Could you still do it?

LadyJ

Now, I have always wanted to have children but lately I have had a number of discussions which have really made me view the whole idea of it in a different light. Firstly, in Ireland, one in four children will be sexually abused before the age of 17 (http://www.oneinfour.ie/about/irishstatistics/). This is almost always by someone they know or a direct family member.

Secondly, and I don't have exact stats for this one, but a lecturer of mine gave quite high statistics for babies born with some kind of birth defect, be it major or minor. Basically, there is a huge chance that something will be "wrong" with your child.

Lastly, there a countless things beyond your control that could affect your child's life and potential happiness. What if you do everything a parent should do and look after your child amazingly and, for some reason, (your death, your partner's death, bullying, mental illness etc. etc.) your child grows up to be unhappy, suicidal, a criminal etc?

Is it fair to create another life that could , in this type of world, suffer horrible pain and live through things that no one should ever have to go through? Is it just too selfish to have kids when you know how likely it is that they will be abused etc. and there is nothing you can do to stop it?

I would still love kids and I still say to myself, "Well, not my child! I'd be hyper-vigilant and very careful...", but, the fact is, many things are simply beyond my control and is it really wise for me to even contemplate deciding whether another human being should have to face this kind of world?

Just interested to know what people's thoughts are.

Phototoxin

to be honest if that's the attitude then we should just all kill ourselves*. Modern medicine can over come a lot of difficulties and comes on leaps and bounds.


*I am not condoning suicide, but if people excessively worry this is where it leads.

SeekUp

Is it fair? Well . . . the word 'fair' seems to have lost all meaning in this day and age, but the hope is that the life you create will experience great joy and happiness, and share that with others. For every 1 in 4 that's abused, there are 3 in 4 that aren't -- for every person who's unhappy or suicidal, there is another person who is the love of someone's life; another person who's working hard to make lives better for other people; another who's doing the best they can to create the best possible environment for their child.

Someone has to give birth to the person who will cure cancer!

If you think about it, just about everything outside of our immediate circles are beyond our control, things that affect us for better and for worse. There's a fairly high risk of being hit by a drunk driver. Or someone you love developing a terminal illness. The list is endless. To me, it's a mistake to live your life hedging your bets on what might happen - deciding not to do things because they might turn out badly. You weigh a decision, the good and the bad, and at the end of the day, you hope for the best outcome possible. Yes, it's a big, bad world . . . but I don't think it's selfish to create a life out of love, and to protect and care for that life as best as you can, for as long as you possibly can.

I think I just heard my clock begin to tick . . .

LadyJ

It's all fine and well to say that we should take chances and I have no problem taking chances on myself but when another person is involved it's a harder choice.

metrovelvet

All of us have parents who brought us into the world knowing that one day we would taste the bitterness of bereavement, that we would suffer heartbreak, that we would make the wrong choices, that this is a hard and tough and unforgiving world, that we would suffer. We enter the world screaming in pain ffs.

What do you want Utopia, a perfectionistic ideal before you continue life? hmnnn.... now what does that remind me of?

SeekUp

LadyJ, yes, absolutely it's a harder choice. But I don't think that having a child is reckless or anything . . . just "weighter."

Bottle_of_Smoke

For me genetic urges to have kids would outweigh the potential pitfalls outlined in the OP

banshee_bones

Lady J i have actually questioned this myself recently, but it was moreso from watching a documentary on global warming. I dont know if i would like to bring a child into the world who in their lifetime could face serious problems such as droughts,famine, etc not to mention the state of our global economy at the moment.

It is hard when you see so much death and sadness on the news each day to not be affected by it and or general scaremongering by the media. I guess all you can do is just hope for the best.

Mr. Incognito

My Son is four today and tbh, once you have a kid this debate will go out the window.

The world has always had it's risks.

It's your duty to do your best and feck them out into the worlds as your parents dis for you.

Otherwise you might never leave the house "in case it rains".

