Proposed All-Ireland Road Numbering System

Typewriter

Came across this site...

http://www.wesleyjohnston.com/roads/renumbermotorwayproposals.html

Appendix - An all-Ireland Numbering System
The above numbering scheme would not only greatly simplify the motorway system for drivers in Northern Ireland, but it would also be relatively easy to change it to an all-Ireland numbering system if the two authorities decided this was the right course of action to take. On such a small island, this makes sense from a traffic management point of view, but it is clear that the issue is more complex than this! The discussion below is from a purely traffic management perspective.
In such a scenario, the only duplicate motorway numbers are the M1 and M3 which are used for different motorways north and south of the border. As the M3 in Northern Ireland is so small, it should be subsumed into zone 1 and designated M13. This would be easy for motorists to handle, as it simply requires the insertion of a '1' into the existing number. This would solve one of the two duplication problems.
The two M1's could remain in co-existance for a longer time than this but, with a possible upgrade of the A1 in mind, there could come a point when the M1 would run from Belfast to Lisburn, then south along the A1 and on to Dublin. In this scenario, the portion of the existing Northern M1 from Lisburn to Dungannon would be re-designated the M10, itself quite a prestigious number. As Ireland's first motorway, the Northern M1 has already secured its place in history.

It is thus proposed that under an all-Ireland numbering system, the M3 at Belfast become the M13, the M1 from Belfast be redirected south along the A1 and the remainder of the northern M1 become the M10. This would create a fully integrated all-island numbering system with no duplication and with minimal confusion to travellers. No numbers at all would have to change in the Republic, unless the NRA ignored proposal 4 above, and except for a possible renumbering of junctions on the Irish M1.

amacachi

Don't really see a need for this.

L1011

That was written some time ago, we're going to have a duplicate M2 also...

Typewriter

With regards to the M1/A1 it makes sence.

corktina

amacachi wrote: »

Don't really see a need for this.

I agree, what purpose would it serve? surely people should know which country they are in?

ardmacha

I agree, what purpose would it serve? surely people should know which country they are in?

Why should people not be able to follow a single route number along a journey without arbitrary changes, geography rather than politics would be useful guide for such things.

L1011

If NI signed Euroroutes that'd be that problem solved for the sole route that plan unifies...

murphaph

ardmacha wrote: »

Why should people not be able to follow a single route number along a journey without arbitrary changes, geography rather than politics would be useful guide for such things.

Better tell all those Europeans then. No unified numbering system even in the Benelux countries. Euroroutes are nowhere near comprehensive but are useful for long distance traffic. They'd be of practically no use for north-south numbering as only one eurorote actually crosses the border!

Pisser Dignam

All-island integration aside, the numbering method used in the Republic and Scotland would be far more appropriate in NI. Its current English-style system, as well as being outdated, defies common sense.

Cool Mo D

Em, Scotland's numbering system is part of the wider British numbering system, with A and B roads and separately numbered Ms, which NI's system is based on. It is nothing like the Irish system.

L1011

Cool Mo D wrote: »

Em, Scotland's numbering system is part of the wider British numbering system, with A and B roads and separately numbered Ms, which NI's system is based on. It is nothing like the Irish system.

Scotland has M number inheritance, not seperately numbered roads. They don't renumber the A road when the M replacement is built but it always takes its number.

icdg

Cool Mo D wrote: »

Em, Scotland's numbering system is part of the wider British numbering system, with A and B roads and separately numbered Ms, which NI's system is based on. It is nothing like the Irish system.

NI's system is only based on Britain's in its very basics - motorways M or A()M, other roads A or B. But whereas GB has an elaborate system of zones for numbering roads, NI....made it up as they went along. Apparently. No one from the Department for Regional Development or Roads Service seems to know how they came up with the numbers.

Even our system of numbering roads makes more sense than NIs....

But as to an all-Ireland numbering system, I don't think so, if only on the grounds that it would possibly annoy a lot of unionists over what is a comparatively trivial topic.

ardmacha

NI road numbering could do with an overhaul and if this were to happen it would make sense to integrate it to some extent with the rest of the island. The national primary national secondary approach is a useful one. But in the overall scheme of things it isn't exactly a priority, even in things that need to be coordinated cross border.

murphaph

MYOB wrote: »

Scotland has M number inheritance, not seperately numbered roads. They don't renumber the A road when the M replacement is built but it always takes its number.

