New passport checks for trips to Britain

Victor

http://www.irishtimes.com/newspaper/ireland/2009/0117/1232059656192.html

New passport checks for trips to Britain

Air and ferry passengers travelling between Britain and the Republic will face routine passport checks under the requirements of the new Borders, Citizenship and Immigration Bill published at Westminster this week, writes Frank Millar, London Editor.

The decision represents an effort to improve security in the Common Travel Area in the wider context of the British government’s drive towards the creation of an “electronic border”.

The new legislation is expected to become law before the present parliamentary session ends in May next year.

Duiske

I did not realise you even needed a passport when travelling to the UK. I went to Glasgow a few months back, by ferry, and only had my driving licence with me. Was not even asked for that.

amacachi

I had to show my passport to some kind of police as I was leaving London in November. Not too sure why, what do they care what I do when I'm gone :P They seemed to have a fair bit of reading on the computer about me, which is strange.

Victor

amacachi wrote: »

Not too sure why, what do they care what I do when I'm gone

What is you were a someone who had a warrant out for them?

amacachi

Victor wrote: »

What is you were a someone who had a warrant out for them?

True, obviously hadn't thought about it enough :P
Still would love to know what they were reading about me. Ah well, suppose I don't get the privilege of knowing about myself :P

Run_to_da_hills

Just another requirement for the Police State UK, we had almost 80 years of troubles inn the North and never was a passport required for Irish Citizens to enter the UK. We will soon need these to enter the North. I can also see these being made compulsory to carry at all times and will eventually be produced in credit card form.

AugustusMaximus

Run_to_da_hills wrote: »

Just another requirement for the Police State UK, we had almost 80 years of troubles inn the North and never was a passport required for Irish Citizens to enter the UK. We will soon need these to enter the North. I can also see these being made compulsory to carry at all times and will eventually be produced in credit card form.

having to produce a passport at the border will drive people crazy.

It it gets to this we might aswell join Schengen Agreement.

Zoney

Hmmm... I suspect this affects Northern Ireland too, in that anyone there will have to use a passport to get to mainland UK. Although fortunately it seems still no formal controls between the North and the rest of Ireland. Just immigration checks where you get special treatment if you're a UK or Irish citizen who doesn't look indigenous enough.

Does anyone here actually travel to the North with a passport? For those using public transport who don't have a driving licence, do you bring other ID? As far as I know there is no requirement to do so.

I agree we should just join Schengen (apart from anything else, it means strict common standards on entry from outside EU to Ireland) if we ever have to introduce border controls at the North. In fact with controls between the North and the rest of the UK, it would be handy if we could just have all of Ireland join Schengen, despite the north of the country being under UK jurisdiction.

IIMII

Zoney wrote: »

Does anyone here actually travel to the North with a passport?

No, why would I carry a passport to travel in my own country? They won't bring back border checkpoints - having British troops/ HM Customs stationed along the border would be a regressive step, and innevitably somebody, somewhere would see them as a target

Run_to_da_hills

IIMII wrote: »

No, why would I carry a passport to travel in my own country?

+1

IIMII wrote: »

They won't bring back border checkpoints - having British troops/ HM Customs stationed along the border would be a regressive step, and inevitably somebody, somewhere would see them as a target

It wont be a big scene as it was in the old days, modern passports with RFID Can be swiped at touch pads in seconds, Your identity appears on a computer screen. They could possibly use integrated registered transit smart cards as ID that were initially purchased with Passport identification. I can foresee the UK authorities checking identity on the Enterprise.

IIMII

Run_to_da_hills wrote: »

It wont be a big scene as it was in the old days, modern passports with RFID Can be swiped at touch pads in seconds, Your identity appears on a computer screen. They could possibly use integrated registered transit smart cards as ID that were initially purchased with Passport identification. I can foresee the UK authorities checking identity on the Enterprise.

It isn't about the gizmos. There won't be a return of fixed border checkpoints on this island, not a chance.. For reasons such as this and this. The British government won't want to antagonise the natives - it wouldn't make sense when they are trying to scale down their presence

And you didn't need passports in the old days either

Our man in Havana

I always take my passport with me when venturing up north. Seeing as it is part of the UK I don't see the problem with being asked to have identity documents when travelling to a foreign country. I don't why some people here are not willing to accept that NI is a part of the UK?

Latchy

I have always took my passport with me back and forth between UK and Ireland anyway so wont make a difference .The do insist on check in at dublin airport you have some form of ID with photograph .

Victor

Run_to_da_hills wrote: »

Just another requirement for the Police State UK, we had almost 80 years of troubles inn the North and never was a passport required for Irish Citizens to enter the UK.

Actually, during the war they were required and I think for a period either side.

Run_to_da_hills

Victor wrote: »

Actually, during the war they were required and I think for a period either side.

Not sure if they were required cross border, I know that Winston Churchill's government scrapped identity cards and the internal use of passports in 1952 which would have covered the above.