DinoBot

OP,

Mark Twain:
"Twenty years from now you will be more disappointed by the things that you didn't do than by the ones you did do. So throw off the bowlines. Sail away from the safe harbor. Catch the trade winds in your sails. Explore. Dream. Discover."

If you apply your logic to yourself would you ever fall in love, make friends, drive a car, play sports etc.

Life is not predicable and safe and each generation thinks the new generation have worse things to face then they did. Is your world so bad you would not inflict it on someone else ?

In life the destination is the journey, and nobody has the map

ChocolateSauce

If you're worried about birth defects, in Britain you can screen your embryos for these to ensure that the one you bring to term is healthy. As for abuse, if you do your best to protect a child they'll be safe.

Dades

If you know you are in a position to offer a loving home to a child it is pointless to worry about statistics. It is within your power to ensure your child doesn't become one. Not completely, but enough so that you ought not stress over it.

Life is unpredictable, but at least you have it.

And I had to lol, OP, when I saw you were mod of phobias!

Nevyn

I don't think that the current rate of child sexual abuse is as high as 1 in 4.
I do think that that rate is based on past data and you have to look at what exactly
is ment by sexual abuse and sexual assault when that data was compiled.

As for having a gentic abnormaltiy again you have to look at the fine print.
I am short sighted, that is a genetic abnormality as is being colour blind.

So again I would say don't take those numbers for granted do some deeper research.

CathyMoran

I'm hitting the magic 35 shortly and tbh the idea of trying for another kid scares me...if I could just talk to my younger self and get myself pregnant then (was with the same guy all along). I am anti-abortion so getting screened for abnormalities is useless but I would be scared of having a kid with them, if that makes any sense.

stovelid

OP is really just a more verbose version of the why would you bring kids into such a word argument discussed since time immemorial, generally by people of a certain age.

I'd hazard a guess that when the time comes to decide whether of not to have kids, the majority of people make their decision based on personal factors, not altruistic ones for the good of society or your future child.

bigstar

i have to laugh at this thread, ive never understood that debate about bringing kids into such a horrible world.i know theres lots of terrible things in the world, but theres so much good too. ask your parents if they regret bringing you into this world, resounding no id guess. by your logic, those who see the world as wrong will not have kids those who dont care will, the world will be left with only people who dont care. have kids look after them and theyll mostly look after themselves, if anything bad happens, be there for them. we are animals we are here to breed.

by the way i plan on having about ten

Queen-Mise

bigstar wrote: »

by the way i plan on having about ten

I would rear ten, but I couldn't do another 7 pregnancies, childbirths & first 2 months again. Give them to me at 8/9 weeks old & I would rear 7 children.

Yes they are horrid things in the world, my answer to this: when you were born no one gave you a contract saying the world is a nice place, sh1t happens. Life is not fair, it is never going to be fair. You enjoy all the incredible good times & the bad times make those better.

ebmma

You know, if you care so much about things like that before your child even conceived that means you'll be a great mom in my opinion :-)

Ostrom

LadyJ wrote: »

Now, I have always wanted to have children but lately I have had a number of discussions which have really made me view the whole idea of it in a different light. Firstly, in Ireland, one in four children will be sexually abused before the age of 17 (http://www.oneinfour.ie/about/irishstatistics/). This is almost always by someone they know or a direct family member.

Secondly, and I don't have exact stats for this one, but a lecturer of mine gave quite high statistics for babies born with some kind of birth defect, be it major or minor. Basically, there is a huge chance that something will be "wrong" with your child.

Lastly, there a countless things beyond your control that could affect your child's life and potential happiness. What if you do everything a parent should do and look after your child amazingly and, for some reason, (your death, your partner's death, bullying, mental illness etc. etc.) your child grows up to be unhappy, suicidal, a criminal etc?

Is it fair to create another life that could , in this type of world, suffer horrible pain and live through things that no one should ever have to go through? Is it just too selfish to have kids when you know how likely it is that they will be abused etc. and there is nothing you can do to stop it?

