Paul O'Connell for Lions captain?

steelbar

What do you think? He has really led from the front this year.

Stev_o

steelbar wrote: »

What do you think? He has really led from the front this year.

There's a thread already

steelbar

Stev_o wrote: »

There's a thread already

Oh right, havn't been on in a while

NewApproach

Agree and think he would make a very good lions captain, but if Ireland have a poor six nations i would say it is much less likely

NewApproach

NewApproach wrote: »

Agree and think he would make a very good lions captain, but if Ireland have a poor six nations i would say it is much less likely

Why?

He wont be Ireland captain anyway,so what difference would it make.

If h3e has a bad six nations he might not be selected but other than that it would change nothing.

steelbar

Would you think that he should be Irish Captain aswell?

Chucky the tree

Stev_o wrote: »

There's a thread already

Wasnt it deleted? I cant see this one lasting very long either.

soundsham

ireland and lions........not a better leader around

Hazys

i couldnt pick a better leader. He has all the skills you want from a captain:

Level headed
As much a leader off the field as on it
Massive respect from all veterns of the game
Leads by example
Extremely passionate about the game
Builds a sense of community on the Munster team

It think hes unlucky that BOD got the captaincy before him because their would be no questoin he'd get it now if the job was up for grabs

jam_on_toast

he'd be my pick at the moment but the 6N will reveal all. Heineken cup form will not have a very strong bearing towards lions selection i think.


He should be Irl captain and i reckon he will be.

Serenity Now!

steelbar wrote: »

What do you think? He has really led from the front this year.

It'll be Ryan Jones.

bleg

1st name on the teamsheet anyway

sm.org

Serenity Now! wrote: »

It'll be Ryan Jones.

The Captain firstly has to be an automatic pick on current form, Jones is no where near that at the mo. Still early doors yet good 6N's and he could be back in, if the team was picked tomorrow he'd be on the bench.

Chucky the tree

sm.org wrote: »

The Captain firstly has to be an automatic pick on current form, Jones is no where near that at the mo. Still early doors yet good 6N's and he could be back in, if the team was picked tomorrow he'd be on the bench.

Who'd be ahead of him?

[Jackass]

I'm not sure if it'll be O'Connell, but if he got it you couldn't argue that he didn't deserve it or wouldn't be very good at it..

I rekon it'll go to Blair though..

Podge_irl

Neither O'Connell nor O'Driscoll would be good picks imo. POC is a great player, but he lacks the necessary tactical nous to be Lions caption I think.

Erin Go Brath

POC is a natural leader. He would be an excellent choice. I still feel O'Driscoll will get in on a wave of empathy after his cruel exit at the last tour.

Gelio

I would be surprised if it is POC

twinytwo

if o driscoll is selected he will be captain end of.

Moncti48

unless kidney changes POC to captain then he wont and cant be captian of the lions!! so depends on who will be picking the Irish team, DK or the lions selectors!

il gatto

Blair is clever player and a class scrum half in great form, but I think most managers like having a forward as captain. Seems to be the norm anyway. POC would be excellent, BOD may get it due his exit from the last tour and the disgrace of his assailants getting off scot free.
Ryan Jones is being bandied about in the British media due to last years Grand Slam. If they do it again, he may be a shoe in, but he's been pretty woeful all round since that.
There's a way to go yet. Who knows who'll in or out of form or injured or who'll step up in the coming months? He won't be English I suspect, however:pac:

Podge_irl

Moncti48 wrote: »

unless kidney changes POC to captain then he wont and cant be captian of the lions!! so depends on who will be picking the Irish team, DK or the lions selectors!

The Lions captain doesn't have to be captain of their country.

The Captain firstly has to be an automatic pick on current form, Jones is no where near that at the mo. Still early doors yet good 6N's and he could be back in, if the team was picked tomorrow he'd be on the bench.

I'm not entirely sure I ascribe to that line of thought. If there is a big gulf between a prospective captain and the more in-form player then yes, its a problem. However a better captain can be worth a lot more to a team then a slightly better player in one position.

thehighground

Podge_irl wrote: »

The Lions captain doesn't have to be captain of their country.