That's a fluke more than a plan and the main artery south to England (M74/A74(M)) was always supposed to be the M6 and many signs have the M6 number hidden under the 'temporary' A74(M)/M74 numbers. When the gap in the M6/M74 is closed it may yet be numbered M6 from the M1 to Glasgow but scottish nationalism being on the rise may put paid to that.

Northern Ireland's 'system' is not based on anything at all like the British system which uses 'zones'. NI's even has duplicate A road numbers in different parts of the province. It's a complete and utter mess from a planners point of view but so long as the maps match the road signs, the ordinary user is none the wiser. Road numbers aren't used in NI as frequently as in GB when navigating. In fact, I'd say the RoI will overtake NI in road number usage in the future.

Cool Mo D

MYOB wrote: »

Scotland has M number inheritance, not seperately numbered roads. They don't renumber the A road when the M replacement is built but it always takes its number.

This is pretty much the same as in England. The most important English motorways, the M1, M2, M3, M4, and M6, (although not the M5) were all built to serve similar routes as the A1, A2, A3, A4 and A6. Scotland also has some brand new motorways that didn't have existing A routes.

murphaph

Cool Mo D wrote: »

This is pretty much the same as in England. The most important English motorways, the M1, M2, M3, M4, and M6, (although not the M5) were all built to serve similar routes as the A1, A2, A3, A4 and A6. Scotland also has some brand new motorways that didn't have existing A routes.

It's a fluke. The motorway numbering system is totally independent of the A road system. It just happens these roads have sort of similar routes though the M1 is not really analogous to the A1 in fairness. The M1 was never intended to go any further north than Sheffield.

Pisser Dignam

Cool Mo D wrote: »

Em, Scotland's numbering system is part of the wider British numbering system, with A and B roads and separately numbered Ms, which NI's system is based on. It is nothing like the Irish system.

Re-read the thread. If you must butt in, make sure you know what you're talking about first.

L1011

Cool Mo D wrote: »

This is pretty much the same as in England. The most important English motorways, the M1, M2, M3, M4, and M6, (although not the M5) were all built to serve similar routes as the A1, A2, A3, A4 and A6. Scotland also has some brand new motorways that didn't have existing A routes.

England has nothing even resembling route inheritance, read up on it before claiming it does... they use a zonal system which is why some of the *major* roads will occasionally have similar numbers but thats about it.

Scotland legally DOES have route inheritance.

Cool Mo D

MYOB wrote: »

England has nothing even resembling route inheritance, read up on it before claiming it does... they use a zonal system which is why some of the *major* roads will occasionally have similar numbers but thats about it.

Scotland legally DOES have route inheritance.

Well you are right about the motorways. Scotland and England use the exact same zonal system for their A and B roads. For motorways, England uses a special motorway zonal system, while Scotland use the A and B zones for motorways too, with motorways taking the number of the nearest important A road.

L1011

I was only talking about motorway numbering, though...

I also think the A/B numbering system in Scotland is 'broken' since the A9 was cut back; but SABRE is a better place to see if it is.

Alun

murphaph wrote: »

When the gap in the M6/M74 is closed ...

It already has been. It was opened at the end of last year some time.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/A74_road#Cumberland_Gap

icdg

MYOB wrote: »

England has nothing even resembling route inheritance, read up on it before claiming it does... they use a zonal system which is why some of the *major* roads will occasionally have similar numbers but thats about it.

Scotland legally DOES have route inheritance.

There is of course the curious example of the M2, which bypasses part of the A2, but that was apparently due it being apparently announced with that number in error. It stuck and they opened the road as M2.

In Elngland they label motorway sections of A-roads as A(x)M, which is more directly equivilant to the Mx labels here for motorways.

strassenwolf

I do remember reading somewhere that the reason for the gap between the numbers for the primary roads in the Republic of Ireland (1-32(?)) and the secondary roads (50 upwards)* was that this would eventually facilitate the renumbering of roads in Northern Ireland.


