Rail Ticket Fine

Vince135792003

Hi everyone,

This is a bit of a long story but I would appreciate some feedback on this one.

Last Saturday at Louisa Bridge station in Leixlip, I boarded a train to go to Connolly. There was no cashier to buy a ticket off and the machine at the station rejected my coins 4 times (as in I would put it in the machine and it would come out the other end).

I didn't think it was a big issue because the same thing happened with the machine and no cashier the day before and I simply paid at Connolly station.

However, about 5 minutes into the journey, an inspector boarded the train and asked to see my ticket as well as my friends. I said I didn't have one and explained to him the situation, that being I wasn't able to get one in any way and had even the €2.30 in my hand the whole time.

The inspector basically rejected what I had to say and said he was issuing me with a 50 euro fine. His exact words were "Just pay your fare next time".

I was pretty angry and I took offense to this because in my mind they were issuing me a fine for their own incompetence (that being a faulty machine).

So I did the really stupid thing of giving false information when he issued me the fine. I was caught and the fine was increased to 100 euro after my friend obviously wasn't able to confirm the details I had given.

Again, it was a really stupid and wrong move on my part but my flawed reasoning at the time was that a guy was just after taking 50 euro out of my pocket for circumstances completely beyond my control and I just wanted to get out of it anyway I could as I had in my mind a right to do so.

So I guess my question is, do I have a leg to stand on in my appeal given the fact I gave false information? I have a feeling I shot myself in the foot by lieing and I'll lose but to me the primary issue is that I wanted to pay and there was absolutely no way I could.

Any advice would be welcome. Thanks.

paulm17781

If the ticket office was closed and the machine didn't work, the fine should be void. You are not to blame for this. Unfortunately, I do not know the appeals process. You could try ringing Irish rail but I don't know what use it'll do. Fight though, it isn't your fault.

Hagar

You may find that they will not accept your word that the machine was broken since you have already tried to deceive them. Harsh I know, I'm sorry, but that's probably the way they will look at it.

Victor

There is no absolute obligation to use a ticket machine - only the ticket office.

Giving a false address does not help your case.

bmaxi

I have free travel and like the OP, I was unable to get a ticket because the booking office was closed, ticket machines don't cater for free travel passes so, as I had to get into town, I boarded the train anyway. At Connolly when I tried to get through the barrier I was subjected to humiliation and abuse.
The following day I rang "Customer Services" (there's a laugh), to complain about my treatment and was met with a mantra, trotted out over and over during the conversation, "You must have a valid ticket to board a train". As a holder of a free travel pass there was no intent or reason to defraud but there are no grey areas with these people.

Vince135792003

Just to update everyone, they are maintaining that the machine was working.

I wish I could view the CCTV footage if there was any because it would clearly show me trying to use the machine and it refusing my coins.

I am really annoyed about this, how I have been treated and how I lied because then I would have had a much stronger case.

corktina

your problem may well be that there were people on the same train who did manage to get tickets, presumably you werent the only one to board there. I think you might as well pay up and put it down to experiance as you have spoiled any case you might have had by giving the false name.

antoinolachtnai

You could request the cctv footage under the data protection act, if it hasn't been deleted already.

It is hard to see exactly what the basis in the CIE bye-laws is for the fixed penalties on Irish Rail.

I don't see anything in the 1984 byelaws that would justify a fixed penalty fare.

Maybe someone can explain this.

Vince135792003

There were 2 other people that boarded the same time as us. Unless, their coins had more success than mine, I would assume that they had tickets already purchased. I could be wrong though.


I realise that giving false information makes my case a whole lot weaker. However, the initial fine was for not paying for my ticket which I attempted to do, wanted to do and was unable to do so.

Also, the lesson doesn't appear to be either to be honest because I was speaking to a work colleague and the very same thing happened to her at the 2 very same stations (however she did not give false information) and she was issued with a fine and was unsuccessful with her appeal.

Vince135792003

antoinolachtnai wrote: »

You could request the cctv footage under the data protection act, if it hasn't been deleted already.

I e-mailed them on that very issue. I'm not holding my breath though.

Of course the counter argument could be that what was in my hand was not real coins.

I also plan on going up tonight and filming me putting coins in the machine and them coming out the other end. I sound like such a sad case! But I really do feel strongly about this.

Einstein

I'm with u on this OP. Similar situation happened me with a clamper...the machine said it stopped at 7pm but the sign said midnight...i paid till 7 but got clamped. I took photos and emailed them to some cust. serv address. Was surprised that they actually re-imbursed me.
Stick to your guns!

jaffa20

Did you try the ticket machine more than once as sometimes the coins need to be put through a few times for them to be accepted. if others were able to get tickets and it shows this on the cctv then it's unlikely the fine will be voided.