I'm not entirely sure I ascribe to that line of thought. If there is a big gulf between a prospective captain and the more in-form player then yes, its a problem. However a better captain can be worth a lot more to a team then a slightly better player in one position.

Would he be worth this much do you think?

Jones not assured of Six Nations place
Scrum.com
January 18, 2009

Wales boss Warren Gatland has warned his skipper Ryan Jones that he is not assured selection for the Six Nations after their back-row options increased with the emergence of Andy Powell and the return to fitness of Jonathan Thomas.

http://www.scrum.com/sixnations/rugby/story/89893.html

Podge_irl

thehighground wrote: »

Would he be worth this much do you think?

Jones? Not really. It was more a general point I was making. Cullen is worth far more to Leinster as captain then as a second row for example.

thehighground

twinytwo wrote: »

if o driscoll is selected he will be captain end of.

From the interview in the Irish Times yesterday, it doesn't look like he is too interested in any captaincy and would basically like to just win something. This interview is probably PR preparation ground to him stepping down from the Irish captaincy. He is still a contender for the Lions squad, but is far, far too injury prone to be considered as captain.


PS - Goose & RugbyFanatic - we were having a debate on another thread a few days ago where someone claimed that actually winning something is not a big deal and to be a great player is just enough.

BOD does not subscribe to that theory - he wants to win something before he retires.

INTERVIEW BRIAN O'DRISCOLL: JOHNNY WATTERSON meets the Ireland skipper. Caps no longer measure success for him. A more complete player now, he mightn’t break the line as much but he can still break a game

more here .....

http://www.irishtimes.com/newspaper/sport/2009/0117/1232059656320.html

thehighground

Podge_irl wrote: »

Jones? Not really. It was more a general point I was making. Cullen is worth far more to Leinster as captain then as a second row for example.

So, do you think Cullen would be good enough to captain Ireland/Lions?

Podge_irl

thehighground wrote: »

PS - Goose & RugbyFanatic - we were having a debate on another thread a few days ago where someone claimed that actually winning something is not a big deal and to be a great player is just enough.

BOD does not subscribe to that theory - he wants to win something before he retires.

It's an interesting point and you can see where he is coming from. But ultimately its a team sport and BOD has been let down by those around him so to speak which is desperately unfortunate for him. He deserves to win something special. Comparing players by what "they" have won is pointless though.

anonymous_joe

thehighground wrote: »

So, do you think Cullen would be good enough to captain Ireland/Lions?

Potentially - yes. A competent player whose a great captain could be better for a team without a captain than a better player.

For the record, I think Paul O'Connell's a great leader on the pitch, but a bit suspect at lineout calls, etc, so I don't know if he is a good captain. Phil Vickery for Wasps at the weekend is similarly to O'Connell a born leader and fighter, but made some gash calls. I think O'Connell could do that, I wouldn't want that to happen to him for our sake and above all for his. I'm sure BOD could tell anyone that captaincy's a responsibility not a happy bonus.

Podge_irl

thehighground wrote: »

So, do you think Cullen would be good enough to captain Ireland/Lions?

The Lions, no. I would seriously consider him for Ireland though - I don't think O'Callaghan is a significantly better player and I think Cullen is by far the best captain in Ireland. Leinster are a much worse team without him. He's certainly a better option then O'Driscoll.
POC and BOD are both great players and are definitely talismanic, but I think Cullen has a better head for captaincy then either of them. While they are good at the "leading by example" school of captaincy, the Irish team often looks completely rudderless and you have to lay some of the blame at their feet.

My point is more that people claim the captain has to be an automatic pick for his position, but people seem to select a team and then look for a captain out of it. Good captaincy skills should be included when deciding which player to pick for a position - a good captain can raise everyone's game which can be worth more then having a slightly better rugby player in one position.

Chucky the tree

anonymous_joe wrote: »

Potentially - yes. A competent player whose a great captain could be better for a team without a captain than a better player.