[*]In this scenario, the M50 would actually be seen as a secondary road (for numbering purposes) as it is a by-pass rather than a road whose purpose is to link towns/cities)[/*]

I can't remember where I read this, but it certainly seems to make sense that such logic might have been used at some stage in the past - by people who saw unification as a desirable and eventually likely event - to allow development of a sensible numbering system in the Republic without requiring a total renumbering of all roads on the Island in the event of unification.

Thus, in the event of a United Ireland ever coming about, this would facilitate Derry-Belfast, Armagh-Belfast, Armagh-Derry, Dungannon-Belfast, etc., being (meritoriously) renumbered as primary roads with one of the numbers 33-49.

Given that unification is hardly ever mentioned now, the idea that such logic may ever have been applied to road numbering may strike some people as odd. However, unification was for a long time seen by some as both desirable and inevitable, and it certainly does seem a plausible explanation for the large gap in the numbers of the primary and secondary roads.

Probably, I suppose, what would now be called "future-proofing".

I've never seen any proof that this was the case, and nor have I ever had enough inclination to follow it up, but - if there is truth in it - one would have to admire the logic.

icdg

strassenwolf wrote: »

I do remember reading somewhere that the reason for the gap between the numbers for the primary roads in the Republic of Ireland (1-32(?)) and the secondary roads (50 upwards)* was that this would eventually facilitate the renumbering of roads in Northern Ireland.


[*]In this scenario, the M50 would actually be seen as a secondary road (for numbering purposes) as it is a by-pass rather than a road whose purpose is to link towns/cities)[/*]

The original system only went up as far as N25 for national primaries. And while the N3 now looks like a route was planned through NI for it - as it re-emerges in Donegal to link to Ballyshannon - this is in fact a revision of the original system. The original N3 only went to the Cavan border.

There is no evidence as far as I'm aware that they ever planned the National Route Numbering System to include NI - but there are all those spare numbers...

L1011

strassenwolf wrote: »

Thus, in the event of a United Ireland ever coming about, this would facilitate Derry-Belfast, Armagh-Belfast, Armagh-Derry, Dungannon-Belfast, etc., being (meritoriously) renumbered as primary roads with one of the numbers 33-49.

Going to detrunk the Ardee link road?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/N33_road

The idea that the numbering system was all-island slightly falls apart on the secondaries, theres nowhere near enough empty space below 100 - and we appear to try to make sure duplicate numbers cannot happen, what with three digit R and 4 or 5 digit L...

spacetweek

Alun wrote: »

It already has been. It was opened at the end of last year some time.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/A74_road#Cumberland_Gap

Interesting - yet no mention of M6 renaming. Must be off the agenda.

spacetweek

strassenwolf wrote: »

I do remember reading somewhere that the reason for the gap between the numbers for the primary roads in the Republic of Ireland (1-32(?)) and the secondary roads (50 upwards)* was that this would eventually facilitate the renumbering of roads in Northern Ireland.
...
I've never seen any proof that this was the case, and nor have I ever had enough inclination to follow it up, but - if there is truth in it - one would have to admire the logic.

This seems very unlikely. Isn't it much more likely that they just left those gaps so that the Republic's road network could have additions in the future?

I had an old map from the 70s which showed the L and T system, which allowed me to create this map:
L/T System. Here it can be seen that routes made even less attempt to cross the border - the N3 was called T35 and only went as far as Cavan. You had to change to T10 to complete the journey.

In any case, I don't admire the logic, as the idea of "inevitable reunification" and "territorial claim" seems outdated now and even a little unpleasant.

nordydan

Not gonna happen any time soon, but there are plenty of available numbers to incorporate the North (if it were required), currently 16 national primary routes (34-49) and 14 secondary routes (57, 79, 88-99), and this excludes the routes that would be extension of routes in the republic:

N1/A1/M1/A12 Belfast-Dublin
N2/A5 Dublin-Derry
N3/A509/A46 Dublin-Ballyshannon
N16/A4 Belfast-Sligo
N13/A6 Belfast-Letterkenny
N14/A34 Strabane-Letterkenny
N87/A32 Cavan/Fermanagh area
N53/A37 Dundalk-Castleblayney
N12/N54/N55/A3/M12 Athlone-Cavan-Monaghan-Portadown-Belfast (this would free up two more routes for say N54/N55/N57 to be used in the big six?)