Latchy

Originally Posted by Run_to_da_hills
Just another requirement for the Police State UK, we had almost 80 years of troubles inn the North and never was a passport required for Irish Citizens to enter the UK

Perhaps they should have had one for mainland uk then ie, Engalnd scotland wales .Might have saved a lot of innocent people a lot of bother .?

Our man in Havana

Didn't they have some sort of form filling harassment techniques during the 70's and 80's?

amacachi

Bond-007 wrote: »

Didn't they have some sort of form filling harassment techniques during the 70's and 80's?

Well to cross from the North to the Republic depending on your name and accent they would often take over an hour to check your driver's licence.

Run_to_da_hills

latchyco wrote: »

Perhaps they should have had one for mainland uk then ie, England Scotland wales .Might have saved a lot of innocent people a lot of bother .?

They already have. Every time one swipes a registered smart card at a railway station or bus touch pad or crosses an electronic toll plaza it is as effective as swiping your passport everywhere you go. Same will apply with new RFID driving licenses. The UK Government is currently in the process of introducing smartcard ID for travelling on sea and mainline rail similar to the Oystercard.

L1011

I thought these proposals were going to require a passport between "Britain" and "Ireland" (as one bloc) rather than UK and ROI. Meaning you'd need a passport to go from Belfast to London; but not to Dublin. Which would rather enrage unionist politicians!

Our man in Havana

MYOB wrote: »

Which would rather enrage unionist politicians!

It would be fun to be in Peter Robinson's office when that proposal is being discussed.

Cool Mo D

Run_to_da_hills wrote: »

They already have. Every time one swipes a registered smart card at a railway station or bus touch pad or crosses an electronic toll plaza it is as effective as swiping your passport everywhere you go. Same will apply with new RFID driving licenses. The UK Government is currently in the process of introducing smartcard ID for travelling on sea and mainline rail similar to the Oystercard.

Em, no it isn't. It's pretty obviously nothing like it. Hint: how can they be sure the person swiping the smart card is the person it's registered to, without someone there to check? Also, the information isn't that useful to the Government, as even if they were illegally monitoring people using it, it wouldn't be valid evidence in court.

John R

Cool Mo D wrote: »

Em, no it isn't. It's pretty obviously nothing like it. Hint: how can they be sure the person swiping the smart card is the person it's registered to, without someone there to check? Also, the information isn't that useful to the Government, as even if they were illegally monitoring people using it, it wouldn't be valid evidence in court.

And as well as all that the vast majority of oyster cards sold are not registered to anybody. They can be bought from coin operated vending machines at tube stations and over the counter from thousands of newsagents and convenience stores all across London for £2, no names taken, fingerprints inked, blood syringed or retinas scanned.

Sponge Bob

Bond-007 wrote: »

Didn't they have some sort of form filling harassment techniques during the 70's and 80's?

Lots of it, the Brits were mad into Embarkation and Disembarkation forms often followed by petty and not so petty harassment of travellers in ports and airports .

They gave it up in the late 1980s and early 1990s and this was surprisingly followed by cease fires and peace agreements and brotherly love between the British and Irish .

The cards are ONLY allowed between Ireland and England under section 5 of the PTA 1977 ??? and if you knew this you could tie the peelers in knots in Dover or Heathrow terminal 2 and 3 when they handed you one to fill out .

This was especially useful on the Amsterdam route while your mates slithered in behind you It may have been amended since but this was the case in the 1970s and 1980s .

The specific wording in the 1989 variant of the PTA was

"5 (1) Subject to sub-paragraph (2) below, any person who disembarks from, or embarks on–

(a) a ship or aircraft in Great Britain which has come from, or is going to, the Republic of Ireland, Northern Ireland or any of the Islands; or

(b) a ship or aircraft in Northern Ireland which has come from, or is going to Great Britain, the Republic of Ireland or any of the Islands,

shall, if so required by an examining officer, complete and produce to that officer a landing or, as the case may be, an embarkation card in such form as the Secretary of State may direct, which, where the ship or aircraft is employed to carry passengers for reward, shall be supplied for the purpose to that person by the owners or agents of that ship or aircraft.

(2) Sub-paragraph (1) above shall not apply to a person disembarking from a ship or aircraft coming from the Republic of Ireland if that person is required to produce a landing card under any order for the time being in force under paragraph 5 of Schedule 2 to the [1971 c. 77.] Immigration Act 1971.

(3) Any person who may be examined under paragraph 2(3)(a) or (c) above shall, if so required by an examining officer, complete and produce to that officer an entry or, as the case may be, a departure card in such form as the Secretary of State may direct. "

This has been superceded by the 200 act which allows embarkation cards on any routes from or to anywhere .

You could have them on the Belfast Bangor train route were you so inclined

corktina

MYOB wrote: »

I thought these proposals were going to require a passport between "Britain" and "Ireland" (as one bloc) rather than UK and ROI. Meaning you'd need a passport to go from Belfast to London; but not to Dublin. Which would rather enrage unionist politicians!

well in a legal sense "Ireland" means the Republic as in France or South Africa (ie the republic of) and Britain indicates the United kingdom of Great Britain and Northern Ireland, so it that sense you are correct.

