Can Women be Understood ?

LegacyUser

I'm only a man writing this ...... I stress the word "only" ! And while it doesn't keep me awake every night, I so often wonder about the mystery that is ....... women !

First let me say that I think women are fantastic, love 'em all to bits I do ..... I'm even married to one !

But I've always wondered - exactly how much do they REALLY know about men ? I mean the female species in general, not one woman in particular. I've got a few questions which I'd like some help in answering and they may illustrate where I'm going with this :-

Do women actually know everything about men ?

Are they just guessing ?

Are they really all powerful, and know every mans thoughts before he knows them himself ?

Do they correctly judge what may or may not be behind every bat of a mans eye, every wave of a hand, every look in a mans face ?

Can they really tell from 100 miles whether a mans acts, gestures or words towards them can or cannot be taken at face value ? Do they always correctly judge whether a comment such as "I like your hair that way" is to be taken as just a nice thing said to them, or do they always assume that the bit missing from the end of the nice thing to say is "and I want to have sex with you now" !

And looking at it the other way :-

Is it possible for a man to correctly read a woman ?

Can men assume that if a woman pays a man a compliment, that they actually admire the guy for whatever it is ? Or is the compliment only passed for some other selfish end of the woman ?

If a woman acts, looks or behaves herself in a certain way, can it be assumed that in doing so she is having the same set of thoughts as a man would ? e.g. personally speaking if I look excessively at a womans lips while talking to me, I've got to admit it usually means I'd like to kiss them ! Is it the same for women ?

The list goes on. But my thought is if women really do know men better than men, and if the female species in general can shield their real feelings, thoughts, emotions etc. so successfully and at will from mens view, then what chance do we as men have at all in this world ?! Even further, women appear to not only be able to shield themselves from men at will, but at the same time give out a set of signals which are the opposite to how she really feels or is thinking !

Just strikes me that women are born with far FAR superior skills in human understanding, and potentially manipulation. It really does make me feel so weak as a man, quiet vulnerable actually.

So, what do you think ?

Wibbs

OK I'l bite. For me the answer would be yes. Funny enough I can "read" them a lot easier than my fellow men for the most part. I would say ascribing behaviours or actions based on one's own behaviours and actions is a rookie mistake many make, regardless of gender. But.... interesting as this may be for some, how is this a personal issue?

Wibbs

AlwaysBaffled! wrote: »

First let me say that I think women are fantastic, love 'em all to bits I do ..... I'm even married to one !

Nice covering your arse.

Do women actually know everything about men ?

Nope. They can be equally clueless as guys, though they have little more of a grasp I would say.

Are they just guessing ?

Sometimes yes, sometimes no.

Are they really all powerful, and know every mans thoughts before he knows them himself ?

Nope, but some men are pretty basic in their emotional responses.

Do they correctly judge what may or may not be behind every bat of a mans eye, every wave of a hand, every look in a mans face ?

Can they really tell from 100 miles whether a mans acts, gestures or words towards them can or cannot be taken at face value ?

They tend to be better at social dynamics than men.

Do they always correctly judge whether a comment such as "I like your hair that way" is to be taken as just a nice thing said to them, or do they always assume that the bit missing from the end of the nice thing to say is "and I want to have sex with you now" !

Well often they would be right. They have way more experience than men as far as being approached by the opposite sex. The plainest 20 yr old woman has had more approaches and comments on her sexuality than most men have in their life, so they know men pretty well on that score. They have a built in wuss filter so pick up on that very quickly. They can spot if a guy wants to jump their bones or not. A lot of the time the woman has made her mind up yes or no in the first minutes of meeting. The guys pickup lines are often superfluous.

Is it possible for a man to correctly read a woman ?

Yes. As I say, I would be more comfortable and better at "reading" a woman, than with a fellow man

Can men assume that if a woman pays a man a compliment, that they actually admire the guy for whatever it is ? Or is the compliment only passed for some other selfish end of the woman ?

It's not that black and white. A compliment can just be a way to grease the social wheel, a "selfish" act or born of a genuine reason, or all three at once or a combination of same.