And a lot of the existing non-primary A roads are of regional road quality.
So potentially:

A32/A505/A31 Enniskillen-Omagh-Cookstown-Castledawson
A29/A28/A2 Coleraine-Armagh-Newry-Kilkeel
A24/A2 Belfast-Kilkeel
A26 Moira-Coleraine
A2/A37/?? Derry-Coleraine
M3/A2 Belfast-Bangor
A25 Downpatrick-Newry (secondary)
A22/A21 Downpatrick-Bangor (secondary)
A3? Ballymena-Larne (secondary)
A2 Coleraine-Ballycastle-Carrickfergus-Belfast (secondary)
A7 Downpatrick-Belfast (secondary)
A20 Newtownards-Belfast (secondary)

Would be all that is required for either N number allocation, rest are regional.

So plenty of routes available, and yes the North numbering system is appalling and non-sensical. In contrast, the Republic's numbering system is excellent and highly logical. However the earliest I could see this happening would be if they built a motorway to Derry and forced the issue, which will be a very, very long coming with present finances!!

The fact the the N3 was continued to Ballyshannon, inidcates that they were considering the north for part of their numbering system, if only as a notional idea. The comparison with the Benelux countries is inaccurate one, in the sense that all cross border roads from NI lead to the Republic, and vice versa. Belgium borders four countries for example. Still not a priority.
If however in the future the Roads Service were to renumber in the North and not take into account the system in the south, then that would be of concern. I doubt that will happen now.

corktina

Cool Mo D wrote: »

Well you are right about the motorways. Scotland and England use the exact same zonal system for their A and B roads. For motorways, England uses a special motorway zonal system, while Scotland use the A and B zones for motorways too, with motorways taking the number of the nearest important A road.

thats not true im afaird, The A40 for instance was the main London to Fishguard road before the severn bridge was opened and the M4 built. The M40 is London to Birmingham. The A1 (and A1M) run towards the North east (the Great North Rd) whereas the M1 was always a new route (again to Brum and now to the M6 North West road) which in fact shadows the old A6 which was the Holyhead Rd

strassenwolf

spacetweek wrote: »

In any case, I don't admire the logic, as the idea of "inevitable reunification" and "territorial claim" seems outdated now and even a little unpleasant.

Of course, you may be looking at these things with 2009 eyes.

But try not to forget that it was only as recently as 1998 that these ideas and goals were removed from our Constitution.

For 61 years - including the time when the new numbering system was implemented - these ideas and goals were explicitly stated in the document. For example:

"The national territory consists of the Island of Ireland..."

"Pending the re-integration of the national territory,..."

etc.

You may not like the logic.

However, if that logic was indeed applied to the task at hand, I'm surprised there's someone who wouldn't admire it, given that it allowed development of a numbering system which could be useful both at the time it was developed and at some future date when the explicitly stated goals of the citizens of The Republic of Ireland were finally realised.

Under the Constitutional circumstances prevailing until 1998, I'd say good planning.

strassenwolf

strassenwolf wrote: »

Of course, you may be looking at these things with 2009 eyes.

But try not to forget that it was only as recently as 1998 that these ideas and goals were removed from our Constitution.

For 61 years - including the time when the new numbering system was implemented - these ideas and goals were explicitly stated in the document. For example:

"The national territory consists of the Island of Ireland..."

"Pending the re-integration of the national territory,..."

etc.

You may not like the logic.

However, if that logic was indeed applied to the task at hand, I'm surprised there's someone who wouldn't admire it, given that it allowed development of a numbering system which could be useful both at the time it was developed and at some future date when the explicitly stated goals of the citizens of The Republic of Ireland were finally realised.

Under the Constitutional circumstances prevailing until 1998, I'd say good planning.

