UPC: get off my land?

BeerNut

I'm a UPC customer and have recently been doing some work on the house including digging up the front yard. From what I can see, three UPC cables come off the street, under my yard and up into my attic. One supplies me; one supplies the house attached to mine; but the third runs out of the house at the roofline, over my back garden and supplies the house behind me. This cable running over my garden is a pain and I'd like not to have it.

I'm considering cancelling my UPC subscription altogether in the near future. When doing so I will be asking UPC to remove their cable from above my back garden. If they don't within a reasonable period of the contract ending, am I within my rights to disconnect the wire, wind it up and leave it neatly on the back garden wall?

It seems that NTL gave my predecessor in the house free cable, presumably for allowing this cable run. UPC T&Cs put them under no obligation to do so for me, but I was wondering if anyone has any experience of them doing this. Are they likely to offer me free TV if I agree to leave the cable alone?

watty

If it is there more than 5 years or a previous owner gave permission, you may have trouble getting rid of it.

Elmo

BeerNut wrote: »

It seems that NTL gave my predecessor in the house free cable, presumably for allowing this cable run. UPC T&Cs put them under no obligation to do so for me, but I was wondering if anyone has any experience of them doing this. Are they likely to offer me free TV if I agree to leave the cable alone?

My sister has the same issue and has free cable from UPC but this dates back to before NTL. I think it was a Cablelink deal. She has never contacted them to make sure she should get free cable. They would possible only give you free basic TV.

I'm a UPC customer and have recently been doing some work on the house including digging up the front yard. From what I can see, three UPC cables come off the street, under my yard and up into my attic. One supplies me; one supplies the house attached to mine; but the third runs out of the house at the roofline, over my back garden and supplies the house behind me. This cable running over my garden is a pain and I'd like not to have it.

I am sure they could run a wire into the front of the house to the back of yours and move the wires over to the other side of the wall for your other neighbours. Of course this is Cablelink/NTL/UPC.

Maybe you should contact your neighbours.

ttm

watty wrote: »

If it is there more than 5 years or a previous owner gave permission, you may have trouble getting rid of it.

Thats understandable but if there was a fault and the OP no longer had any UPC contract himself would he be oblidge to allow UPS staff into his property or even his house to fix or check for damaged cable?

Elmo

I think they should have a network manager to contact about this issue. Customer Care won't know what your talking about and sales never give you anyones number and the pass you through to Customer Care, hence clogging up the wait times for people with customer care issues.

They still haven't heard of Email. but you could try Customer.Support@upc.ie

watty

ttm wrote: »

Thats understandable but if there was a fault and the OP no longer had any UPC contract himself would he be oblidge to allow UPS staff into his property or even his house to fix or check for damaged cable?

I'm afraid so once a way leave is given.

BeerNut

Thanks for the comments everyone. And I've just noticed something similar came up a while back (here).

It looks like the way forward is to keep my UPC account live and get the cables arranged to my satisfaction, and then cancel the sub. If they won't move the wire in the back garden I'll start asking for proof of their right to have it there.

Watty, I'm very interested in the way-leave thing as it seems at odds to what I know of Irish property law. There is no automatic right of way in Ireland, and as far as I'm aware no law that states UPC can keep using my garden without my permission. Have you any further reading on the matter?

watty

There is no automatic right, but if the previous owner gave them a right or they have been there sufficient time, then they may now have a right.

However you best seek real legal advice. I'm an Engineer.

BeerNut

watty wrote: »

However you best seek real legal advice. I'm an Engineer.

So what follows is some legal musings on my part, in the interests of discussion, rather than a pugilistic refutation of your points:

watty wrote: »

There is no automatic right, but if... they have been there sufficient time, then they may now have a right.

But that's exactly what an automatic right is: a default, statute-of-limitations, you-didn't-say-anything-so-now-you're-pwned sort of right that would give UPC access to my back garden just because I never told them to get out. This sort of thing does not happen in Irish law as I understand it. If anyone can show me where it does, I'd be grateful. You don't get wayleave rights simply by trespassing long enough, or even by having permission for long enough.

watty wrote: »

if the previous owner gave them a right

If this is the case -- if they can produce the crumbly bit of paper where Mr Deadguy said Cablelink can string a cable across his garden in perpetuity -- then the solicitor who did my conveyancing is in doo-doo. This sort of contract should be registered against the property and show up in a legal search. If it didn't, and UPC produce it, then I'll have several things to talk to my solicitor about, one being just how binding that bit of paper is.

Irishdudedave

Just my input:

I'd ring UPC...explain that you dont necessarily want the cables removed, just arranged more to your liking.If they dont then threaten legal action.

