Why is the public sector so innefficient?

WxfrdJay

I was trying to think of a more polite term for "crap", hense the word innefficient, but I'm really not confining it to innefficiency. Really though, why are they so hopelessly incapable? I was going to refine it to a certain number of disciplines within the civil service, but on thinking, there arn't really many who escape the generalism. Maybe some in healthcare, the odd few in education and the very improbable Guard worth his/her salt do, but generally speaking they are completely useless and I'm wondering why? They get paid a fortune, well I mean not by private sector standards but it's in most cases far above minimum wage. I have a sister in law working in the Passport office and she started on €26k! That's rediculous money,If you compare it to a full-time bartender whom would take home only 30k for working 5 or 50 times harder, it seems grossly unfair. The average salary for graduates in the private in the private secot is only about €34k how someone working in a state job can start on 65 -70% of this is appauling.

I'm writing this on hold to the motor taxation office (going on 50 minutes) Somebody suggested to me before that it was because the people whom work in the public sector are mostly below average intelligence, but I thought this was a tad harsh, and would not like to think it true. Anyone have a more acceptable theory?

mike65

Complex systems, developed for the "convience" of the public service not the end user, no fear of getting sacked or laid off for inefficency/incompetence.

Aviator55

I believe they are as intelligent as the rest of us. I have yet to meet a dumb Tax Inspector, for example.

The problem is one of evolution. Private enterprise companies can be as incompetent and inefficient in the short term, and overpay themselves just as much as public servants, but if they keep it up they cannot compete and go broke.

Public servants have no competition. They are the last organizations where unions have any power. Nobody will go on strike in the private sector for fear of seeing their jobs fly off to India

Paparazzo

OP, read your post. the guy that gets the safe, high paying, easy job is "less intelligent"? How does that work!

OhNoYouDidn't

You say you were waiting 50 mins in a tax office. Ever tried to deal with NTL?

The public sector is no more or less efficient or incapable than any other large organisation.

WxfrdJay

Paparazzo wrote: »

OP, read your post. the guy that gets the safe, high paying, easy job is "less intelligent"? How does that work!

High paying? I said 26k is a rediculously high amount to pay someone to work so little. I personnally would not take any job at 26k, but my thinking is not para with that of a civil servant so that point is moot.

Secondly, It was not I that said he was less intelligent. I said I had heard that, but refused to believe it.

Perhaps you should read my OP once more.

Do you work within the civil service??

Lu Tze

Having had some experience being seconded into a public sector office for about a year, part of the blame has to be put in to the systems in place. Getting payments approved etc take an enormous amount of time, purely because it all has to be recorded as above board so there is lots of red tape.

dodgyme

OhNoYouDidn't wrote: »

You say you were waiting 50 mins in a tax office. Ever tried to deal with NTL?
.

the vrt office either hang up or keep transferring you and then hang up or answer the phone by taking it off the hook and leaving it on their desks without speaking although you can hear them typing and then after a few mins you hang up. - great system:rolleyes:

deisebabe

the civil service wages are extremely good...particularly when you take into account the quality of their work. They hire in consultants to do the actual work that is then passed off as the work of five of them as they have no other way to account for their hours. True story is that in one department a guy took three months to compile a relatively simple 15 page document. I cannot IMAGINE how it took so long.
Also if you step into any of their IT depts it certainly isn't the civil service doing the work. Instead its contractors costing us 450 - 500 euros a day. PS is a joke in most cases. The problem is the legit hard workers that are in there are labelled alongside the fools that shuffle along in a job that they cannot be fired from.
Oh and the "normal" civil servants will actually agree. I feel sorry for them having to put up with the incompetence that is rife in the departments.
Another thing I dont understand is paying for civil servants to do college courses and then not use them in their qualified area.........

dodgyme

OhNoYouDidn't wrote: »

The public sector is no more or less efficient or incapable than any other large organisation.

ah come on now, where are you livin?

dodgyme

Aviator55 wrote: »

I believe they are as intelligent as the rest of us.