If a woman acts, looks or behaves herself in a certain way, can it be assumed that in doing so she is having the same set of thoughts as a man would ? e.g. personally speaking if I look excessively at a womans lips while talking to me, I've got to admit it usually means I'd like to kiss them ! Is it the same for women ?

Usually. IMHO among the biggest mistakes people in general make is ascribing intent, based on what they would do and how they feel. That's not restricted to women.

The list goes on. But my thought is if women really do know men better than men, and if the female species in general can shield their real feelings, thoughts, emotions etc. so successfully and at will from mens view, then what chance do we as men have at all in this world ?! Even further, women appear to not only be able to shield themselves from men at will, but at the same time give out a set of signals which are the opposite to how she really feels or is thinking !

OK easy trick. Forget about what they say, look at what they do. If I'm talking to a woman and she tells me she has a boyfriend, yet she's constantly touching me, following me around and being generally flirty, I look to that more. Does it mean she wants to bone me? Possibly. It's happened. Is she doing it for an ego boost? Possibly, that's happened too. It's not black and white as a rule.

I would say that men tend to deal in absolutes more, especially socially. Women tend to be more subtle and in control of their outward cues. Other than that we're all pretty similar.

Just strikes me that women are born with far FAR superior skills in human understanding, and potentially manipulation. It really does make me feel so weak as a man, quiet vulnerable actually.

Then learn more about them. Though as a married guy, I would suggest learn more about the one in your life. You can never fully tel what goes on in anothers mind, man or woman, but you can get a fair idea.

jim o doom

Yeah well in my personal case my OH can read me like a book 90% of the time. I can read her about 65% of the time.. maybe I'm just easy to read though
The weirdest thing for me with both women & men is when you know someone a LONG time & frequent bizzarre outbursts which have no real connection to an ongoing conversation, but made at the same time by 2 people occur frequently. Now that's weird. Like your OH rings you up out of the blue & asks/talks to you about some strange random thing you are thinking about already, when she rings you; but neither of you had been talking about said thing at all in recent times. do do do do do do do do (twilight zone music)

karen3212

No, mammy could not read your mind when you were little, she only said that to make you think she could - she probably saw you squishing that worm from the kitchen window. And no, grown women can't read men like books either. IMO only.

Macha

Whatever about the biological differences, I think women get a fair amount of training in human behaviour and relationships (of all types) from quite a young age.

All that gossiping in school and at home with mum involved a lot of analysis of people's interactions and attempts to find causes and underlying patterns. Even when I have evenings out with my girlfriends, we tend to discuss this sort of thing a lot now. And the friend with a PhD in psychology always has very enlightening contributions to make

Oryx

AlwaysBaffled! wrote: »

I'm only a man writing this ...... I stress the word "only" ! And while it doesn't keep me awake every night, I so often wonder about the mystery that is ....... women !

Weve been doing a good job on you, so.

First let me say that I think women are fantastic, love 'em all to bits I do ..... I'm even married to one !

As previously said, good PR to begin with...

Do women actually know everything about men ?

That would be a no. But I cant speak for the female population at large.:)

Are they just guessing ?

Sometimes I can tell what my oh is trying to hide, just because I know him. Not because he is a man, and Im an all-seeing woman, but because of familiarity built up over years.

Are they really all powerful, and know every mans thoughts before he knows them himself ?

I wish. But there are certain commonalities Ive noticed over time with men. As mentioned by Wibbs, you do know if a man would like to jump you. Almost immediately. And you know if he wouldnt.

Do they correctly judge what may or may not be behind every bat of a mans eye, every wave of a hand, every look in a mans face ?

Women seem to be better at picking up on the more subtle cues of body language and expression and therefore work things out in a situation quicker than a man might. That might explain some of what you come up against. But that can be a problem too, if you misinterpret something, and the poor guy hasnt a clue why youre ranting.

Can they really tell from 100 miles whether a mans acts, gestures or words towards them can or cannot be taken at face value ?

If I know someone well, I can spot when they are lying. Are you telling me men cant do this at all?

Is it possible for a man to correctly read a woman ?

There have been times when Ive thought I was being cute, only to have a man suss me out completely. Yes, men can read women very well ime.