As bad and all as UPC are with cases like this I believe they would try to accomodate your request before bringing legal cases on themselves...

watty

BeerNut wrote: »

If this is the case -- if they can produce the crumbly bit of paper where Mr Deadguy said Cablelink can string a cable across his garden in perpetuity -- then the solicitor who did my conveyancing is in doo-doo. This sort of contract should be registered against the property and show up in a legal search. If it didn't, and UPC produce it, then I'll have several things to talk to my solicitor about, one being just how binding that bit of paper is.

Mwhahha!

I could tell you stories about solicitors. But not here, not in writing Not hearsay either.

I know a hotel where the Police came one day and closed the bar. The solicitor never transferred/renewed drinks licence when my friend bought it. They had to apply as if it was a new Premises. Serious upgrade costs to a place dating back to the 17th Cent.

Dardania

BeerNut wrote: »

You don't get wayleave rights simply by trespassing long enough, or even by having permission for long enough.

I'd say a call to Pat Kenny is in order - he'd love to hear about it!

BeerNut

Adverse possession is different. If UPC wanted to claim they own a strip of my garden, 50mm wide by 40m long, they'd have to claim that I abandoned it. And I can show that I walk across it everyday when I go to get my bike out of the shed.

pa990

Dardania wrote: »

I'd say a call to Pat Kenny is in order - he'd love to hear about it!

ROFL

seamus

BeerNut wrote: »

If anyone can show me where it does, I'd be grateful. You don't get wayleave rights simply by trespassing long enough, or even by having permission for long enough.

I have read the relevant statutes, though I have no idea what keywords to use.

It's basically a contract between yourself and the service provider which cannot be terminated without the express permission of both parties to the contract. The contract doesn't need to be written and is "attached" to the title deed of the house.

Try a search on boards for "wayleave", it may turn up a good thread that quoted legislation and all.

BeerNut

seamus wrote: »

The contract doesn't need to be written and is "attached" to the title deed of the house.

That doesn't seem to be what this solicitor says:

The right is created by way of a legally executed deed and is sometimes simply contained within a larger deed such as a lease. This deed shall confirm the identity of the person granting the wayleave and to whom the benefit of that deed shall be conferred and should specifically state what exact right is being conferred and over what exact property ... In a legal transfer of property wayleaves affecting the property must be disclosed by the vendor to the purchaser

And just to reiterate: this is just me indulging in law geekery. I will be pursuing this with UPC directly in the first instance and hopefully everythnig will get sorted out before the law gets involved. Either way, I'll report back here (which nobody in the other threads seems to do).

milltown

A few years back my old man had a protracted row with NTL. He wouldn't pay the bill until they fixed the reception basically. After many letters and final demands they arrived out a few times to cut off the service and were told each time that they were trespassing and had no permission to put a ladder up the side of the house to get at the junction box.

Then one day they arrived when only my little sister was there, who knew no better, and told them to go ahead. My dad flipped when he got home and rang them up, read them the riot act and told them to either reconnect it and fix the reception, or he was pulling all their wires and boxes off the house (which luckily fed the whole road with cable, advantage dad!). They said he couldn't do that to their property it was criminal damage. He said he'd do what he liked as long as it was on his property and gave them an hour to get back to him.

The hour came and went quietly so my dad goes up the ladder with snips and crowbar and makes good on his threat. Ten minutes later Mr.NTL arrives to see wtf, words are exchanged and he says he's off to the Gards to report the criminal damage. My dad rang the station and explained and was told he can do whatever he likes on his own property and NTL would be told the same.

Epilogue: Three vans arrived out the next day to fix the cables back in place and rewired every connection in the house.

Elmo

milltown wrote: »

Epilogue: Three vans arrived out the next day to fix the cables back in place and rewired every connection in the house.

Did they fix the cables back on to your father's house?

How does this work for Eircom?

milltown

Yes they did. It's a corner house feeding in three directions so it must have been easier just to put them back than to reroute them and remove his ammo for the next battle.

BeerNut

milltown wrote: »

The hour came and went quietly so my dad goes up the ladder with snips and crowbar and makes good on his threat.

If I did that (not that I've any intention of doing so) they'd be entitled to sue me under the terms of my contract with them. Though I'd have thought it was a different story if our contract had lapsed at any point.

Solair

To be quite honest, I don't really agree with this stuff at all.
If Chorus NTL / UPC install wiring and it isn't really doing any damage to your house, I can't see what the fuss is about. It's only a bit of coax, and it's usually neatly done.

If they've created a total eye sore, or if they've damaged your property or your garden, I can understand the argument. But, if it's just a little bit of coax and a cable tap clipped into your facia boards, big deal!

It beats having them dig up the entire road.

In city centre locations, it's quite common for eircom, NTLChorus, and possibly even ESB cables to be tacked along (usually neatly).

One of my relatives lives in a city centre location in Cork and there are ESB cables running from house to house along their property.

If UPC are prepared to deal with people reasonably, I don't really see why they shouldn't cross property.
I can understand someone being annoyed if they try mounting a huge amp on your wall or something, but other than that, I really don't understand the enormous fuss.

