:

"writing about music is like dancing about architecture" (Frank Zappa)

Oscar Wilde said it best:

Similes are like the taste of ice-cream on a hot day. The taste of ice-cream on a hot day is refreshing, just like a simile. These are not to be confused with metaphors which are ice-creams.

I like Shakespeare a lot. The literature forum is five columns to the left and about 11 down.
Mixing metaphors is as slippery as mixing forums or mixing mediums or just getting mixed up.

As a songwriter, I think you shouldn't divorce yourself from the rest of literature.

humberklog

A storm envelops. A storm ravages. A storm devours.

I like to distance myself from the rest of literature. I like to write freely. That way a point is made uniquely (hopefully) and that's where I get most of my enjoyment in writing lyrics. Writing without a compass and making my own points, stories, emotional expansions, fantasies all without relying on quotations from past writers such as Shakespeare, Zappa or Wilde. Allow it to stand (or fall) on its own individual merits.

Although the song in question would be one of the few where I've used rather hackneyed lines. Certainly not new ground. However the intention was to write a lullaby so I'm happy to pop those obvious endeavours onto my sleeve.

donkeypop

humberklog,

You can write freely and not distance yourself from other literature. Other literature, just like movies, songs, conversations with friends and your own general life experience can be inspiration for your own creations. Nobody writes in a vacuum though.

Every songwriter for instance is influenced by other songwriters. Bob Dylan was influenced by Guthrie and Seeger and the folk tunes of the south, and even Greek mythology but he found his own groove in there and he managed to write some wonderful original lyrics. Unless you've been raised in a bubble and never heard any music you have not avoided influences either.

Although the song in question would be one of the few where I've used rather hackneyed lines. Certainly not new ground. However the intention was to write a lullaby so I'm happy to pop those obvious endeavours onto my sleeve.

Well, yes, in the end, obviously, as long as you are happy with the song that's what really counts. At least you can see that some of the lines are rather hackneyed, but for this song you are prepared to accept that.

humberklog

Yeah Donkey I didn't represent myself well in the previous post. What I intended to say was : I don't agree with the strictures of writing that you do.

I don't like doing comparisons but you can take almost any songwriter and see where your point doesn't hold water. For e.g Paul Simon 'i am a rock. I am an island' then switch it over and hear 'like a bridge over troubled waters'. Both sides of each others coin there.

As for being happy with the song...hmm I'm in the middle. I like the tune and was happy to keep the wording as simple as the tune was directing. Again as said it's not really the story or angle I look for. But in a way it is very refreshing to do such a ditty.

As for being 'prepared to accept that'. Eh...more than accepting of it and more like embracing it. Very liberating to steer directly into an area of sentiment that I'd generally avoid.

donkeypop

Paul Simon on lyrical inspiration and literary influence for the album "Graceland" (one of my favorite albums and artists):

For lyrical inspiration, he relied heavily on the words of Derek Walcott, the noted poet from St. Vincent who teaches at Boston University. ''He's an extraordinary poet whose Caribbean settings seemed to fit what was going on,'' Mr. Simon said. ''I would start out by using his words, then gradually wean myself from them and put in my own. I would come up with phrases that I thought sounded nice, although I had no idea what they meant. The phrase 'Why deny the obvious child?' is very easy to say. 'The cross is in the ballpark' I found to be a satisfying rhythmic phrase against the drums. I often found myself jumping from subject to subject in the same song.''

http://query.nytimes.com/gst/fullpage.html?res=9C0CEEDE1E3AF937A25753C1A966958260&sec=&spon=&pagewanted=3

donkeypop

Paul Simon on lyrical inspiration and literary influence for the album "Graceland" (one of my favorite albums and artists):

For lyrical inspiration, he relied heavily on the words of Derek Walcott, the noted poet from St. Vincent who teaches at Boston University. ''He's an extraordinary poet whose Caribbean settings seemed to fit what was going on,'' Mr. Simon said. ''I would start out by using his words, then gradually wean myself from them and put in my own. I would come up with phrases that I thought sounded nice, although I had no idea what they meant. The phrase 'Why deny the obvious child?' is very easy to say. 'The cross is in the ballpark' I found to be a satisfying rhythmic phrase against the drums. I often found myself jumping from subject to subject in the same song.''

http://query.nytimes.com/gst/fullpage.html?res=9C0CEEDE1E3AF937A25753C1A966958260&sec=&spon=&pagewanted=3

donkeypop

All I'm saying is that you regard literary influence as "stricture"; I, and Paul Simon, see it as "inspiration". It's just a matter of opinion though.

humberklog

donkeypop wrote: »

It's just a matter of opinion though.

A well laboured opinion (and one I don't hold) at this stage.

Any opinion on the tune?

On a P.S Donkey I don't read links or quote boxes as the one you've posted so am unable to comment on it. Just another me thing.

donkeypop

humberklog wrote: »

A well laboured opinion (and one I don't hold) at this stage.

Any opinion on the tune?

The tune:

You've got a wonderful tone to your voice. The only problem is that for quite a few bits you don't hold the melody very well, and are almost speaking the words, like you're reciting a poem (which, with your tone, I actually like), so it's hard to judge the tune precisely. The guitar is lovely and from what I could hear of the tune and the structure I thought it had potential. I liked the bit at 1.09

humberklog wrote: »

On a P.S Donkey I don't read links or quote boxes as the one you've posted so am unable to comment on it. Just another me thing.

Em, that's kinda strange. The quote in the box demonstrated that you were wrong about Paul Simon, and that his opinion correlated with mine: that he did take on board many influences literary and otherwise for writing his songs, and that his work for "Graceland" was based on the work of poet he liked. I just posted the source out of courtesy. You didn't have to read it as all the information was in the quote.

humberklog

Ok I've read it now. Odd thing is is that I remember the gist of that interview from when it first came out. I don't see how that makes you right and me wrong. I remember another interview where he was also saying much to the effect that he uses words for their phonetic quality of drawing an image rather than within their literal sense. I fling socks and boots in for the same reason.

I'm very surprised at comment about my voice. I write imagening someone else singing and hearing other instruments being played. I'm only playing about 3years and I'm no spring chick so I'm clumsy at best in fingering on the guitar. But as for singing it took a long time to stop cringing whenever I heard it. Now I just flinch a little.
You're right on the recording of that song. I haven't got around to properly nailing it with confidence. The recording was made 40 minutes after the first iota on it. I had to throw it out there though as there's another song that has been bugging my grey matter and I need to have an empty desk for to accommodate the work on it. (Oddly it's another on Joyce's Ulysses and these are tricky balancing affairs). But it's not coming so I'm going to go back and work on the clarity and conviction on the 2 songs on this thread. Joyce (and Paul Simon) will have to wait.

donkeypop

humberklog,

It's a cliché, but your voice sounds "lived in". It's kinda of like Mick Flannery, or Nick Cave with an older tone. The problems are tuning and enunciation, both of which can be fixed, but you can't really teach tone, IMO. Your guitar is perfectly fine, but if I had that tone I would spend a little on singing lessons. A friend of mine did singing lessons for a year and her tuning, control, enunciation, breathing improved hugely (however, her tone (which was already lovely) didn't really change).

Anyway, it's been good chatting and good luck with finishing off the song.

humberklog

This bit of a song popped out of no-where today and I had to put it somewhere or I'd forget it. Words are coming so it's only music. I need to make a better link in around 1min47sec. The song lasts about 2min20sec and has the working title: Jesus Moved Ahead in Light Years. (It's not a christian/religious song)