Have we gone mad?

southie

http://www.irishtimes.com/newspaper/ireland/2009/0121/1232474670298.html

A DONEGAL priest is blaming “overbearing political correctness” for the removal of a tabernacle in the local hospice chapel.
The Health Service Executive has confirmed a tabernacle which had been placed there has been removed as the chapel is intended as a non-denominational space.
However, Fr James Sweeney has said its removal is “disturbing” and is appealing for the tabernacle to be replaced because of the significance it has to Catholics.
“To Catholics, the presence of the Blessed Sacrament in the tabernacle is very consoling. We must remember that the hospice is a very important place for preparing people for their final journey, in their exit from this life,” Fr Sweeney said.
“Their faith would be very important to them and it’s one of the few things that people have got at the end of their days, praying in front of the Blessed Sacrament in the tabernacle. This removal really concerns me.
“While the hospice caters for many denominations, it’s hard to understand why a prayer room could not have been found or some other small room where the Blessed Sacrament could be reserved so that all traditions could be respected.”
Fr Sweeney said he was one of the first chaplains in the hospice when it opened and there was no issue of the tabernacle being placed there.
“I have worked in other hospitals and hospices in Dublin and elsewhere as a chaplain and differences there were very easily accommodated by having a small prayer room where the tabernacle would be kept and the Blessed Sacrament reserved,” he said.
The hospice committee said they were aware of the situation but did not feel it was appropriate for them to comment.

Its like we have to bloody apologise to everyone for everything these days. whats so wrong with having our own identity and beliefs, can anyone for one second honestly believe that this would happen in any other country on earth. the Bloody HSE should deal with more important things like the offence cause to every citizen of this country by the shambles of a health service we have, the offence caused to us when we have to lie on trollies in hallways for days on end been treated like a piece of dog crap.

Biggins

In that instance, there should be alternative objects/symbols allowed depending on the congregation at the time and their particular religion.

Dudess

Good move I say. Why can't other religions be taken into consideration? It's got nothing to do with political correctness.

And no, "we" haven't gone mad.

mike65

The Health Service Executive has confirmed a tabernacle which had been placed there has been removed as the chapel is intended as a non-denominational space.

QED

Dudess

southie wrote: »

can anyone for one second honestly believe that this would happen in any other country on earth

It does. France is a particularly high-profile example.

Mingey

Dudess wrote: »

Good move I say. Why can't other religions be taken into consideration? It's got nothing to do with political correctness.

And no, "we" haven't gone mad.

Which religions? All of them?

Photi

To Catholics, the presence of the Blessed Sacrament in the tabernacle is very consoling.

What about the rest of us who find it repugnant, sanctimonious and offensive?

Biggins

I'd love to see the Scientology crowd use the church - what will they stick on the altar?
A life size doll of ET perhaps?

drunkmonkey

is Rastafarian a recoginised religion is Ireland?, the reason I ask is a Garda removed a spliff from me, I took this as total insult to my beliefs.....

tks
Bob

Nodin

If its a non-denominational chapel, then its a non-denominational chapel. Why did he go and put it in there? Is he going to lash up a few old-school crucifixes with Jesus covered in blood in a synagogue next?
And why would they have a room put aside for it, if they didn't think one was going to be there?

southie

Photi wrote: »

What about the rest of us who find it repugnant, sanctimonious and offensive?

didnt notice it said anyplace in that article that people were forced into the chapel against their will? must re read it

stovelid

Perhaps the church could provide terminally ill Catholics with a mini, belt tabernacle, - kinda like a bum-bag - to stash their own supply of Eucharist in?

IvyTheTerrible

I think it's a good move.

It's a "Prayer Room", not a Catholic Church.

Turd Ferguson

drunkmonkey wrote: »

is Rastafarian a recoginised religion is Ireland?, the reason I ask is a Garda removed a spliff from me, I took this as total insult to my beliefs.....

tks
Bob

No but with the results of the last census Jedi is now a recognised religion here. So they will also need a pic of Lea in her bikini in the hospital too. I'm sure that will have more of a healing power than a metal box anyday.

Mingey

Photi wrote: »

What about the rest of us who find it repugnant, sanctimonious and offensive?

Then I would imagine they would be avoiding the chapel.

The majority of those in hospices are old dears who are old fashioned God fearing Catholics. They worked hard in this country through the decades and paid enough taxes in their time to be looked after in whichever way they wish. Let them have their feckin tabernacle.