I agree with this but there is the argument to be made that you can let you brain rot in the CS?

jim o doom

WxfrdJay wrote: »

I'm writing this on hold to the motor taxation office (going on 50 minutes) Somebody suggested to me before that it was because the people whom work in the public sector are mostly below average intelligence, but I thought this was a tad harsh, and would not like to think it true. Anyone have a more acceptable theory?

That's funny, I rang Esat BT (my braodband which I pay money for in the private sector) there the other day, was on hold for over an hour & never got a call back at all. Yeah man, the public sector is SO inefficient, these things never happen anywhere else. *sigh*

jim o doom

And re the passport office; I lost my passport (lost read, my sister filed it in the DVD's of which there are hundreds, great place to put it - didn't know it was even there for months afterwards), and missed my 9 in the morning flight for holland, the pasport office had a replacement passport in my hands at 11.30 that morning. So damn inefficient, I had to wait like 2 and a half hours! I don't imagine any private company getting anything sorted that quickly.

Thomas_S_Hunterson

jim o doom wrote: »

That's funny, I rang Esat BT (my braodband which I pay money for in the private sector) there the other day, was on hold for over an hour & never got a call back at all. Yeah man, the public sector is SO inefficient, these things never happen anywhere else. *sigh*

You're confusing inefficiency with poor customer service.

The purpose of a corporation is to make money. They are usually efficient at doing this. Hiring as few customer service people as possible is one way of keeping costs down.

The purpose of the public service is not to make money, it is to provide services to citizens. They are hopelessly inefficient at doing this as shown by the fact that for teh most part they are money-pits.

Darragh29

I recently filed my ammual return with the CRO (Companies Registration Office), online. I registered to do the whole thing electtonically, everything I need to do to remain compliant now, I can do online.

Same is true for motor tax, I think this is great and hats off to the folks who are in the public sector who are driving this change...

But I was in the Births & Deaths Register Research Office in the Irish Life Mall just off Abbey Street and they don't open until 9:30 and close at 4PM! In 2009, I think this isn't on... Also, you walk into the building, there is a girl who is on a security desk, you have to sign in there. Then you go up to the 4th floor to the General Registers Research Office and there is another security person there who is doing nothing but reading a paper every time I go in there and has the public sector attitude and all to go with him...

gazzer

deisebabe wrote: »

The problem is the legit hard workers that are in there are labelled alongside the fools that shuffle along in a job that they cannot be fired from.
Oh and the "normal" civil servants will actually agree. I feel sorry for them having to put up with the incompetence that is rife in the departments.
Another thing I dont understand is paying for civil servants to do college courses and then not use them in their qualified area.........

Totally agree. I have a pain in my testicles with people saying all civil sevents are lazy so and sos or all civil servents spend half the day doing nothing etc etc. If you swapped the term Civil Servents for travellers or black people you would be getting lynched. I have worked in the civil service since 1991(worked at various jobs in the private sector before that), I have had 3 promotions in that time (had to do exams and interviews for all 3. I didnt just get them) and at the moment my salary is €44,000. Its a good salary but it has taken me 18 years to get to it and I work bloody hard for my money. Of course there are lazy f*ckers in the CS and PS but the majority of people are hard working.

In regards to the college courses. I totally agree with you there also. HR dont put qualified people in the proper area for the most part. Im my case I have been (I did Computer Programming and IT management in college at night) and that is the area I am currently working in.

jim o doom

Sean_K wrote: »

You're confusing inefficiency with poor customer service.

The purpose of a corporation is to make money. They are usually efficient at doing this. Hiring as few customer service people as possible is one way of keeping costs down.

The purpose of the public service is not to make money, it is to provide services to citizens. They are hopelessly inefficient at doing this as shown by the fact that for teh most part they are money-pits.

You are being pedantic; the end result in BOTH scenarios is an unhappy customer, regardless of whether it's in the Private or Public sector.

The OP is complaining about waiting. Waiting happens to Private customers, regardless of whether it's due to inefficiency or an active decision by a company.