I would still love kids and I still say to myself, "Well, not my child! I'd be hyper-vigilant and very careful...", but, the fact is, many things are simply beyond my control and is it really wise for me to even contemplate deciding whether another human being should have to face this kind of world?

Just interested to know what people's thoughts are.

The world has always been this way, for your own good, you cant think like that

Aard

OP, I have had the exact same thoughts as you. I've been struggling with the notion of whether it is or isn't selfish to bring a child into the world. The only conclusion I've come to is that adoption is the best solution. That way, the question of whether it's right or wrong to conceive is gone out the window, and instead the focus is on the selfless act of rearing a child who may have otherwise more unfortunate circumstances.

ebmma

Aard wrote: »

OP, I have had the exact same thoughts as you. I've been struggling with the notion of whether it is or isn't selfish to bring a child into the world. The only conclusion I've come to is that adoption is the best solution. That way, the question of whether it's right or wrong to conceive is gone out the window, and instead the focus is on the selfless act of rearing a child who may have otherwise more unfortunate circumstances.

This is something I have never thought of. It does make sense.
Thank you! Pity my husband won't go for it.

Personally i can't see what the issue is. I was never abused, nor am i brain damaged. From my close circle of friends neither have they. I often wonder about these statistics and wonder where they come from, since its rare i can ever place them in my life or my experiences with other people.

Do I know physically or mentally disabled children? Yes i do. I've actually worked with them in the past, and nothing I saw would convince me not to have a child if the decision arose (there's a fair chance the decision might be made for me).. I look at my sisters kids (aged 3 & 1) and they're perfect. I look at my cousins, all three are married with children, and they have no problems. In fact, from my family or actual friends most have children, and they're all physically or mentally perfect.

So why should i bother looking at the worst? Will God single me out from my family for something to happen to my child? I dont know. But if it happens, I'll deal with it. Thats life.

LadyJ

Deleted User wrote: »

Personally i can't see what the issue is. I was never abused, nor am i brain damaged. From my close circle of friends neither have they. I often wonder about these statistics and wonder where they come from, since its rare i can ever place them in my life or my experiences with other people.

Do I know physically or mentally disabled children? Yes i do. I've actually worked with them in the past, and nothing I saw would convince me not to have a child if the decision arose (there's a fair chance the decision might be made for me).. I look at my sisters kids (aged 3 & 1) and they're perfect. I look at my cousins, all three are married with children, and they have no problems. In fact, from my family or actual friends most have children, and they're all physically or mentally perfect.

So why should i bother looking at the worst? Will God single me out from my family for something to happen to my child? I dont know. But if it happens, I'll deal with it. Thats life.

Honestly, I think you're missing the point.

Whether they ever disclose it or not, many, many children are sexually abused. Maybe some of your friends or family. You wouldn't know. You may be able to deal with things that may happen to your child but the point is that your child is really the one who will have to deal with it.

I'd like to reiterare that I still want kids. I'm just trying to set up a debate here. I think it's a very valid argument tbh and I'd like to hear some logical counter-arguments to ease my mind.

Bottle_of_Smoke

In fairness being raped raped doesn't mean your life wasn't worth living. Its something that happens, it's awful, but parents of rape victims don't go around saying "I wish we'd never had her"

LadyJ

LadyJ wrote: »

Honestly, I think you're missing the point.

Whether they ever disclose it or not, many, many children are sexually abused. Maybe some of your friends or family. You wouldn't know.

And yet they're leading happy productive lives, meeting other people as equals, getting married, buying houses, and... having children. Maybe they have been abused at some stage in their lives, as you say. But they live their life.

You may be able to deal with things that may happen to your child but the point is that your child is really the one who will have to deal with it.

And dealing with sh1te is part of life. We all experience crap in our lives which throws us back a number of steps, and we all have to come to the decision to move on with things.

But to suggest not having children simply because some might happen is silly. You're excluding your potential child from having a chance at life simply because you're afraid to live. (well, not you, but you know what i mean)

edit: I was thinking of this last night, but how do you think people in places like Palestine or Israel feel. They're faced with seeing their children possibly blown up in front of them, and yet they continue to have children.