Turd Ferguson

Mingey wrote: »

Then I would imagine they would be avoiding the chapel.

The majority of those in hospices are old dears who are old fashioned God fearing Catholics. They worked hard in this country through the decades and paid enough taxes in their time to be looked after in whichever way they wish. Let them have their feckin tabernacle.

They'll be dead soon anyway so it wont be up for long

junior_apollo

Could you see the same being done in a muslim country for catholics?... I dont think so... when we travel to other peoples countries we respect their beliefs and do not try to impose our beliefs on those people. Why is it that the opposite happens when others come to our country?... we are expected to change our whole society for fear of offending others... they should respect our society, beliefs and structures the same as any others... totally ridiculous so tis...

Nodin

Mingey wrote: »

Then I would imagine they would be avoiding the chapel.

The majority of those in hospices are old dears who are old fashioned God fearing Catholics. They worked hard in this country through the decades and paid enough taxes in their time to be looked after in whichever way they wish. Let them have their feckin tabernacle.

Donegal has a large population of Protestants.

Mingey

Turd Ferguson wrote: »

They'll be dead soon anyway so it wont be up for long

Ed Zackery.

But the whole culture is dying out due to the sanctimonious 'celebrate multi-culturalism' brigade (who often happen to hate fordiners)

IvyTheTerrible

junior_apollo wrote: »

Could you see the same being done in a muslim country for catholics?... I dont think so... when we travel to other peoples countries we respect their beliefs and do not try to impose our beliefs on those people. Why is it that the opposite happens when others come to our country?... we are expected to change our whole society for fear of offending others... they should respect our society, beliefs and structures the same as any others... totally ridiculous so tis...

Sorry but that is rubbish. I am Irish but I am not a Catholic. I didn't just "come to the country".

There are plenty of Irish people who aren't religious Catholics.

"our whole society" is also my society, not just for the Catholic Irish

Photi

Mingey wrote: »

But the whole culture is dying out due to the sanctimonious 'celebrate multi-culturalism' brigade (who often happen to hate fordiners)

Good. About time.

drunkmonkey

Turd Ferguson wrote: »

Jedi is now a recognised religion here. So they will also need a pic of Lea in her bikini in the hospital too. I'm sure that will have more of a healing power than a metal box anyday.

Body of Christ or Lea in a Bikini, pretty much a no brainer really....

gabigeist

southie wrote: »

our own identity and beliefs

Donegal's Protestant community are probably delighted that other religions are finally being taken into account. I'm pretty sure their numbers have dwindled drastically since the 1920's when we were finally allowed to express "our own identity."
Removing tabernacles etc should even the field somewhat

Mingey

Photi wrote: »

Good. About time.

So we must lose all or much of our cultural identity, in order to accept others?

inforfun

Dudess wrote: »

It does. France is a particularly high-profile example.

And so is Holland.

partyguinness

Alot of moralising ****e being spewed here...

We are talking about a hospice....now I am sure everyone here knows what that is and maybe have been in a few...

Has anyone asked the actual patients what they feel?

Everyone else seems to be offering an opinion but I have heard none from the people that actually matter in all this. Prob being drowned out by all noise.

I am sure it gives a lot of comfort to patients in their final hours whatever religious symbols are there...the State v. Religion debate should be played out elsewhere.

junior_apollo

IvyTheTerrible wrote: »

Sorry but that is rubbish. I am Irish but I am not a Catholic. I didn't just "come to the country".

There are plenty of Irish people who aren't religious Catholics.

"our whole society" is also my society, not just for the Catholic Irish

Apologies for the misunderstanding... I am not a practicing catholic either, for my sins ... my point was that the religion of irish people in majority is catholicism (be they practicing or not...) and why they should apologise and feel that they have to hide their structures and beliefs for fear of offending other religions?...

No other religion would put up with this...

Mingey

Nodin wrote: »

Donegal has a large population of Protestants.

Do Protestants find tabernacles offensive? (I know they don't worship them like Catholics, but they are hardly offended by a box)

Nodin

junior_apollo wrote: »

Apologies for the misunderstanding... I am not a practicing catholic either, for my sins ... my point was that the religion of irish people in majority is catholicism (be they practicing or not...) and why they should apologise and feel that they have to hide their structures and beliefs for fear of offending other religions?...

...

Its not a Catholic church.