From what I've seen around Ireland's urban areas, the worst offender for ugly wiring is ESB Networks. Some of the overhead installations that they have are just hideous. I have never understood why councils haven't been able to force them to underground these wires purely for aesthetic reasons.

BeerNut

Solair wrote: »

if it's just a little bit of coax and a cable tap clipped into your facia boards, big deal!

Agreed. But it isn't clipped to the fascia boards, in my case.

Solair wrote: »

but other than that, I really don't understand the enormous fuss.

It's not an enormous fuss. It's a fuss proportionate to the amount of bird poo that lands on the laundry hung on a line underneath the NTL cable.

Elmo

BeerNut wrote: »

Agreed. But it isn't clipped to the fascia boards, in my case.

It's not an enormous fuss. It's a fuss proportionate to the amount of bird poo that lands on the laundry hung on a line underneath the NTL cable.

Perhaps you should move your line

I think a wire going across the garden is a bit much regardless of how neatly it is on the house. And it generally not the home owner who cause the fuss but the company themselves. "Oh! we can't move that, no, no, no, no, no.... I am sorry..... couldn't do that etc." All they have to do is move the wire.

carbsy

BeerNut wrote: »

It's not an enormous fuss. It's a fuss proportionate to the amount of bird poo that lands on the laundry hung on a line underneath the NTL cable.

haha that would drive me nuts! Good luck with your case and keep us updated.

BeerNut

An update on this:

I got in touch with UPC and a couple of weeks later there was a card through my letterbox saying someone had been out and I should call to schedule an appointment. This I did, and this afternoon, at precisely the agreed time, a chap arrived out to look at the arrangement.

His reaction to the cable running across the garden was "Ah jaysis, you don't want that there." He wants to take it down and clip it to the garden wall, which is fine by me. So he's gone off to make arrangements with my neighbour at the other end of the cable. If that goes OK, he'll do the re-routing work.

So far, so good.

altered121

Hi Op, the key is when You said I am a upc customer. by getting connected You have given them wayleave. Wayleave in Ireland is a little strange in that cable operators usually do not enforce their rights ( poss to avoid bad publicity) once a customer signs or agress to recieve service then way leave is granted and continues even after they cease to be a customer.

( yes, I am am sure before the usual debates start.)

BeerNut

"Yes I am sure your honour". :P

altered121 wrote: »

way leave is granted and continues even after they cease to be a customer.

But surely once the contract which says:

you hereby grant rights over your land, buildings and premises (your land) as are necessary for us to provide the Services to you and our other customers in fee simple in perpetuity or for any lesser estate you have in your land to us (including our employees and authorised representatives), successors and assigns to the ntl Network

is terminated, that wayleave, a term of the same contract, ends too.

Doesn't "in perpetuity" make a nonsense of the whole concept of contract law? If not, why not.

bobbbb

There was a telephone pole in my parents garden and they asked Eircom to get rid off it. They told them no way and that they would be sued if they removed it themselves.

One day i got the old chainsaw out and savaged the pole. I parked the car over where it used to be too, just in case. About 3 hours later Eircom were out knocking on the door. My Dad just said, it wasnt me, now fuk off. They huffed and puffed and sent letters etc.

Nothing ever came of it. He just kept the car parked over where it used to be for a while. That was 5 years ago.

If you have poles or wires on your land that are above ground and annoying you, just get a relative to destroy them and say it wasnt you. And tell them they have to oay you to get on your land after that. If they do get it back get someone to destroy it again.

icdg

Okay, can we have less of the encouraging people to commit wanton damage to property in this thread, or it will have to be closed.

BeerNut

Just to be on the safe side, MrsBeerNut rang them this afternoon to discuss the finer points of wayleaves and contract law. It took a while for them to find someone willing to talk about wayleaves and contract law, but they did.

He told her:

• That the wayleave would expire along with the contract
• That the call was being recorded and he was prepared to stand over any statements he made in it
• His name

So she's happy, and she's far more likely to have to deal with the legalities of selling the house after I snuff it than the other way round, so I'm happy too.

rubadub

icdg wrote: »

Okay, can we have less of the encouraging people to commit wanton damage to property in this thread, or it will have to be closed.

Who mentioned wanton damage? people talked of damaging stuff alright but not "wantonly". Wanton damage would be chainsawing down a telephone pole on the side of a remote road for no reason whatsoever, just pure vandalism.

BeerNut

As the OP I'd prefer if this discussion stayed inside the bounds of the law and didn't get closed, thanks.

XxjustepicxX

Hello guys I just bought a house and i want upc installed but the previous owners didnt want the cable going through the garden so im not on their network.. UPC was saying they would try but nobody ever came to put me on the system has anybody got some advice please....
Very much appreciated