Edit.. i see you tried it 4 times. In that case, you shouldn't pay it.

Vince135792003

jaffa20 wrote: »

Did you try the ticket machine more than once as sometimes the coins need to be put through a few times for them to be accepted. if others were able to get tickets and it shows this on the cctv then it's unlikely the fine will be voided.

Edit.. i see you tried it 4 times. In that case, you shouldn't pay it.

Plus the thing is, I was going from that station the day before and it rejected my coins too. So I mean how many times are you supposed to try? It's not a slot machine.

The big issue I have now is that they don't accept that the machine was faulty.

My comeback to that is 2 fold. If CCTV exists in the station for the day, it will show me at the machine trying to pay. My query is, do I have the right to view it if it exists?

Also I plan on going up tonight and filming myself putting 10 coins in the machine and lets see how well the machine scores.

I would even accept grudgingly paying the 50 euro for giving false information but it's the principal of the whole thing that has me motivated I guess.

Woods Girl

I wish Irish rail would just get taken over!! Everything is our fault, nothing is ever theirs. Its happens many times when a train does not turn up and everyone is squashed onto the next train.

Victor

antoinolachtnai wrote: »

You could request the cctv footage under the data protection act, if it hasn't been deleted already.

It is hard to see exactly what the basis in the CIE bye-laws is for the fixed penalties on Irish Rail.

I don't see anything in the 1984 byelaws that would justify a fixed penalty fare.

Maybe someone can explain this.

Its in the Railway Safety Act.

Cool Mo D

You are not obliged to use a ticket vending machine if there is no staff member there, according to Irish Rail bylaws. This rule is mostly for the benefit of elderly or disabled passengers, but it still applies to you. If you stick with it, you should get the fine removed.

Vince135792003

Cool Mo D wrote: »

You are not obliged to use a ticket vending machine if there is no staff member there, according to Irish Rail bylaws. This rule is mostly for the benefit of elderly or disabled passengers, but it still applies to you. If you stick with it, you should get the fine removed.

Thanks for that but they have already said that the fine sticks. I am kinda annoyed with myself that I e-mailed them so quick after the incident after all the advice and things I have done since.


For example, I am just after taking a video of me putting coins into the machine and them coming straight back out. It's as clear as day. I am not sure where to go next with it though.

antoinolachtnai

Victor,

Ah yes, Section 132, there it is.

Do you know where is the company's list of penalty charges is? I'm a bit surprised by the arbitrariness of the penalty (first 50 euros, then 100 euros). It is hard to see how the inspector had discretion to increase the fine.

All this is probably academic though, the OP had probably best pay. If things get messy, paying the fine will stop IR from trying to prosecute him.

For maximum effectiveness, and minimum risk, I would suggest the OP:

- pay the fine, including details of what happened with the payment, saying you are paying under protest. It is very important to get a receipt when paying, or to send by registered mail.

- write to Irish Rail pointing out that he has effectively been barred from using the local train service after hours unless he has pre-purchased, because the ticket machine doesn't work. Include dvd.

- If Irish Rail doesn't write back in 21 days with decent answer, write to TD complaining about issue and lack of response. Remember to explain that this is an issue that effects your whole community.

- If Irish Rail don't fix the machine write to TD again.

- If and when Irish Rail fix the machine write to them, thank them for fixing the machine and then ask for the penalty fare back.

GerardKeating

jaffa20 wrote: »

Did you try the ticket machine more than once as sometimes the coins need to be put through a few times for them to be accepted. if others were able to get tickets and it shows this on the cctv then it's unlikely the fine will be voided.

Edit.. i see you tried it 4 times. In that case, you shouldn't pay it.

But i am sure the OP used the same coins all 4 times, so maybe it was the coin he used.

egan007

Off topic sidebar: (that could have prevented the situation)
Slightly unpleasant tip for getting machines to accept your coins when it's rejecting them and accepting others is to lick your finger and dampen the coin with a rub on both sides....the friction works every time

Tip2: Don't pay on the spot fines - on the spot.

Vince135792003

GerardKeating wrote: »

But i am sure the OP used the same coins all 4 times, so maybe it was the coin he used.

I didn't and when I went up last night to test the machine, I used 4 different coins and they were all rejected. It's all on video.

highnc

where's this infamous video....or has irish rail won the battle?