Hell I had a vehicle which was purchased 2nd hand sold by a dealer and was in the feckin garage every weekend for several months and for several weeks in one stretch.. and the dealer had to foot all the bills - was that due to policy or the magical "stupidity which never happens in the private sector ever"?

ytpe2r5bxkn0c1

Wxford Jay I'm amazed that you can measure the amount of work done by your sister-in-law in some way that can compare it to a bartender. You have no idea what the intelligence level of people in the Public Sector is. As neither have I. Indeed I imagine their grammar and spelling is superior to what you demonstrated in your opening piece (but that's another matter for another time). There are inefficient people in all walks of life. I'm not defending public sector inefficiencies as I have suffered at their hands in the past, but I'm defending the fact that I experience as much (maybe more as I haven't found a scale of inefficiency which I can use) in private industry and service providers. Service in shops is sometimes deplorable, courior services loose packages, cable providers have messed up billing, some builders do shoddy work. Just read some of the threads here every day detailling problems with shops and businesses. There are intelligent and efficient workers in all walks of life.
I'd consider €26k to be nothing wonderful if I was giving an honest and busy year's work in return. Who can judge ? To others it's a fortune.
There are many in the private sector on huge bonus payments for very inefficient work - banks ring any bells?
Generally I think this country is dogged by begrudders who just love to complain about easy targets such as the public sector.

Thomas_S_Hunterson

jim o doom wrote: »

You are being pedantic; the end result in BOTH scenarios is an unhappy customer, regardless of whether it's in the Private or Public sector.

The OP is complaining about waiting. Waiting happens to Private customers, regardless of whether it's due to inefficiency or an active decision by a company.

However the private sector do not have a responsibility to anyone but their shareholders (obviously they must operate within the law). If they can still do good business despite unhappy customers then they're more than entitled to do so.

The public sector do have a resposibility directly to the citizens of Ireland.

OhNoYouDidn't

dodgyme wrote: »

ah come on now, where are you livin?

I'm serious. I actually can't remember the last public service related battle I have had, but by jaysis have I had some humdingers with the commercial sector. There was an issue with my car tax and registration and a guy in Clondalkin dealt with it in 2 mins. Done, dusted and an apology. Compared to my recent dealings with NTL, eircom and MBNA, they were a model of efficency.

I'm not saying all public sector bodies are especially efficient, but its a myth to suggest that they are inefficient in the scheme of things. Its a tired cliché.

ytpe2r5bxkn0c1

Sean_K wrote: »

You're confusing inefficiency with poor customer service..

Bull! Keeping a Customer holding for that length of time is inefficiency.
It's amazing how a problem in the Public sector is called Inefficiency and one in the Private sector gets the less harsh title of Poor Customer Service! Get real! We can all find inefficiencies anywhere in any sector we choose to ridicule.

OhNoYouDidn't

Sean_K wrote: »

However the private sector do not have a responsibility to anyone but their shareholders (obviosly they must operate within the law). If they can still do good business despite unhappy customers then they're more than entitled to do so.

The public sector do have a resposibility directly to the citizens of Ireland.

A valid point in so far as it goes, but is the simple issue that a direct comparison between customer service in the public sector and private sector and how long it takes to get things done is much of a muchness.

jim o doom

Sean_K wrote: »

However the private sector do not have a responsibility to anyone but their shareholders (obviosly they must operate within the law). If they can still do good business despite unhappy customers then they're more than entitled to do so.

The public sector do have a resposibility directly to the citizens of Ireland.

Pedantry yet again, why am I not surprised?

The point is that people are comparing the Private and Public sector; even though the service people receive is ultimately similar.

Are you saying the two cannot be compared because of who they are responsible to? Also, the civil service & government in general has a "repsonsibility to the public" - in a PERFECT world.

Does the government in power look to be having it's citizens interests at heart? not really. The civil service answers to those in power (government) which sets the policies & whatever else in place- not the people or as you would say in the private sector "customers".

And the service people are complaining so much about, doesn't really differ that much from the private ultimately.

parsi

Have to say hats off to the Revenue.

Submitted our details online last week for Medical expenses and got the cheques yesterday.

Paparazzo

WxfrdJay wrote: »

High paying? I said 26k is a rediculously high amount to pay someone to work so little. I personnally would not take any job at 26k, but my thinking is not para with that of a civil servant so that point is moot. you said "They get paid a fortune", and if they don't, what's the problem?