LadyJ

Deleted User wrote: »

edit: I was thinking of this last night, but how do you think people in places like Palestine or Israel feel. They're faced with seeing their children possibly blown up in front of them, and yet they continue to have children.

Yes and if I lived in those countries and had adequate means of contraception, I most certainly would not have children.

If you had a one in four chance of getting run over by a car today, would you not just stay inside? Even if your answer is no, you'd still feel uneasy making that same decision for another human being.

The fact is that people can't seem to look at this argument objectively because the majority of us are too swung by our biological urges that we would say anything to justify them to ourselves and to others.

Bottle_of_Smoke wrote: »

In fairness being raped raped doesn't mean your life wasn't worth living. Its something that happens, it's awful, but parents of rape victims don't go around saying "I wish we'd never had her"

However, the victim might think "I wish I'd never been born".

I am fully aware that people can go on to live perfectly fine lives after abuse or rape etc. but maybe that's just not a good enough argument.

LadyJ

LadyJ wrote: »

Yes and if I lived in those countries and had adequate means of contraception, I most certainly would not have children.

If you had a one in four chance of getting run over by a car today, would you not just stay inside? Even if your answer is no, you'd still feel uneasy making that same decision for another human being.

The fact is that people can't seem to look at this argument objectively because the majority of us are too swung by our biological urges that we would say anything to justify them to ourselves and to others.

Justify the desire to live? The problem i see with your reasoning is that you're willing to remove life based on a chance. Personally, when I was younger (mid-late twenties) i had zero desire to have children, but after teaching kindergarten in China I've changed my mind completely. Children are a wonderful gift to the world, and I believe they should be given the chance to live. Let them decide for themselves how they're going to deal with problems they encounter...

LadyJ

Deleted User wrote: »

Justify the desire to live? The problem i see with your reasoning is that you're willing to remove life based on a chance. Personally, when I was younger (mid-late twenties) i had zero desire to have children, but after teaching kindergarten in China I've changed my mind completely. Children are a wonderful gift to the world, and I believe they should be given the chance to live. Let them decide for themselves how they're going to deal with problems they encounter...

It isn't removing life if life is not yet there. It's choosing not to create life. I understand how wonderful children are and the joy they bring to the world but I still feel uneasy about creating a life knowing the chances that the child would have of having the most horrible things happen to them. I don't want someone I bring into the world to have to "deal with" such things.

If you're already alive then great, deal with whatever happens and try to live a happy life but bringing someone into the world is a choice that we can make and I just think that a lot of people don't consider exactly what they are actually doing and what is actually involved in that decision.

LadyJ

LadyJ wrote: »

It isn't removing life if life is not yet there.

Ahh well, we differ there since I believe you're removing the potential for life. I'm against abortion except in rather extreme medical conditions, and your not having children simply because of a fear is tantamount to an abortion.

It's choosing not to create life. I understand how wonderful children are and the joy they bring to the world but I still feel uneasy about creating a life knowing the chances that the child would have of having the most horrible things happen to them. I don't want someone I bring into the world to have to "deal with" such things.

Uneasy? I could begin to understand if you yourself were abused, and you were afraid that by bringing a child into the world, and exposing the child to your own scars you would damage them. Or if you weren't going to have children because of a family history of serious problems in infants. But you're taking the stance of a normal person being afraid of external circumstances.

And you don't know that the child would have horrible things happen to them... You're afraid that such things might happen.

If you're already alive then great, deal with whatever happens and try to live a happy life but bringing someone into the world is a choice that we can make and I just think that a lot of people don't consider exactly what they are actually doing and what is actually involved in that decision.

I agree. Many people don't consider the implications, and how having a child will affect their lives. In fact, I believe that its impossible to know until it actually happens.