Can men assume that if a woman pays a man a compliment, that they actually admire the guy for whatever it is ? Or is the compliment only passed for some other selfish end of the woman ?

Sometimes its genuine. Sometimes not. Such is life Im afraid. Best thing is to accept it as genuine anyway. Wheres the harm?

If a woman acts, looks or behaves herself in a certain way, can it be assumed that in doing so she is having the same set of thoughts as a man would ? e.g. personally speaking if I look excessively at a womans lips while talking to me, I've got to admit it usually means I'd like to kiss them ! Is it the same for women ?

No. It could mean youve got something in your teeth. There is no such thing as a 100% accurate assumption with anyone, male or female I think. The one time you think youre on solid ground with an assumption could be the time you get your face slapped.

Just strikes me that women are born with far FAR superior skills in human understanding, and potentially manipulation. It really does make me feel so weak as a man, quiet vulnerable actually.

In my experience both sexes are complex, and to say one or the other gender has fixed characteristics is being too rigid. I know I tend to be emotional, but so can my oh, at times. In a row, he usually gets the better of me, as he can be very rational and quote facts, which ties me in a knot. Yes, sometimes as a woman I have ways and means of getting my own way. Does that make my oh weak? No. Long term couples develop behaviours that are like a dance, a way of behaving with each other they are used to. Its part of that.

If you feel weak as a man, then that is within you. Noone else makes us feel anything. We do that to ourselves.

metrovelvet

No I wouldnt say women get it right all the time at all. But I do think they are more practised in reading and picking up signs.

My own opinion on this, which is not backed up by any kind of study, is that it is yet another arm in nature's sinister plot.

Motherhood forces you to listen more carefully, to look more closely, smell more acutely, to intuit more precisely because you have this being which can't speak. Now, my guess is that [and im sure the daddy's right brigade will jump all over me for this, but you cant change centuries of evolution in 30 years] we may be predisposed to quicker training in these things.

This is not to say that there aren't men who are also very literate in reading women, but as a general rule I think women have the upper hand here. But imperfectly so.

And I would add that having to be devious also is tied in with this. Now I have been accused many many times before I had a child of being conniving, but let me tell you the amount of trickery and distraction I have to resort to with my toddler beggars belief.

Earthhorse

AlwaysBaffled! wrote: »

Just strikes me that women are born with far FAR superior skills in human understanding, and potentially manipulation. It really does make me feel so weak as a man, quiet vulnerable actually.

One of the greater myths to ever be peretuated about the genders is that women have this far superior ability to tell what's going on in someone's head. In my experience, this is anything but the truth. But there is self fulfilling prophecy and evidence selection bias at play - the more people talk about it the more they find the evidence to confirm it and every time they do get it right they'll attribute it to women's intuiation rather than common sense, gut and experience, which is most of what judging a person's state of mind is down to.

Wibbs wrote: »

You can never fully tel what goes on in anothers mind, man or woman, but you can get a fair idea.

This is the bottom line. You can't every fully know what's going on in someone's head; even your own. You just have to make an educated guess and marry it with their actions to see what's what. More often, I will find women assume they know someone's state of mind without ever finding the evidence to confirm that. They know such and such was upset over such and such, the just do, but if you actually talk to such and such you'll find out they were wrong.

Oryx wrote: »

Noone else makes us feel anything. We do that to ourselves.

If no one else could make us feel anything we wouldn't be human. People can make us feel all sorts of things but if there's a persistent feeling lingering in us then that is more likely to do with us than the people around us.

Oryx

Earthhorse wrote: »

If no one else could make us feel anything we wouldn't be human. People can make us feel all sorts of things but if there's a persistent feeling lingering in us then that is more likely to do with us than the people around us.

Our feelings are our own and are not imposed on us by anyone. Someone elses actions will provoke something within us, either good or bad, but that is all about us, not the other person. Our feelings on any situation are what our own mind creates, based on our personality, temperament, conditioning and mood. Which is why sometimes you can shrug off a cutting remark, and other times it makes you cry. Its your own internal decision of how to deal with circumstances around you.