Secondly, It was not I that said he was less intelligent. I said I had heard that, but refused to believe it. you heard something that you don't believe, why do you feel the need to post it? sounds like you're trying to troll some civil servents

Do you work within the civil service?? no, used to work with bord gais though.

Darragh29 wrote: »

But I was in the Births & Deaths Register Research Office in the Irish Life Mall just off Abbey Street and they don't open until 9:30 and close at 4PM!

Try going to a bank!

Thomas_S_Hunterson

Leonardo Young Band wrote: »

Bull! Keeping a Customer holding for that length of time is inefficiency.
It's amazing how a problem in the Public sector is called Inefficiency and one in the Private sector gets the less harsh title of Poor Customer Service! Get real! We can all find inefficiencies anywhere in any sector we choose to ridicule.

Business will get things done fast if it worth their while doing so.

It is simply not profitable to invest a lot of money and time into keeping a single customer happy.

OhNoYouDidn't wrote: »

A valid point in so far as it goes, but is the simple issue that a direct comparison between customer service in the public sector and private sector and how long it takes to get things done is much of a muchness.

You're not comparing like with like. Compare the speed of each sector in performing it's primary function, i.e. for the corporation, to make money and for the public sector, to serve the country.

The corporation will bend over backwards to increase revenues. The public sector will bend over backwards for no-one.

jim o doom wrote: »

Pedantry yet again, why am I not surprised?

The point is that people are comparing the Private and Public sector; even though the service people receive is ultimately similar.

Are you saying the two cannot be compared because of who they are responsible to? Also, the civil service & government in general has a "repsonsibility to the public" - in a PERFECT world.

Does the government in power look to be having it's citizens interests at heart? not really. The civil service answers to those in power (government) which sets the policies & whatever else in place- not the people or as you would say in the private sector "customers".

And the service people are complaining so much about, doesn't really differ that much from the private ultimately.

I can guarantee you that if the directors of a private company were failing in their duties, the shareholders would be quick to oust them. In the public sector, there is no penalty for inefficency and thus it is rife.

jim o doom

Sean_K wrote: »

However the private sector do not have a responsibility to anyone but their shareholders (obviously they must operate within the law). If they can still do good business despite unhappy customers then they're more than entitled to do so.

The public sector do have a resposibility directly to the citizens of Ireland.

Yeah great, the public sector do have a "responsibility" to the citizen, just like a "customer service agent" has a responsibility to "help" the customer, which is their JOBS DESCRIPTION, correct? and yet many times, through ineptitude or company policy, this doesn't happen! GASP

I love how you've ignored every other point I've made and just decided to more or less repeat your previous post.. good tactic, I've seen politicians do that; completely ignore what an interviewer says and go off on a tangent -

Say, you're not in power are ya?

Thomas_S_Hunterson

jim o doom wrote: »

Yeah great, the public sector do have a "responsibility" to the citizen, just like a "customer service agent" has a responsibility to "help" the customer, which is their JOBS DESCRIPTION, correct? and yet many times, through ineptitude or company policy, this doesn't happen! GASP

I love how you've ignored every other point I've made and just decided to more or less repeat your previous post.. good tactic, I've seen politicians do that; completely ignore what an interviewer says and go off on a tangent -

Say, you're not in power are ya?

This will sound very cynical, but the purpose of a customer service agent is actually to stop problems developing and costing the company any sort of serious money. They keep things out of court and stop relatively silly issues from reaching a managment level.

There's a difference between Job Description and Function when you look at things from a corporate perspective.

jim o doom

Sean_K wrote: »

Business will get things done fast if it worth their while doing so.

It is simply not profitable to invest a lot of money and time into keeping a single customer happy.


You're not comparing like with like. Compare the speed of each sector in performing it's primary function, i.e. for the corporation, to make money and for the public sector, to serve the country.

The corporation will bend over backwards to increase revenues. The public sector will bend over backwards for no-one.

I can guarantee you that if the directors of a private company were failing in their duties, the shareholders would be quick to oust them. In the public sector, there is no penalty for inefficency and thus it is rife.