For the record, I think Paul O'Connell's a great leader on the pitch, but a bit suspect at lineout calls, etc, so I don't know if he is a good captain. Phil Vickery for Wasps at the weekend is similarly to O'Connell a born leader and fighter, but made some gash calls. I think O'Connell could do that, I wouldn't want that to happen to him for our sake and above all for his. I'm sure BOD could tell anyone that captaincy's a responsibility not a happy bonus.

So you dont think he's been a good captain at Munster?

thehighground

Podge_irl wrote: »

It's an interesting point and you can see where he is coming from. But ultimately its a team sport and BOD has been let down by those around him so to speak which is desperately unfortunate for him. He deserves to win something special. Comparing players by what "they" have won is pointless though.

I view it as a pity that such a great player never won a GS or Heineken Cup. But, can you absolve the captain of all responsibility for those around him failing to respond to his leadership?

anonymous_joe

Chucky the tree wrote: »

So you dont think he's been a good captain at Munster?

Did I say that?

I think there are people who are better at captaining teams.

thehighground wrote: »

I view it as a pity that such a great player never won a GS or Heineken Cup. But, can you absolve the captain of all responsibility for those around him failing to respond to his leadership?

To be honest yes. In a team game, there's only so much you can do. There's a whole rake of people, coaches, players, etc who all have to work well to win things.

thehighground

Podge_irl wrote: »

The Lions, no. I would seriously consider him for Ireland though - I don't think O'Callaghan is a significantly better player and I think Cullen is by far the best captain in Ireland. Leinster are a much worse team without him. He's certainly a better option then O'Driscoll.
POC and BOD are both great players and are definitely talismanic, but I think Cullen has a better head for captaincy then either of them. While they are good at the "leading by example" school of captaincy, the Irish team often looks completely rudderless and you have to lay some of the blame at their feet.

My point is more that people claim the captain has to be an automatic pick for his position, but people seem to select a team and then look for a captain out of it. Good captaincy skills should be included when deciding which player to pick for a position - a good captain can raise everyone's game which can be worth more then having a slightly better rugby player in one position.

Was Cullen on the pitch when Leinster decided to play for pride rather than a damage limitation exercise for bonus points against Toulouse last season?

Have you noticed that Munster are a significantly better team when POC & ROG are on the pitch? One thing about DOC is that he is a bit in POC's considerable shadow - he was tremendous when POC was out injured last year - or have you forgotten that POC actually didn't play at all during the group stages of the 07-08 Heineken Cup. :rolleyes:

thehighground

thehighground wrote: »

PS - Goose & RugbyFanatic - we were having a debate on another thread a few days ago where someone claimed that actually winning something is not a big deal and to be a great player is just enough.

BOD does not subscribe to that theory - he wants to win something before he retires.

See with him its a different case,I think.

Bod is not a regular player.
He will never be forgotten by the people in France and the UK and Ireland,for his rugby.

Whereas a player who wasnt as good would be soon forgotten.

But of course he wants to win.

thehighground

anonymous_joe wrote: »

For the record, I think Paul O'Connell's a great leader on the pitch, but a bit suspect at lineout calls, etc, so I don't know if he is a good captain. Phil Vickery for Wasps at the weekend is similarly to O'Connell a born leader and fighter, but made some gash calls. I think O'Connell could do that, I wouldn't want that to happen to him for our sake and above all for his. I'm sure BOD could tell anyone that captaincy's a responsibility not a happy bonus.

But in general, POC has learned from his mistakes (and Munster gets considerable praise on Munster's ability to close out games)!

What bad lineout calls are you referring to (only ones I can think of was on last tour downunder where Message board pundits thought they should have been shorter throws and which were explained that they knew they needed the longer throw to set up a better attacking option for the backs - and all they needed was for one throw to work!

If it was so wrong, surely the Captain would have over-ruled him on the calls anyway, or is it pointless having a named captain anyway?

anonymous_joe

thehighground wrote: »

But in general, POC has learned from his mistakes (and Munster gets considerable praise on Munster's ability to close out games)!