Latchy

Run_to_da_hills wrote: »

They already have. Every time one swipes a registered smart card at a railway station or bus touch pad or crosses an electronic toll plaza it is as effective as swiping your passport everywhere you go. Same will apply with new RFID driving licenses. The UK Government is currently in the process of introducing smartcard ID for travelling on sea and mainline rail similar to the Oystercard.

Was thinking more at the height of the troubles during the 70s/80s when Irish people in UK were routinely harressed .Have noticed that UK police do random searchs at trains staions and public places at various times , looking for anybody carrying offensive wepons .

Sponge Bob

I have no issue with pure 'random' policing checks .

What they did in the 1970s and much of the 1980s was targeted petty racial harassment ,although I would point out that much of this was conducted in ports and airports and that the plod in London are pretty OK to deal with and were back then.

The worst place I ever saw for it was Fishguard

NewDubliner

Duiske wrote: »

I did not realise you even needed a passport when travelling to the UK. I went to Glasgow a few months back, by ferry, and only had my driving licence with me. Was not even asked for that.

Under the 'Common Travel Area' agreement between Ireland and the UK, no passport is needed by Irish or UK citizens travelling between the two states. But, if stopped by the police, how would you quickly prove you didn't need to have one?....by producing your passport!

Sponge Bob

I usually speak Irish to them down in Shannon as I do not feel the need to show any ID to enter my own country

AlekSmart

With the continuing slide in the Irish fiscal position it`s far more likely that the two Brian`s will deploy units of Airm na h-Èireann to keep the Republics citizens IN rather than HMG needing to send the Household Cavalry to keep us OUT

Chris_533976

That'll be his way of stopping them shopping in Newry

IIMII

Bond-007 wrote: »

I don't why some people here are not willing to accept that NI is a part of the UK?

Quite clearly introducing border checks on the actual British border (ie the island of Britain) rather than in rural Down-Armagh-Fermanagh-Derry is a reflection that the British government doesn't really recognise 'NI' as really being part of the UK either

To quote Ian Paisley "We may be British but our cows are Irish". The British government message to Unionists is obviously "You may be British, but you live in Ireland."

KevR

When I was flying to Manchester from Dublin on Saturday morning they made an announcement mid-flight saying anyone without an EU passport would have to fill out a landing card. First time I've ever seen this and when we got off the plane and were bused to the terminal we walked straight out of the airport with no passport checks (as is always the case in Mcr) so what was the point in the whole landing card business on the plane?

the_syco

Zoney wrote: »

apart from anything else, it means strict common standards on entry from outside EU to Ireland

Sounds like it'll be ineffective due to the Dublin Act.

=-=

I forsee the buildings where these are located getting attacked by the 'RA.

trellheim

here is the bill published 15 Jan

http://www.ukba.homeoffice.gov.uk/managingborders/borderscitizenshipbill/

Essentially the important point is that air and ferry passengers ROI->UK are subject to passport control

http://www.publications.parliament.uk/pa/ld200809/ldbills/015/09015.37-43.html#j740jc

Our man in Havana

http://www.ukba.homeoffice.gov.uk/sitecontent/documents/managingourborders/border-cit-imm-bill/supporting-documents/finaliaofcommontravelarea?view=Binary

Interesting reading there regarding the CTA.

Chris_533976

Great. So now we have to fill in stuff on the plane. The UK is becoming more of a police state.

One of the requirements of being an EU country should be (semi-forced) entry into Schengen.

Time to get Ireland into Schengen, even if it means border controls to the North.

ardmacha

anyone without an EU passport would have to fill out a landing card.

We don't have to fill in anything, other than people from outside the EU, who are a fairly small proportion of people travelling to Britain.

Time to get Ireland into Schengen, even if it means border controls to the North.

This is nonsense, such controls are not politically feasible. We may be back to the 80's economically, there is no need for additional efforts to restore the violent conditions of the 80's as well, especially as the only benefit would be that people going on planes to the Continent wouldn't have to carry as passport.

Run_to_da_hills

MYOB wrote: »

I thought these proposals were going to require a passport between "Britain" and "Ireland" (as one bloc) rather than UK and ROI. Meaning you'd need a passport to go from Belfast to London; but not to Dublin. Which would rather enrage unionist politicians!

You mean the mainland. :pac:

Our man in Havana

Run_to_da_hills wrote: »

You mean the mainland. :pac:

Indeed.

dowlingm

Chris_533976 wrote: »

Great. So now we have to fill in stuff on the plane. The UK is becoming more of a police state.

One of the requirements of being an EU country should be (semi-forced) entry into Schengen.

(Semi-)forcing any country into dissolving its border controls would make the EU a police superstate. We made a choice, we went with the UK over Schengen because the alternative was passport controls north of Dundalk.

nordydan

Chris_533976 wrote: »

Time to get Ireland into Schengen, even if it means border controls to the North.

Agree about Schengen, border controls to the North would be impossible with all te roads reopened now. Non-starter and a disgraceful thing to suggest. Shame on you