So let's say at the start we have a "customer" (either citizen of ireland or customer of private company) being the starting point.

They have which does not get dealt with for reason (public service in eptitute or company policy OR stupid employee which also happens plenty)

Result = unhappy customer. WHOA SAME RESULT.

Sean_K wrote: »

It is simply not profitable to invest a lot of money and time into keeping a single customer happy.

Yeah, so those BIG tech support sections are for "one customer" & sites like paypal sucks etc, are generated by "one" customer as opposed to the literally thousands of dissatisfied customers which every company has? no.. there are a LOT of unhappy customers, but ALL their options tend to suck. (i.e. not many good broadband providers etc)

Also, it's the government that tells the civil service what to do, i.e. what's in the interest of the "public".. I haven't seen the government do that so far, in any walk of our life.

OhNoYouDidn't

Sean_K wrote: »

Busin


The corporation will bend over backwards to increase revenues. The public sector will bend over backwards for no-one.

My experience recently is the contrary.

I fundamentally do not care WHY someone is being rude, inefficient or passing the buck. I care that they are and the reason I am on the bloody phone is not getting dealt with. And if anything I find the public bodies I have to deal with to be more polite, knowledgeable and efficient.

jim o doom

Sean_K wrote: »

There's a difference between Job Description and Function when you look at things from a corporate perspective.

That doesn't sound cynical at all. In fact I believe the same thing about our government, they go where the money goes, not where the people who (moronically) voted them in to power want them to go, because the people have no power over these money hungry fecks & have so far failed to vote them out (I've done my bit and TRIED though).

The thing is we ARE NOT viewing this from the "Corporate perspective" as you put it, but from the consumers perspective. The consumer gets the same service from both bodies but there seems to be more complaint about the public side.. and most people don't view the reasons they are getting bad service the way you have been putting it down..

the just go "i've been waiting xx amount of time it's a disgrace" - they don't go "oh well you see, NTL is there to make money, not serve the customer, so I don't mind the bad service at all - but the PUBLIC service? they are there for the PEOPLE man, so I get annoyed at the times I spend waiting on them alone"...

to suggest the latter statement is how people think in general would be more or less totally insane.

Thomas_S_Hunterson

Ok you're going to have to start looking at the actions of the respective sectors in the context of their overall function.

If a private company fails to offer good customer service, it is quite probably because they don't need to do so in order to maintain profitability for their shareholders. Shareholders don't care how happy a company's customers are. They care about dividends and capital gains.

If the public sector fails to offer good service to the people of Ireland, it is failing in it's core function, to serve Ireland, which is inexcusable.

/edit: To clarify, what I am saying is that it is a lot worse for the public sector to fair in delivering to the general public than it is for the private sector

jim o doom

Sean_K wrote: »

Ok you're going to have to start looking at the actions of the respective sectors in the context of their overall function.

If a private company fails to offer good customer service, it is quite probably because they don't need to do so in order to maintain profitability for their shareholders. Shareholders don't care how happy a company's customers are. They care about dividends and capital gains.

If the public sector fails to offer good service to the people of Ireland, it is failing in it's core function, to serve Ireland, which is inexcusable.

http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=2055468908&page=1 Read post number 13 illustrating how I was issued a passport in 2 & 1/2 hours. Any time I deal with my motor tax or my PAYE it's dealt with straight away.. Where is this "inexcusable failing in it's core function of serving the citizens" that you are talking about?

Most people I know get good service from the Public service (as many posters have even put in this here thread!) and moreso in fact than I ever see from a large corporation..

jim o doom

Sean_K wrote: »

I can guarantee you that if the directors of a private company were failing in their duties, the shareholders would be quick to oust them. In the public sector, there is no penalty for inefficency and thus it is rife.

Let's say the directors of this company (Ireland) are the ministers in power. Have they failed us. A lot of people would say "yes indeed they have". Are these same people in power. Yes. So we "get the government we deserve".