What bad lineout calls are you referring to (only ones I can think of was on last tour downunder where Message board pundits thought they should have been shorter throws and which were explained that they knew they needed the longer throw to set up a better attacking option for the backs - and all they needed was for one throw to work!

If it was so wrong, surely the Captain would have over-ruled him on the calls anyway, or is it pointless having a named captain anyway?

Ah I think O'Connell is a bit rash at times. (So's O'Driscoll sometimes.) He's my favourite Munster player by a hell of a long shot, so I'm not that harsh a critic of him. I've seen him make the odd dodgy call, and the Munster line out's looked a bit weak this season at times.

And does the captain have any say on the line out calls? I honestly don't know.

thehighground

Kara Tender Renter wrote: »

See with him its a different case,I think.

Bod is not a regular player. He will never be forgotten by the people in France and the UK and Ireland,for his rugby. Whereas a player who wasnt as good would be soon forgotten.

But of course he wants to win.

I believe that all competitive sports people want to win trophies & medals (including BOD & Denis Hickie).

Its a great pity that such a classy player as Hickie didn't win a GS or Heineken Cup. There is still some hope for BOD.

bleg

anonymous_joe wrote: »

Potentially - yes. A competent player whose a great captain could be better for a team without a captain than a better player.

For the record, I think Paul O'Connell's a great leader on the pitch, but a bit suspect at lineout calls, etc, so I don't know if he is a good captain. Phil Vickery for Wasps at the weekend is similarly to O'Connell a born leader and fighter, but made some gash calls. I think O'Connell could do that, I wouldn't want that to happen to him for our sake and above all for his.

o connell made a huge call running the final penalty in the HC final last year, look at the tape. he consulted o gara, leamy was shouting at them to go for the posts and o connell and o gara just went for it. it paid off, excellent call.

not many players would have seen it the way they did.

anonymous_joe

bleg wrote: »

o connell made a huge call running the final penalty in the HC final last year, look at the tape. he consulted o gara, leamy was shouting at them to go for the posts and o connell and o gara just went for it. it paid off, excellent call.

not many players would have seen it the way they did.

And it could have gone badly wrong and everyone would moan away about it. Then we'd be hear saying Leamy's the one who knows what to do.

Yesterday Leinster kicked a penalty when I wanted them to go for touch. My mate was certain that the easy penalty was the right call. And it was missed. Ya can never tell.

I reckon it'll be Mike Blair anyway. ^^

bleg

anonymous_joe wrote: »

And it could have gone badly wrong and everyone would moan away about it. Then we'd be hear saying Leamy's the one who knows what to do.

but it did come off i.e. it was the right call and a huge call to make. the fact that it might have gone badly wrong is irrelevant. munster were retaining possession well, didn't want to hand it back to toulouse. o connell (and o gara) knew this, played to his teams strengths and closed out the match. magnificant call.

thehighground

anonymous_joe wrote: »

Ah I think O'Connell is a bit rash at times. (So's O'Driscoll sometimes.) He's my favourite Munster player by a hell of a long shot, so I'm not that harsh a critic of him. I've seen him make the odd dodgy call, and the Munster line out's looked a bit weak this season at times.

And does the captain have any say on the line out calls? I honestly don't know.

Whether you like them or not shouldn't really come into who will make the best captain. Martin Johnson made dodgy calls, I personally don't like Martin Johnson, I've seen POC & DOC completely outplay him when they were the new kids on the block against Leicester('03), but I still think he made a great captain for Leicester, England & the Lions.

As for the tactics, I'm pretty sure that the captain would have some say whether the calls were defensive (short) or attacking (long).

And yes, Munster's lineout isn't as good as it used to be. I think it has something to do with the ELVs and a change of forwards coach. It certainly has improved a bit though.