Nodin

Mingey wrote: »

Do Protestants find tabernacles offensive? (I know they don't worship them like Catholics, but they are hardly offended by a box)

I've no idea. However its not a catholic church, so why should there be a Tabernacle in it?

IvyTheTerrible

junior_apollo wrote: »

Apologies for the misunderstanding... I am not a practicing catholic either, for my sins ... my point was that the religion of irish people in majority is catholicism (be they practicing or not...) and why they should apologise and feel that they have to hide their structures and beliefs for fear of offending other religions?...

No other religion would put up with this...

Nobody is asking them to apologise. The prayer room was initially a non-denominational room, which was used primarily by a Catholic chaplain. It was a later chaplain that decided to bring in the Tabernacle. So it's not like anyone was asking them to take away something that was always there.

toiletduck

So a priest has a problem with the idea of a non-denominational chapel and that means "we've" all gone mad? Riight...

Dragan

Personally i think the priest is missing the point, or at least in my opinion. I am not a Catholic, but went through a heavily biased school system, have active Catholic parents and have studied various aspects of various religions.

The only constant that came across about the Catholic Church is the belief that "God" is everywhere, and with us at all times, that an internal prayer to God is the same thing as a prayer said in a church, or at a Holy Place.

The priest seems to be placing way too much importance on the symbolism and, to me, is putting out the message that his god is now somehow absent from that place, or that this symbolism itself is responsible for "God's" presence.

I am sure if he thought about it for two seconds, he would realise the issue here is not about the fact that his religion is losing it's footprint in the Hospice, and if he was really concerned for the affected Catholics he would remind them of exactly what i have said above.

asdasd

I'm pretty sure their numbers have dwindled drastically since the 1920's when we were finally allowed to express "our own identity."

Jesus. The utter claptrap that the typical West Brit believes. Living under the Irish republic as a protestant wass not exactly the same as the theocratic hellhole that was the UK ( for catholics) for centuries.

I wonder if there is a correlaton between the old school pro-Empire class, and the new multi-cultural class. I say i wonder, but i dont really.

However its not a catholic church, so why should there be a Tabernacle in it?

Why not. Only a fanatic would give a ****.

Mingey

Nodin wrote: »

I've no idea. However its not a catholic church, so why should there be a Tabernacle in it?

I don't know, are tabernacles only supposed to go into churches? From what I know of Catholicism, they contain the body of Christ. The religion is fiercly rich in symbolism, and while I see no point in praying to symbols myself, that doesnt mean that oldies in their last days share the same view as me. If I were to go to the prayer room to have a pray, I wouldn't direct my prayer to whatever is in that box, but to whatever it is I am praying to.

Blazer

Bloody stupid hospital.
I wonder if the muslims took charge would they allow non muslim in their hospital? or remove any Muhammad statues etc?
Not a bleedin chance.

Biggins

Dragan wrote: »

Personally i think the priest is missing the point, or at least in my opinion. I am not a Catholic, but went through a heavily biased school system, have active Catholic parents and have studied various aspects of various religions.

The only constant that came across about the Catholic Church is the belief that "God" is everywhere, and with us at all times, that an internal prayer to God is the same thing as a prayer said in a church, or at a Holy Place.

The priest seems to be placing way too much importance on the symbolism and, to me, is putting out the message that his god is now somehow absent from that place, or that this symbolism itself is responsible for "God's" presence.

I am sure if he thought about it for two seconds, he would realise the issue here is not about the fact that his religion is losing it's footprint in the Hospice, and if he was really concerned for the affected Catholics he would remind them of exactly what i have said above.

Well said. Good thought out point. Well done.

IvyTheTerrible

Mathew Reilly wrote: »

Bloody stupid hospital.
I wonder if the muslims took charge would they allow non muslim in their hospital? or remove any Muhammad statues etc?
Not a bleedin chance.

Is the hospital in Donegal a Catholic-only hospital? What do Muslims have to do with it?

partyguinness

partyguinness wrote: »

Alot of moralising ****e being spewed here...

We are talking about a hospice....now I am sure everyone here knows what that is and maybe have been in a few...

Has anyone asked the actual patients what they feel?

Everyone else seems to be offering an opinion but I have heard none from the people that actually matter in all this. Prob being drowned out by all noise.

I am sure it gives a lot of comfort to patients in their final hours whatever religious symbols are there...the State v. Religion debate should be played out elsewhere.

If people could get their head out of their asses for 2 seconds.

Any word on what the patients think of all this?