Thomas_S_Hunterson

jim o doom wrote: »

http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=2055468908&page=1 Read post number 13 illustrating how I was issued a passport in 2 & 1/2 hours. Any time I deal with my motor tax or my PAYE it's dealt with straight away.. Where is this "inexcusable failing in it's core function of serving the citizens" that you are talking about?

Most people I know get good service from the Public service (as many posters have even put in this here thread!) and moreso in fact than I ever see from a large corporation..

I have always had good experiences with the public sector as well. The poor service I am talking about is the horrendous value for money and inefficiency we get (maybe service was the wrong word) /edit: in not all parts of the public sector, naturally.

nesf

parsi wrote: »

Have to say hats off to the Revenue.

Submitted our details online last week for Medical expenses and got the cheques yesterday.

The Revenue in fairness to them have made excellent progress over the past decade. It's taken me four to six months to get cheques off them in the past but I blame that more on the volume of red tape than anything else to be honest.


The Public Sector is a real mixed bag. Some parts like the Revenue have embraced modern technology and communications and made the lives of citizens far easier. Other parts, deserve the public sector stigma from what I've seen of them (i.e. everything needing to be done in person during extremely awkward hours like 9.30-4 on weekdays etc).

dathi1

The Public Sector is a real mixed bag. Some parts like the Revenue have embraced modern technology and communications and made the lives of citizens far easier. Other parts, deserve the public sector stigma from what I've seen of them (i.e. everything needing to be done in person during extremely awkward hours like 9.30-4 on weekdays etc).

I think that sums it up. When it comes to the collection of Tax revenue and the implementation of tax law, the state is 99.9% effecient.

In my experience everything else is crap.

NewDubliner

Political interference, vanity projects, pressure to hire more people to fill offices in minister's own constituencies?

Earth Worm Jim

deisebabe wrote: »

the civil service wages are extremely good...particularly when you take into account the quality of their work. They hire in consultants to do the actual work that is then passed off as the work of five of them as they have no other way to account for their hours. True story is that in one department a guy took three months to compile a relatively simple 15 page document. I cannot IMAGINE how it took so long.
Also if you step into any of their IT depts it certainly isn't the civil service doing the work. Instead its contractors costing us 450 - 500 euros a day. PS is a joke in most cases. The problem is the legit hard workers that are in there are labelled alongside the fools that shuffle along in a job that they cannot be fired from.
Oh and the "normal" civil servants will actually agree. I feel sorry for them having to put up with the incompetence that is rife in the departments.
Another thing I dont understand is paying for civil servants to do college courses and then not use them in their qualified area.........

Yeah, very true.. I have experience of this, I worked in a couple of departments as a contractor for a few contracts (IT) and I have to say its a fecking disgrace that they pay private firms thousands a week to complete work thats actualy the civil servants role/responsibility..

Though in saying that, they are just people and some very nice ones, I think its as said before, they are in a click, handy number, job for life etc and the don't need to work to deadlines or have to worry bout bosses, sacking etc. But one thing I did notice was they all look(most) tired/bored/fed up and not many are happy.. I think its the fact many are counting the days till their retirement...

Also there are many very good civil servants, who actualy get stick for working, well doing their jobs....

NewDubliner

Earth Worm Jim wrote: »

Yeah, very true.. I have experience of this, I worked in a couple of departments as a contractor for a few contracts (IT) and I have to say its a fecking disgrace that they pay private firms thousands a week to complete work thats actualy the civil servants role/responsibility..

Civil service IT staff had their morale demolished some years ago by the abolition of the distinction between IT and non IT jobs and the lack of an IT career path, further reinforced then by PMDS which favours people with generic rather than specialist skills.

Internal politics mean that CS business managers would rather splurge on consultants spouting the latest TLA's and Magic Quadrants rather than ceding any authority or repsonsibility to their own colleagues. I've seen crazy money thrown at consultants/contractors to do things that could have been done by internal staff member, if only they were allowed.

That said, the outside contractors are needed to build new systems. But, the problem is that once they're in the door, it can be difficult to get them to hand over a finished product to be maintained by internal staff. Recurring revenue streams come from maintenance and support work on programs that can only be understood by the contractor's people.

ixoy

NewDubliner wrote: »

That said, the outside contractors are needed to build new systems. But, the problem is that once they're in the door, it can be difficult to get them to hand over a finished product to be maintained by internal staff. Recurring revenue streams come from maintenance and support work on programs that can only be understood by the contractor's people.