(btw, if your basing captaincy on skills - the Leinster/Irish backline has not been all-singing and all-dancing for some time now. Is that BOD's fault?)

anonymous_joe

bleg wrote: »

but it did come off i.e. it was the right call and a huge call to make. the fact that it might have gone badly wrong is irrelevant. munster were retaining possession well, didn't want to hand it back to toulouse. o connell (and o gara) knew this, played to his teams strengths and closed out the match. magnificant call.

Thing is, we don't know if it was. Let's say there's a 100% chance that the call will work. Easy to make. Let's say it's 50/50, suddenly you're facing dilemmas. Let's say it's only a 10% chance to pull it off - you're in the realm of luck. So we don't know how good a call it was. (Probably great. :P)

thehighground wrote: »

Whether you like them or not shouldn't really come into who will make the best captain. Martin Johnson made dodgy calls, I personally don't like Martin Johnson, I've seen POC & DOC completely outplay him when they were the new kids on the block against Leicester('03), but I still think he made a great captain for Leicester, England & the Lions.

As for the tactics, I'm pretty sure that the captain would have some say whether the calls were defensive (short) or attacking (long).

And yes, Munster's lineout isn't as good as it used to be. I think it has something to do with the ELVs and a change of forwards coach. It certainly has improved a bit though.

(btw, if your basing captaincy on skills - the Leinster/Irish backline has not been all-singing and all-dancing for some time now. Is that BOD's fault?)

Personal likings are hugely apparent though. No-one's free of bias. ^^

Again in terms of captain's influence, etc, I think every team's going to be different. Different coaches allow different amounts of leeway etc.

The ELVs have had a negative effect on Munster's lineout - but they're good enough players to be able to adapt. I would suggest the forwards coach and the person making the calls are the ones who seem to be making mistakes. Just my opinion.

Regarding shíte backlines - I'd blame the outhalves who set the attacking line, for Leinster the scrum half, above all the backs coach and the captain should certainly come in for some criticism for not changing things. Then again, none of us can really know what has been said between various players and coaches, we can only go on what we see. I think Gaffney has been behind some shíte back play from Ireland and Leinster this season. He's been a great coach before, so I hope things get better.

Chucky the tree

anonymous_joe wrote: »

Did I say that?

anonymous_joe wrote: »

For the record, I think Paul O'Connell's a great leader on the pitch, but a bit suspect at lineout calls, etc, so I don't know if he is a good captain.

Pretty close.

thehighground

anonymous_joe wrote: »

Thing is, we don't know if it was. Let's say there's a 100% chance that the call will work. Easy to make. Let's say it's 50/50, suddenly you're facing dilemmas. Let's say it's only a 10% chance to pull it off - you're in the realm of luck. So we don't know how good a call it was. (Probably great. :P)

Anyone who saw the 33 phases in ball retention, in atrocious conditions in the qualifying stages againsts the Scarlets would know it was the correct call!

Here you go:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kud2hEgn0Tc&eurl=http://7.gmodules.com/ig/ifr?url=http://www.google.com/ig/modules/youtube_igoogle/v2/youtube.xml&nocache=0&up_titl

Personal likings are hugely apparent though. No-one's free of bias. ^^

Only relevant ones in this situation are the Lions' coaches.

The ELVs have had a negative effect on Munster's lineout - but they're good enough players to be able to adapt. I would suggest the forwards coach and the person making the calls are the ones who seem to be making mistakes. Just my opinion.

The ELVs have had a negative effect on everyone's lineouts because of the way they are set up now (and it not mattering how many are in them etc).

Regarding shíte backlines - I'd blame the outhalves who set the attacking line, for Leinster the scrum half, above all the backs coach and the captain should certainly come in for some criticism for not changing things. Then again, none of us can really know what has been said between various players and coaches, we can only go on what we see. I think Gaffney has been behind some shíte back play from Ireland and Leinster this season. He's been a great coach before, so I hope things get better.

TBH, I think the coaching (and tactics) needs to be looked at for Leinster as the Munster backline looked pretty good last Friday night with the Ireland half backs playing! Particularly effective was the skip passes on either side from ROG! It also seems that Leinster just kick the ball away all the time now.