[OT] Presumably that's why the "03" area code is skipped in the telephome numbering scheme?

[/OT]

nordydan

03 was reserved for GB I think in the old days. But it could be used for the North when the tanks roll in...

murphaph

Any day now....

nordydan

murphaph wrote: »

Any day now....

Is that the D4 West Brit Reaction force???? ;-)

murphaph

We (that's the royal 'we') prefer the DFWBRF

icdg

nordydan wrote: »

03 was reserved for GB I think in the old days. But it could be used for the North when the tanks roll in...

Indeed, our original STD code system gave codes to both Northern Ireland (08, this was pre-mobile phone days) and Great Britain (03). Calls to Great Britain were not originally charged as international calls (they were "Cross-Channel Calls") while calls to NI landlines were (and still are) either national or local calls depending on where you live. Early maps in TÉ telephone directories showing the STD codes labeled NI as "08 Area".

But this had pratical effects and were part of TÉ's charging structure. There was no benifit to giving the NI roads N and R numbers and there is no evidence to my mind that this was ever done.

The extension of the N3 to Ballyshannon was a revision. The original routes are here and show the N3 stopping at the border:

http://www.irishstatutebook.ie/1977/en/si/0164.html

"N 3 Dublin-Aghalane, County Cavan
Between its junction with N 2 at Doyles Corner in the county borough of Dublin and the boundary between the county of Cavan and the county of Fermanagh at Aghalane via North Circular Road, Cabra Road and Navan Road in the county borough of Dublin: Ashtown, Blanchardstown and Mulhuddart in the county of Dublin: Clonee, Dunshaughlin, Ross Cross Roads and Kilcarn in the county of Meath: Limekiln Street, Academy Street, Bridge Street, Ludlow Street, Market Square, Trimgate Street, Cannon Row, and Kells Road in the urban district of Navan: Finegan's Cross Roads and Hurdlestown in the county of Meath: Headfort Place, John Street, Castle Street and Carrick Street in the urban district of Kells: Carnaross and Derver in the county of Meath: Lisduff, Virginia, Lisgrea, Billis Bridge, New Inn, Knocknagillagh, Lavey, Killygarry and Creighan in the county of Cavan: Dublin Road, College Street, Farnham Place and Farnham Street in the urban district of Cavan: Drumgola, Butlers Bridge, Kilduff and Corporation Lands in the county of Cavan: Erne Hill, Deanery Street, Holborn Hill, Butler Street, Upper Bridge Street and Lower Bridge Street in the town of Belturbet: Drumcole in the county of Cavan."

nordydan

murphaph wrote: »

We (that's the royal 'we') prefer the DFWBRF

Gotta feel sorry for our Anglo-Irish community, if that's all Anglo Irish Bank can afford these days.. Sterling ain't what it used to be

I doubt they had a precise plan for the N & R routes, but there is certainly allowance for it. Maybe simply due to the sixe of the island and the fact that there are enough numbers

The "N" roads only need to go as far as the first Tesco's over the border, no one goes much further beyond that!

strassenwolf

icdq wrote:

Indeed, our original STD code system gave codes to both Northern Ireland (08, this was pre-mobile phone days) and Great Britain (03). Calls to Great Britain were not originally charged as international calls (they were "Cross-Channel Calls") while calls to NI landlines were (and still are) either national or local calls depending on where you live. Early maps in TÉ telephone directories showing the STD codes labeled NI as "08 Area".

And what codes were originally allocated for mobile phone numbers under the original STD code system?

My own guess is that...none were...as mobile phones were not a future for which there was any planning at the time.

But this had pratical effects and were part of TÉ's charging structure. There was no benifit to giving the NI roads N and R numbers and there is no evidence to my mind that this was ever done.

I doubt if individual N and R numbers were allocated to NI roads. The topic under current discussion on this thread is whether spare numbers were left available for the time when the Republic's envisaged future - at the time - should eventually become reality.

The presence of these spare numbers would have made it much easier for the entire Island's road network to be amalgamated, should the Republic's "desired" scenario come to pass.