Whose fault is that? The government's no doubt for not putting their own people in place to take over and learn but instead keep on doing what they've done. Contractors don't all just lock up the code and systems and shoot any CS who comes near it - it's up to the departments to try and get their people in and familiar with the systems.

NewDubliner

ixoy wrote: »

Whose fault is that? The government's no doubt for not putting their own people in place to take over and learn but instead keep on doing what they've done.

The government does not want specialist grades in the Civil Service as it makes pay more complicated. You're supposed to be able to switch from dog-catcher one day to database administrator the next.

ixoy wrote: »

Contractors don't all just lock up the code and systems and shoot any CS who comes near it - it's up to the departments to try and get their people in and familiar with the systems.

You don't know the game of high-end IT business consultancies and 'Professional Services' divisions of the major software vendors. It's not in their interest to play nice.

Victor

WxfrdJay wrote: »

I have a sister in law working in the Passport office and she started on €26k! That's rediculous money,If you compare it to a full-time bartender whom would take home only 30k for working 5 or 50 times harder, it seems grossly unfair.

But the bar-tender gets free drink after work and gets tips from customers. Do you really want your sister in law getting a free passport at the end of the day and direct payments from passport applicants? :eek:

What is the pay scale for someone in the passport office?

gazzer

NewDubliner wrote: »

Civil service IT staff had their morale demolished some years ago by the abolition of the distinction between IT and non IT jobs and the lack of an IT career path, further reinforced then by PMDS which favours people with generic rather than specialist skills.

Internal politics mean that CS business managers would rather splurge on consultants spouting the latest TLA's and Magic Quadrants rather than ceding any authority or repsonsibility to their own colleagues. I've seen crazy money thrown at consultants/contractors to do things that could have been done by internal staff member, if only they were allowed.

That said, the outside contractors are needed to build new systems. But, the problem is that once they're in the door, it can be difficult to get them to hand over a finished product to be maintained by internal staff. Recurring revenue streams come from maintenance and support work on programs that can only be understood by the contractor's people.

I got promoted to an IT Analyst position 5 years ago. I find it bizzare that I get the exact same pay as somebody on the same grade but who does admin work. Im not saying I should be getting loads more money but there should be at least some difference in pay to reflect the totally different types of work. I dont know why Management insist on using contractors when they have qualified CS staff to do the work. I use COBOL, SQL and UNIX in my department but I am willing and eager to learn more.

ixoy

NewDubliner wrote: »

The government does not want specialist grades in the Civil Service as it makes pay more complicated. You're supposed to be able to switch from dog-catcher one day to database administrator the next.

I'd believe that but is that not a fault of the unions? They want a nice, clean pay scale grade that is not merit or competency based. The structure of CO/EO/SO doesn't clearly allow technical skills (or more pointedly, reward them).

You don't know the game of high-end IT business consultancies and 'Professional Services' divisions of the major software vendors. It's not in their interest to play nice.

Not of all of them, but I do of some and it's not true in all cases. The government could actively try and train up its own people but it's easier for many reasons of its own, not to.

gazzer wrote:

I got promoted to an IT Analyst position 5 years ago. I find it bizzare that I get the exact same pay as somebody on the same grade but who does admin work. Im not saying I should be getting loads more money but there should be at least some difference in pay to reflect the totally different types of work. I dont know why Management insist on using contractors when they have qualified CS staff to do the work. I use COBOL, SQL and UNIX in my department but I am willing and eager to learn more.

I'd fully support a move to try and create such a position but the fact that there isn't one is surely a flaw in the way the government (and perhaps the unions) operate? I know of people who are at the same level who are at the same grade (lets say SO) - one is a paper pusher, for want of a better term, and the other an IT specialist. The former gets paid far more than the latter based on the way pay grades are rewarded by year of service and not due to skill. I don't believe it's fair and I don't believe there's the right opportunities there but I do honestly believe it's a flaw in the CS/PS service which doesn't always reward based on merit or provide good opportunities for hard workers.