For example. A man tells you he loves you. You could feel warm and fuzzy. You could feel loving in return. You could feel shock, or fear. Or simply indifferent. None of that has to do with the other person, what they have done remains the same. Its your feelings that can can differ. So in reality they havent caused your feelings. You have.

Its an important distinction, especially in difficult situations where hurt is involved. Its very empowering in those cases to realise you control how you feel about someones actions. They arent causing anything, you are in charge of how you feel.

Earthhorse

That's a grand philosophy, and one I happen to agree with, but it isn't the whole truth. The idea that we are in total control of how we feel is a nice theory but in practise only the most dedicated of meditators will achieve that state. The truth is that things that happen in your life, often things initiated by people, will effect your emotional state.

A girl I know was dumped by her boyfriend of 10 years. She was devestated, naturally. But she got on with her life. No second chances for him. She learnt how to go out again. Got back on her feet. Got her confidence together. Now she's happily involved with another man. So she chose how to handle that situation in the long run but in the short run she was the victim of his actions toward her (and yes you could argue that was based on her initial feelings of love for him but that ends up being completely reductionist). She hid it well but she was obviously quite upset - uncontrollably so at times - at what he'd done.

So we aren't in charge of our emotions, not entirely, but we are capable of giving them direction and energy and it's important not to build entire personalities, especially disorderly ones, out of them. But that's all rather off topic anyway, isn't it? Women would know what to do in a situation like this.

johnnyskeleton

AlwaysBaffled! wrote: »

If a woman acts, looks or behaves herself in a certain way, can it be assumed that in doing so she is having the same set of thoughts as a man would ?

Yeah - for example, a male PI mod is just as likely to dump threads in the Humanities forum as a female PI mod.

Just strikes me that women are born with far FAR superior skills in human understanding, and potentially manipulation. It really does make me feel so weak as a man, quiet vulnerable actually.

When women have their first son, they realise an important truth. Give a boy a football, a sandwich and a juice and he'll happily run around entertaining himself until he falls asleep. The same applies to adult men, except their juice needs to be fermented a bit for a while.

Women, on the other hand, have all sorts of things and stuff that they want. While they don't understand why men want only footballs, food and juice, the concept is easily delineated and readily implemented. The difficulty for men is twofold - 1) what women want is not easily discernible and 2) what women want is constantly changing. Even if we could overcome these obstacles we still probably wouldn't be able to understand them, and it is uncertain as to whether we could actually fulfill them.

As regards manipulation, I think you're wrong. Both men and women change each other. For example, girlfriends will sometimes alter their music tastes, political opinion and sense of humour based on their boyfriends preferences. Equally, girlfriends sometimes have a strong influence on their boyfriend's behaviour, presentation and work ethic. Manipulate is a bit misleading, it's more like people influence each other, and make concessions.

994

johnnyskeleton wrote: »

When women have their first son, they realise an important truth. Give a boy a football, a sandwich and a juice and he'll happily run around entertaining himself until he falls asleep. The same applies to adult men, except their juice needs to be fermented a bit for a while.

Women, on the other hand, have all sorts of things and stuff that they want. While they don't understand why men want only footballs, food and juice, the concept is easily delineated and readily implemented. The difficulty for men is twofold - 1) what women want is not easily discernible and 2) what women want is constantly changing. Even if we could overcome these obstacles we still probably wouldn't be able to understand them, and it is uncertain as to whether we could actually fulfill them.
.

I think this is very untrue, you're basically saying men are animals with animal needs - is it any different to what colonialists used to write about Africans? As if no man had ever pursued love, or poetry, or science, philosophy, love, art, literature, exploration. "Hath not a man eyes?" etc.

Society trains men not to express their emotions - boys quickly learn that other men dont like it and women absolutely hate it. (see "Wuss" comment above) If a man tells you "give me football, boobs and beer and I'm happy", he's probably lying, it's a learned response that you eventually start to believe.

I think that part of the reason women do so well with regard to spotting liars is that girls are a lot less loyal to their friends than boys are.

metrovelvet

994 wrote: »

I think that part of the reason women do so well with regard to spotting liars is that girls are a lot less loyal to their friends than boys are.

Both men and women are programmed to deceive others and to block out signs which lead to dissillusionment.