As with you, icdq, I'm not aware of any evidence that this forward planning was done. I'm also not aware that it wasn't.

mumhaabu

Whats the point most road signs are confusing plus nearly everybody has sat nav nowadays. I couldn't make it out of the province now without sat nav notamind the the ROI.

nordydan

mumhaabu wrote: »

Whats the point most road signs are confusing plus nearly everybody has sat nav nowadays. I couldn't make it out of the province now without sat nav notamind the the ROI.

What language do they speak in the "province"??

RadioCity

nordydan wrote: »

What language do they speak in the "province"??

We spake Norn Irn.

mumhaabu

nordydan wrote:

What language do they speak in the "province"??

We speak Irish in the free Munster republic, which clearly you don't or you would have guessed from my nick mumha abu or Up Munster!;)

nordydan

mumhaabu wrote: »

We speak Irish in the free Munster republic, which clearly you don't or you would have guessed from my nick mumha abu or Up Munster!;)

Ah but I knew that, at least yous can play rugby, even you can't spake the Queen's English properly (if you know what I mean like big lad)

mumhaabu

nordydan wrote: »

Ah but I knew that, at least yous can play rugby, even you can't spake the Queen's English properly (if you know what I mean like big lad)

lol!

Richard

strassenwolf wrote: »

And what codes were originally allocated for mobile phone numbers under the original STD code system?

My own guess is that...none were...as mobile phones were not a future for which there was any planning at the time.

I don't think that was icdg's point - he was just pointing out that that was the then use for the 08 range.

Interestingly (or not as the case may be), whilst many exchanges in Northern Ireland were accessed by adding 08 on the front of the number (i.e. 080247 for Bangor), some had completely different codes (084 for Belfast IIRC). This meant that ringing Belfast from Kerry used fewer digits than from Derry. I don't think this was necessarily the Republic being expansionist or anything, as from the UK there were special codes for several places in the Republic. 0009 was Galway and 0004 was Dundalk. Ringing Dundalk from just over the border was (and still is) treated as a local call by BT.

By the late ninties, it was just 08 and then the code. "N-IRL access" as the numbering plan calls it co-existed with mobiles for a number of years. It now uses the 048 code, which fits in nicely with neighbouring areas of the Republic. 004428 is now also permitted.

ardmacha

Dialling to Belfast was introduced long before other places, hence the short 084 code. There were some local arrangements between Dundalk and Newry using a short code, 18 perhaps. The Northern phone system didn't envisage dialled traffic to the Freestate so you had to call there using the operator although you could easily dial Australia.

L1011

Getting woefully off-topic here, does NI have any direct dialling for us now or is it +353 required?

strassenwolf

Richard, I suspect you may be missing the point here, but for the purposes of clarification:

What numbers were actually set aside for mobile communication?

As I have said before, my guess is that none were, as the days of mobile communication had not been foreseen to the extent that action on this matter needed to be taken. But perhaps you can disabuse me of this notion.

The days of a United Ireland clearly were envisaged, so much so that they were enshrined as both desirable and inevitable in the highest legal document in the land.

Setting aside spare telephone codes, for a future which had not yet been envisaged, might have been seen as impractical.

Setting aside spare road numbers for a future which, according to our Constitution, was then seen as both desirable and inevitable, would surely have been very practical. No?

ardmacha

Getting woefully off-topic here, does NI have any direct dialling for us now or is it +353 required?

+353 is required, but they don't charge extra. It is a measure of political developments that all through the economic war and the Stormont government cross border calls were the same price, but along comes mobiles introduced after the inter government "arrangements" and they can charge what they like.

Bring it back to transport, in the era of the Stormont government car insurance was harmonised, yet in 2009 car hire companies still gouge people taking a car across the border.

Setting aside spare road numbers for a future which, according to our Constitution, was then seen as both desirable and inevitable, would surely have been very practical. No?

Living on an island it would have been sensible whatever the political aspects.

Rawr

Just to mess with your heads , here's a little oddity I noticed years ago on the map...

http://maps.google.com/?ie=UTF8&ll=54.14816,-7.303162&spn=0.125675,0.388985&t=h&z=12

Notice that isolated bit of the N54?