My sister came over to dinner today with her two children. One is 3 and the second is 13 months. I asked her what she thought of a argument like this thread, and she thought it was ridiculous. She and her husband are tired all the time from working and watching the kids. She's aware of the risks involved as her ears perk up at any mention of fatality or injury to children on the news. But she would never consider not having her children.... And frankly she said that nobody could begin to understand until they have children themselves.

Aard

Deleted User wrote: »

Ahh well, we differ there since I believe you're removing the potential for life. I'm against abortion except in rather extreme medical conditions, and your not having children simply because of a fear is tantamount to an abortion.

I disagree; choosing not to have a child is nothing like having an abortion. Sure, there may be potential, but she's not killing life.


That's like saying that just because I don't have a child with every woman I meet, it's like me having multiple abortions. That doesn't make sense.

Aard

Aard wrote: »

I disagree; choosing not to have a child is nothing like having an abortion. Sure, there may be potential, but she's not killing life.


That's like saying that just because I don't have a child with every woman I meet, it's like me having multiple abortions. That doesn't make sense.

Actually, in hindsight i realize I'm way off (and completely wrong) with the abortion reference. Very sorry to everyone.

Jesus Wept

The entire post was as ridiculous.

Oryx

Would you rather live a life which has hard times, or not live at all?

If you were given the opportunity to give up your life now, because maybe, just maybe, something horrible might happen to you next year, would you do it? I dont think so.

The same goes for having kids. You create them. You give them a life. You HOPE it will be as good a life as then can possilby have. You begin it as well as you can for them. And then you let them go into it. This is what we as parents do, what we always will do. A triumph of hope over experience maybe. But I would rather have any kind tough life than no life at all. Some lives may be miserable from beginning to end Im sure, but most are not. Even those that suffer through abuse, also experience love and good things. Dont throw it all away because of the bad stuff.

ebmma

Oryx wrote: »

Would you rather live a life which has hard times, or not live at all?

I don't think this really makes sense in relation to somebody who hasn't even been concieved.
A non-existant child cannot "rather live than not live at all". So it is all pretty much to the future parents to determine whether they want children or not and why.

Oryx

ebmma wrote: »

I don't think this really makes sense in relation to somebody who hasn't even been concieved.
A non-existant child cannot "rather live than not live at all". So it is all pretty much to the future parents to determine whether they want children or not and why.

I think its very relevant. Would you rather your own parents had decided not to have you, to save you the risk of potential hardship?

I have two children. My reasons for not having more, I would say are selfish really, because I dont want them, not because I fear for the lives they might have. The original argument here by LadyJ seemed to be a fear of having kids because it all might go wrong and they might have horrible lives. That potential is always there, and if we all took that attitude the human race would die out. An individual decides what they want for their life, but to rule out children not because you dont want them, but because youre afraid it might not work out is denying yourself and your children all the happiness that comes from their lives as well, and is something to consider when making the choice.

ebmma

Oryx wrote: »

I think its very relevant. Would you rather your own had parents decided not to have you, to save you the risk of potential hardship?

That is what I'm talking about. My parents decided to have me. If they didn't, I wouldn't be here having this discussion.

Noone can be upset about not being born. Because you are not born.
Unless you postulate an existance of some sort of parallel universe where unborn children can think about what would it be like to be born in our world.

My make an interesting novel though

As to the second paragraph of your post, I don't disagree with that.

trentf

people's thoughts are things in their heads.

LadyJ

Last time I tried to explain to someone on this forum that children who have never been born can't think about "all the sunsets they're missing" (I think was what was said), it ended up with me being compared to Myra Hindley so I'm not gonna even try this time.

Ebmma is making a lot of sense and I'm in full agreement.

Oryx

LadyJ wrote: »

Last time I tried to explain to someone on this forum that children who have never been born can't think about "all the sunsets they're missing" (I think was what was said), it ended up with me being compared to Myra Hindley so I'm not gonna even try this time.

Ebmma is making a lot of sense and I'm in full agreement.

I think Im also in agreement with you, Im just having trouble putting it in print here. Id never compare anyone to a child killer!