Canis Lupus

I blame the muslims personally. Always up to no good.

Dragan

partyguinness wrote: »

If people could get their head out of their asses for 2 seconds.

Any word on what the patients think of all this?

Listen mate, you posted you point, people will read it and respond if they want to. No need to go quoting yourself and telling us all we have our heads in our asses.;)

Nodin

Canis Lupus wrote: »

I blame the muslims personally. Always up to no good.

Them, liberal whingers and Romanians.

Stercus Accidit

I'm Irish, I'm not catholic, I don't want to have tallywhackers as part of my culture, so keep them to yourself, in your home or place of worship.

Fup off with your its our culture sh1te, its a religious symbol end of, and its a catholic thing, not an Irish thing, there's a difference between being Irish and being catholic, learn it.

SEPT 23 1989

Nodin wrote: »

Them, liberal whingers and Romanians.

dont forget them Jews

asdasd

SEPT 23 1989 wrote: »

dont forget them Jews

Its a chapel, which means it is Christian. The only people who could be mad about whether old Catholics get a box in their chapel are members of the DUP and earnest D4 liberals, and their ilk - the most intolerant santimous posers in history.

Mingey

What general image comes into your head with man from Saudi Arabia or a Woman from Haiti?

OldGoat

partyguinness wrote: »

If people could get their head out of their asses for 2 seconds.

Any word on what the patients think of all this?

Ahhhh now come on PartyGuinness. We all ignored your first post so what makes you think that we have any more interest in it now? Replying to your own post is kinda sad.

Edit: Damned slow fingers! Beaten to it by someone else.

Nodin

SEPT 23 1989 wrote: »

dont forget them Jews

Sure theres none of them here since St Patrick put them out....

Mathew Reilly wrote:

Bloody stupid hospital.
I wonder if the muslims took charge would they allow non muslim in their hospital? or remove any Muhammad statues etc?
Not a bleedin chance.

Its a Hospice, not a hospital. Its not a Muslim hospice. Its not a Protestant hospice. Its not a Catholic hospice.

Furthermore - Its not a Muslim chapel. Its not a Protestant chapel. Its not a Catholic chapel.

He should have asked before he put the shaggin thing in there. Then they might have said "no, but you can put it in the wee room next door".

Nodin

Mingey wrote: »

What general image comes into your head with man from Saudi Arabia or a Woman from Haiti?

Kevin Myers, talking shyte. Why?

Mingey

Well, I think of a person dressed with their head covered or Voodooism, which is a cultural identity due to the religious beliefs of their country.

I am not a religious person myself, but I'd like it if not all of our cutural ID has to do with being an inebriated pisshead.

One thing I loved about Thailand was all the Spirit Houses they had in or outside buildings. I would hate for them to be done away with, just in case some moaning berk gets offended.

CPT. SURF

Dragan wrote: »

Personally i think the priest is missing the point, or at least in my opinion. I am not a Catholic, but went through a heavily biased school system, have active Catholic parents and have studied various aspects of various religions.

The only constant that came across about the Catholic Church is the belief that "God" is everywhere, and with us at all times, that an internal prayer to God is the same thing as a prayer said in a church, or at a Holy Place.

The priest seems to be placing way too much importance on the symbolism and, to me, is putting out the message that his god is now somehow absent from that place, or that this symbolism itself is responsible for "God's" presence.

I am sure if he thought about it for two seconds, he would realise the issue here is not about the fact that his religion is losing it's footprint in the Hospice, and if he was really concerned for the affected Catholics he would remind them of exactly what i have said above.

That is a shrewd observation you have made about the priest going someway towards suggesting that the presence of God has been somewhat lessened since the removal of the tabernacle, and I believe you may have caught him out there. Although interesting in a religious and philosophical sense, it is more of an ad hoc point in this case.

The whole issue is about having a place, or a thing, that comforts certain individuals in the last days before they pass on. We are talking about the most daunting moment of our lives; and whether we like it or not, there have always been humans who seek religious comfort in their final days. It is undeniably a part of humanity, to deny so is to deny the reality of the situation.

I say let Catholic patients have their tabernacle. If their are Hindu patients who want to place a little prayer offering on the ground of the prayer room, let them do so. It can be kept to a small area where religions could interact peacefully, people might even build bridges. To remove seems cruel. I am not religious but such religious iconography would not be offensive to me in such a situation, especially considering the emotional stress of my fellow patients.