Fascinating article from NY Times Science Supplement.

http://www.nytimes.com/2008/12/23/science/23angi.html

Macha

994 wrote: »

I think this is very untrue, you're basically saying men are animals with animal needs - is it any different to what colonialists used to write about Africans? As if no man had ever pursued love, or poetry, or science, philosophy, love, art, literature, exploration. "Hath not a man eyes?" etc.

Society trains men not to express their emotions - boys quickly learn that other men dont like it and women absolutely hate it. (see "Wuss" comment above) If a man tells you "give me football, boobs and beer and I'm happy", he's probably lying, it's a learned response that you eventually start to believe.

I think that part of the reason women do so well with regard to spotting liars is that girls are a lot less loyal to their friends than boys are.

I was nodding along to your post until I got to the last sentence. You strongly object to the pidgeonholing of men as emotionless animals and note how society trains them to act a certain way. And then you go and do the exact same thing against women...!

allabouteve

994 wrote: »

I think this is very untrue, you're basically saying men are animals with animal needs - is it any different to what colonialists used to write about Africans? As if no man had ever pursued love, or poetry, or science, philosophy, love, art, literature, exploration. "Hath not a man eyes?" etc.

Society trains men not to express their emotions - boys quickly learn that other men dont like it and women absolutely hate it. (see "Wuss" comment above) If a man tells you "give me football, boobs and beer and I'm happy", he's probably lying, it's a learned response that you eventually start to believe.

I think that part of the reason women do so well with regard to spotting liars is that girls are a lot less loyal to their friends than boys are.

I would agree with most of this, although the men I know have no problem expressing their emotions, they wouldn't be as open about it as women. I've never been fooled by the balls/beer/boobs claim, and most men aren't either.

As for women being less loyal - not the case, of that I'm sure. In my experience, I've never had a single boyfriend who hasn't had at least one ''good friend'' who tried it on with me. Never worked mind.

johnnyskeleton

994 wrote: »

I think this is very untrue, you're basically saying men are animals with animal needs - is it any different to what colonialists used to write about Africans?

Yes it's very different. I'm a man talking about men. I'm not looking down on men as inferior. At the end of the day, my needs are pretty simple. That is not to say that I don't have emotions and such, it just means I'm able to deal with them and don't have a need to go on about them.

994 wrote: »

As if no man had ever pursued love, or poetry, or science, philosophy, love, art, literature, exploration. "Hath not a man eyes?" etc.

I think you'll find that love, poetry, science, philosophy, love (again), art, literation and exploration are often just means to an end. I'm quite freudian in that belief.

994 wrote: »

Society trains men not to express their emotions - boys quickly learn that other men dont like it and women absolutely hate it. (see "Wuss" comment above) If a man tells you "give me football, boobs and beer and I'm happy", he's probably lying, it's a learned response that you eventually start to believe.

Well if they are learned responses that we eventually start to believe, then we are not lying when we say we want them. So which is it?

There is nothing wrong with learned responses - you have to learn to speak a language before you can write poetry, you have to learn to walk before you can explore, you have to learn right or wrong before you can fight for what is right. You can equally reject your learned behaviour if you are sufficiently intelligent. But I think you are grossly underestimating the brilliance of the male mind that we can be happy with football boobs & beer (not necessarily in that order). It's as if we have learned how to achieve nirvana, and can cast aside our worldly woes to focus on what is truly important.

994 wrote: »

I think that part of the reason women do so well with regard to spotting liars is that girls are a lot less loyal to their friends than boys are.

Or they get lied to a lot more!

johnnyskeleton

allabouteve wrote: »

I would agree with most of this, although the men I know have no problem expressing their emotions, they wouldn't be as open about it as women.

I don't see why you have to talk about emotions to have them, nor do I see anything wrong with not expressing your emotions.

allabouteve wrote: »

I've never been fooled by the balls/beer/boobs claim, and most men aren't either.

What do you mean by that?

allabouteve wrote: »

As for women being less loyal - not the case, of that I'm sure. In my experience, I've never had a single boyfriend who hasn't had at least one ''good friend'' who tried it on with me. Never worked mind.

Maybe your boyfriends were so loyal that they would share anything with their friends!