Kimbot

gazzer wrote: »

I got promoted to an IT Analyst position 5 years ago. I find it bizzare that I get the exact same pay as somebody on the same grade but who does admin work. Im not saying I should be getting loads more money but there should be at least some difference in pay to reflect the totally different types of work. I dont know why Management insist on using contractors when they have qualified CS staff to do the work. I use COBOL, SQL and UNIX in my department but I am willing and eager to learn more.

I take it you work for Revenue Gazzer??
I was in there doing the exact same as you and I found it hilarious that our pay was the same as a similer named grade in the service!!

NewDubliner

ixoy wrote: »

I'd believe that but is that not a fault of the unions? They want a nice, clean pay scale grade that is not merit or competency based.

You can't absolve government. Let's remember their attack on Dublin-based IT staff as part of the 'decentralisation' swindle. But the unions are part of the problem as the majority of the members don't work in IT and quite happily went along with government proposals to strip away the IT grade status. The IT staff can't get separate representation.

ixoy wrote: »

Not of all of them, but I do of some and it's not true in all cases.

Any that don't are probably not making big money.

ixoy wrote: »

I do honestly believe it's a flaw in the CS/PS service which doesn't always reward based on merit or provide good opportunities for hard workers.

To do that you'd have to find a way to measure more than just numbers of papers pushed or 'lines of code written'.

Godge

Why do these debates always descend into arguments between public servants and private sector employees. I have worked in both and have seen efficiencies and inefficiencies in both.

However, my recent experiences have convinced me that the public sector is more efficient. I was renewing my car tax and insurance.

Five minutes online and my car tax was renewed. No quibble from me with the amount to pay as it was clearly set out on the website the basis for the charge based on the category of car, emissions, etc.. Tax disc arrived in two days.

What a difference with the insurance company. First I rang them to query the quotation as the increase seemed to have no basis. Over the phone they agreed a new amount but I wanted to see it before paying. Couldn't send by email, waited a week for post. Tried then to pay online to discover that the online payment system could only handle round euro and not cent while my quotation was an uneven amount. Took another half hour on the phone to make payment and a week for disc to arrive.

DublinWriter

Godge wrote: »

However, my recent experiences have convinced me that the public sector is more efficient. I was renewing my car tax and insurance.

Good IT is rather like a co-worker having good personal hygene - you don't notice it if it's done well and if it fails it creates a hell of a stink.

In a way it's like how the media criticised the IT profession after Y2K when the planned disasters didn't happen.

One of the things I'd highly commend Revenue for is ROS. The number of high profile IT failures that UK's Inland Revenue have had are numerous and legend.

Sadly, Revenue are the exception in IT terms within the broader public sector.

K-9

DublinWriter wrote: »

Good IT is rather like a co-worker having good personal hygene - you don't notice it if it's done well and if it fails it creates a hell of a stink.

In a way it's like how the media criticised the IT profession after Y2K when the planned disasters didn't happen.

One of the things I'd highly commend Revenue for is ROS. The number of high profile IT failures that UK's Inland Revenue have had are numerous and legend.

Sadly, Revenue are the exception in IT terms within the broader public sector.

YEP, Revenue, B-, More integration with SW needed.

SW, D+

ytpe2r5bxkn0c1

I can only judge on personal experience (anything else is heresay) and I don't work in the Public sector. I recently made a Tax return and it was sorted in double jig time. My motor tax renewal at the local offices was smooth and quick. I had a query with the County Council about stray dogs last month and it was all cleared up in less than a week. My daughter lost her passport last year and amid the panic the Passport Office were very helpful, polite and efficient - re-issuing a passport immediately to her. Great service and very efficient all round.
Lasy June a local furniture company promised delivery in August. After many phonecalls, lost dispatch papers, and visits to the store delivery was made in late December. Ryanair problems last Summer. Local supermarket branch can't seem to have stock of certain basic products available every week. Then there are Sky terms, conditions, and procedures that defy belief. Poor service certainly but also indicative of an underlying inefficiency.